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300 vs 338
- Thread starter Bk2201
- Start date
USMC 77-81
New member
I've shot neither but I can tell you that the 338 was the among the most popular of Elk cartridges here in Northern Idaho for years. A lot of hunters have since switched to the 300, others should be along soon with more personal experience with both. Presently when Elk hunting I go with either the .270 if I expect to be in heavier brush/forest or take the 7 Mag when hunting the clear cuts.
1st Marine division, 3rd Marines
1st Marine division, 3rd Marines
My sincere,respectful answer:
After you have developed the skills to reliably hit an 8 inch paper plate without a bench and sandbags at a measured 500 yards pretty much every time,in the cold,with some wind gusting,your nose running,your eyes watering,and quivering from adrenalin,and maybe breathing hard from 7000 or 8000 ft elevation....
And after you know ballictics and trajectories well enough that you won't need to ask this question...
Then MAYBE you will be ready to shoot at elk at 500 yds.
You will know you are getting there when you know that generally shooting at elk at 500 yds is a bad idea.
I will say that if you have the necessary skills to place your shot at 500 yds,it won't matter diddly if you are shooting a .338 or a .300 mag.You pick a good bullet and place your shot,either will do the job.Dead is dead.The .300 may have alittle trajectory advantage,but you will still have to know your range and correct.
I strongly suggest you think in terms of the 300 to 350 yard shots or less.
The wind,range,etc variables have far less influence at the 300 yardish ranges.
I will further suggest,with all due respect,that at those ranges,a 30-06 or equivalent kills elk just fine.
And it is much easier to keep your eyes open while you squeeze off.
After you have developed the skills to reliably hit an 8 inch paper plate without a bench and sandbags at a measured 500 yards pretty much every time,in the cold,with some wind gusting,your nose running,your eyes watering,and quivering from adrenalin,and maybe breathing hard from 7000 or 8000 ft elevation....
And after you know ballictics and trajectories well enough that you won't need to ask this question...
Then MAYBE you will be ready to shoot at elk at 500 yds.
You will know you are getting there when you know that generally shooting at elk at 500 yds is a bad idea.
I will say that if you have the necessary skills to place your shot at 500 yds,it won't matter diddly if you are shooting a .338 or a .300 mag.You pick a good bullet and place your shot,either will do the job.Dead is dead.The .300 may have alittle trajectory advantage,but you will still have to know your range and correct.
I strongly suggest you think in terms of the 300 to 350 yard shots or less.
The wind,range,etc variables have far less influence at the 300 yardish ranges.
I will further suggest,with all due respect,that at those ranges,a 30-06 or equivalent kills elk just fine.
And it is much easier to keep your eyes open while you squeeze off.
Honestly I'd
a) not shoot at elk at 500y
and
b) go with a 7mm mag rather than a 300 or 338.
There are really no advantages to the larger bore size when hunting game up through elk and moose. For bison and the great bears there is some advantage, but there I'd go larger still - .375 H&H or larger.
a) not shoot at elk at 500y
and
b) go with a 7mm mag rather than a 300 or 338.
There are really no advantages to the larger bore size when hunting game up through elk and moose. For bison and the great bears there is some advantage, but there I'd go larger still - .375 H&H or larger.
Assuming you mean Win magnums, neither is better. The .300 Win Mag with a 180 grain bullet drops 25" at 500 when sighted in 3" high at 100 out of a 24" barrel. Sufficient energy left though. The .338 Win Mag sighted in at 200 with a 225 drops 42.5" at 500 out of a 26" barrel. Ammo cost is about the same.
However, as mentioned, if you can't hit that 8 or 9 inch pie late every time, don't be taking 500 yard shots.
However, as mentioned, if you can't hit that 8 or 9 inch pie late every time, don't be taking 500 yard shots.
With modern range finders and optics bullet drop is a non issue. It is the wind that is the problem.
The kill zone on whitetails is bigger than that. You'd have 18-24" to work with on elk/moose size game.
Anyone with a 1 MOA rifle and a little practice should be able to hit an elk at 500 yards without much trouble. That doesn't mean I would be willing to take that shot, but 500 isn't really that far for an awful lot of people. Things start getting iffy beyond 500.
You don't want to be shooting 180's in a 300WM at longer ranges. There are some 200-215 gr bullets with very high BC's that will easily beat 338. The 7 mags aren't even close.
A 210-215 gr bullet fired from a 300 magnum is leaving the muzzle at about the same speed as 225's from a 338. At the muzzle the 338 has a slight advantage, but beyond 200 yards the much better BC's of the 300 leave it behind.
At 500 yards you'd still have over 2300 ft lbs energy and about 36" drop with a 200 yard zero. You'd still have over 1500 ft lbs of energy out to 900 yards.
f you can't hit that 8 or 9 inch pie late every time, don't be taking 500 yard shots.
The kill zone on whitetails is bigger than that. You'd have 18-24" to work with on elk/moose size game.
Anyone with a 1 MOA rifle and a little practice should be able to hit an elk at 500 yards without much trouble. That doesn't mean I would be willing to take that shot, but 500 isn't really that far for an awful lot of people. Things start getting iffy beyond 500.
You don't want to be shooting 180's in a 300WM at longer ranges. There are some 200-215 gr bullets with very high BC's that will easily beat 338. The 7 mags aren't even close.
A 210-215 gr bullet fired from a 300 magnum is leaving the muzzle at about the same speed as 225's from a 338. At the muzzle the 338 has a slight advantage, but beyond 200 yards the much better BC's of the 300 leave it behind.
At 500 yards you'd still have over 2300 ft lbs energy and about 36" drop with a 200 yard zero. You'd still have over 1500 ft lbs of energy out to 900 yards.
I don't hunt moving meat , but I do hunt X's at 600 yards on a weekly basis. I can share some input on shooting various calibers at 600 yds. I've shot 223, 308, and 300WM and my best compromise is the 308. Not sure if the 308 will have sufficient knock down for elk at 500 yds , but IMO you can find practice ammo all day long and get lots of trigger time with the tried and true 308. You start getting into 7mm RM , 300WM and the ammo gets very expensive. You didn't say of you reload or not, so i'm going to assume you will be shooting factory ammo. The key to pulling off a sucessfull 2 MOA kill shot will be knowing your rifle's specific velocity and doping for your target. there's going to be a substantial difference in POI from 450 to 550 yds , then there is the variable of wind. In my experiences wind at 500 yds shooting a heavier 175gr .30 cal bullet won't factor in largely but your open range condition might be more windy than I experience. The 7mm and 300 mags will offer a nice flat and fast trajectory but they also need practice as a lightweight sporter mag rifle is going to pack a hard kick. 500 yds is a long stretch especially shooting off a bag or sticks (not sure what you intend to use for support out in the field).
I agree hitting is not the issue. Wind, animal behavior and enough retained velocity to kill are the detractors from shooting game at long distance. Especially elk.
I have killed a lot of elk, the furthest was 505 yards with a .338 caliber bullet. But that was after a LOT of practice, a LOT of experience and passing up a LOT of shots inside 400 yards because the shot was not perfect.
Your answer lies not in advice from people who have or have not, but in practice and experience after which comes hope for a lot of luck for the perfect conditions. My kids hit 600 yard targets at the range that are smaller than the kill zone on an elk. I still limit my oldest to about 300 yards in most cases...and his first elk he killed at 350 yards. He is approaching 10K rounds of centerfire.
I have tracked wounded elk over 100 miles over the years that other people shot who lacked the skill to place the shot. Most of those were in the 200-300 yards range, with plenty of gun.
I have killed a lot of elk, the furthest was 505 yards with a .338 caliber bullet. But that was after a LOT of practice, a LOT of experience and passing up a LOT of shots inside 400 yards because the shot was not perfect.
Your answer lies not in advice from people who have or have not, but in practice and experience after which comes hope for a lot of luck for the perfect conditions. My kids hit 600 yard targets at the range that are smaller than the kill zone on an elk. I still limit my oldest to about 300 yards in most cases...and his first elk he killed at 350 yards. He is approaching 10K rounds of centerfire.
I have tracked wounded elk over 100 miles over the years that other people shot who lacked the skill to place the shot. Most of those were in the 200-300 yards range, with plenty of gun.
Roadkill2228
New member
.300 win mag is a much more versatile round. .338s are kind of large medium game dedicated. The 7mms and .30 caps are appropriate for pretty much everything. I don't know that a .338 win will do anything a .300 won't. The bigger .338s are a different story but they're also heavy and hard kicking (the latter being detrimental for learning to shoot accurately at distance, the former being most unwelcome on a long day of elk hunting). .300 or even one of the big 7s is my vote.
There is some great honest answers above. Shooting out past 300 yards is more about the shooter than caliber. I am a 300 fan but rarely need to shoot past 250 yards. I am the first to bring up that my 300 Win is over kill for deer but use it for more power than range/distance. When I shoot past 300 yards, I do it more with a 270 win because its fun and more accurate in my hands with less recoil. Only once have I needed to take a bear out at 275 yards and it was with my 300 win. That 180 grain Power Point just puts the hammer down at that range.
I won't question your marksmanship abilities. That is a question we all have to answer for ourselves. Hopefully we all do this on the range before attempting it on game.
The 300WM will make those hits easier trajectory wise than the .338WM, and will have a little more energy at that range. Your .338 really shines in thicker country for Elk through Kodiak, this by virtue of it's ability to handle heavier bullets and smash heavy muscle and bone from odd angles. Popular in Alaska.
Like everyone else here I will tell you that the 300WM kicks. I can shoot sub minute groups with one, but it is a LOT easier with my '06. Use caution and 180gr bullets, and practice your wind doping a lot OR pass on shots that require it.
Good luck.
The 300WM will make those hits easier trajectory wise than the .338WM, and will have a little more energy at that range. Your .338 really shines in thicker country for Elk through Kodiak, this by virtue of it's ability to handle heavier bullets and smash heavy muscle and bone from odd angles. Popular in Alaska.
Like everyone else here I will tell you that the 300WM kicks. I can shoot sub minute groups with one, but it is a LOT easier with my '06. Use caution and 180gr bullets, and practice your wind doping a lot OR pass on shots that require it.
Good luck.
Bk2201,
Either cartridge will kill elk. So will many others that won't hurt when you bench shoot them.
I've used a 7MM Rem Mag exclusively for elk hunting. A couple years ago I killed a 374 bull that weighted better than 900 pounds. One 160 grain Partition through his heart killed him.
From here on out, I'll be hunting everything, including moose if I'm drawn, with a .270 Win. Cartridge is not as important as what bullets destroy. An elk ain't gonna know what stopped his heart from pumping topside blood supply. An '06 will kill elk just as dead as a .338 Win Mag. The old hunter's saying of a .243 Win in the boiler room is a whole lot better than an '06 to the guts is as valid today as it ever was.
A few years ago the new world record Yukon moose, the largest of the three species, was killed with a .303 British: http://www.boone-crockett.org/news/featured_story.asp?area=news&ID=186
It's all about hunting skills and putting bullets where they need to go.
BTW, at Rocky Mountain altitude, after climbing many ridges, where oxygen is as scarce as honest politicians, 300 yards is a long way. I'd rather shoot big game at a hundred years than 300 yards.
Either cartridge will kill elk. So will many others that won't hurt when you bench shoot them.
I've used a 7MM Rem Mag exclusively for elk hunting. A couple years ago I killed a 374 bull that weighted better than 900 pounds. One 160 grain Partition through his heart killed him.
From here on out, I'll be hunting everything, including moose if I'm drawn, with a .270 Win. Cartridge is not as important as what bullets destroy. An elk ain't gonna know what stopped his heart from pumping topside blood supply. An '06 will kill elk just as dead as a .338 Win Mag. The old hunter's saying of a .243 Win in the boiler room is a whole lot better than an '06 to the guts is as valid today as it ever was.
A few years ago the new world record Yukon moose, the largest of the three species, was killed with a .303 British: http://www.boone-crockett.org/news/featured_story.asp?area=news&ID=186
It's all about hunting skills and putting bullets where they need to go.
BTW, at Rocky Mountain altitude, after climbing many ridges, where oxygen is as scarce as honest politicians, 300 yards is a long way. I'd rather shoot big game at a hundred years than 300 yards.
Six of one half dozen of the other, it'll come down to which you can shoot the best in the end. I've shot both and choose not to shoot either anymore. The 300 Win Mag, in a hunting rifle, has "rattle your teeth" recoil. The 338 has an excessive amount of recoil too in my opinion but it is more of a push rather than the jolt the 300 delivers. You do get more bullet choices with the 30 caliber so that is a plus. As stated above given the choice I'll pick a good 7mm but to answer your question, if I only had those 2 to pick from I'd go with the 300 Win due to it having more bullet choices.
Having shot all 3, I will second the notion that the .338 is more of a push. I have shot several 7mmRM, and while the recoil is certainly manageable, I find it to be very sudden and sharp, more of a quick jab than a push.
I very much agree with San Souci: A well placed bullet in the boiler works trumps a powerful but poorly placed shot every time.
I very much agree with San Souci: A well placed bullet in the boiler works trumps a powerful but poorly placed shot every time.
Dufus,
How far away is "No man's land?"
No rifle cartridge has ability to knock any big game animal off of its feet.
Biology is controlling. Either destroy a big game animal's CNS (brain) or reduce its blood pressure to zero thus depriving its brain of oxygenated blood.
Here's a biological fact: a .30-30 Win will kill elk just as dead as a .300 RUM assuming bullets from either destroy identical parts, and in this case I'm referring to its heart and/or lungs.
Nothing living remains in that conditions sans oxygenated blood to its brain.
I'm good with any cartridge any hunter wants to use. After all, he's doing the hunting, not me. Therefore, he has to use what's right for him. Where he'll cause my brain's synapses to misfire is when he attempts to tell me that his .300 RUM will kill deader than another hunter's .308 Win. It won't.
Then we come to the practical side of big game hunting. At Rocky Mountain altitude, holding steady is not realistic. I have a self-imposed limit of 400 yards. However, before I would take a 400 yard shot at any big game animal high in the Rockies, conditions would have to be perfect. I'd have to have a solid rest. I'd have to have an uninterrupted shot (nothing in the path of my bullet). There would have to be no wind. The animal would have to be standing still as a rock. There would have to be no other animals in front or in back of it. There would have to be no way that I could close the distance: I'd rather shoot at a hundred yards than 400 yards. And I'd have to be certain that my bullet is going to kill as opposed to wound an animal. We know this as ethical hunting.
Big game sniping is not a sport nor is it hunting.
More practical stuff. Big cartridges almost always imply big, heavy guns. From experience, I can tell you that where the air becomes thin as a dime, you'll feel every ounce you're carrying. Worse, bench shooting, where confidence is born, is harsh when shooting big guns. Big guns = big flinch. Flinching does bad things to confidence.
I once watched a studly, well put-up dude trying to sight in his brand new .300 WM. It wasn't working for him, not even close as evidenced by his solid 6" group at a hundred yards and his flinching. He couldn't finish a box of cartridges because his shoulder was too sore. He said he was going to use his uncle's .25-'06, which is what he should have bought.
A couple elk seasons ago, one of the guides in our camp told me that he'd much rather have a hunter show up with a .270 Win he can shoot than a .300 mag he can't. His hunter had a .300 WSM that he couldn't shoot. He missed a huge bull twice: once in the am and once in the pm. Had he put a .270 Win through that bull's heart, he'd would have been done hunting just after dawn of opening day.
Were I accorded a hunting do-over, I'd buy a good-quality .280 Rem and never look back, and it'd be the only big game rifle I'd need for all North American big game hunting. If we were to factor out the .280 Rem's ability to shoot 175 grain bullets that have legendary penetration ability, the .270 Win would be just as good.
There is reason that the .270 Win, .308 Win, '06, and 7MM Rem Mag consistently rank within the top ten of yearly purchases of big game rifles.
How far away is "No man's land?"
No rifle cartridge has ability to knock any big game animal off of its feet.
Biology is controlling. Either destroy a big game animal's CNS (brain) or reduce its blood pressure to zero thus depriving its brain of oxygenated blood.
Here's a biological fact: a .30-30 Win will kill elk just as dead as a .300 RUM assuming bullets from either destroy identical parts, and in this case I'm referring to its heart and/or lungs.
Nothing living remains in that conditions sans oxygenated blood to its brain.
I'm good with any cartridge any hunter wants to use. After all, he's doing the hunting, not me. Therefore, he has to use what's right for him. Where he'll cause my brain's synapses to misfire is when he attempts to tell me that his .300 RUM will kill deader than another hunter's .308 Win. It won't.
Then we come to the practical side of big game hunting. At Rocky Mountain altitude, holding steady is not realistic. I have a self-imposed limit of 400 yards. However, before I would take a 400 yard shot at any big game animal high in the Rockies, conditions would have to be perfect. I'd have to have a solid rest. I'd have to have an uninterrupted shot (nothing in the path of my bullet). There would have to be no wind. The animal would have to be standing still as a rock. There would have to be no other animals in front or in back of it. There would have to be no way that I could close the distance: I'd rather shoot at a hundred yards than 400 yards. And I'd have to be certain that my bullet is going to kill as opposed to wound an animal. We know this as ethical hunting.
Big game sniping is not a sport nor is it hunting.
More practical stuff. Big cartridges almost always imply big, heavy guns. From experience, I can tell you that where the air becomes thin as a dime, you'll feel every ounce you're carrying. Worse, bench shooting, where confidence is born, is harsh when shooting big guns. Big guns = big flinch. Flinching does bad things to confidence.
I once watched a studly, well put-up dude trying to sight in his brand new .300 WM. It wasn't working for him, not even close as evidenced by his solid 6" group at a hundred yards and his flinching. He couldn't finish a box of cartridges because his shoulder was too sore. He said he was going to use his uncle's .25-'06, which is what he should have bought.
A couple elk seasons ago, one of the guides in our camp told me that he'd much rather have a hunter show up with a .270 Win he can shoot than a .300 mag he can't. His hunter had a .300 WSM that he couldn't shoot. He missed a huge bull twice: once in the am and once in the pm. Had he put a .270 Win through that bull's heart, he'd would have been done hunting just after dawn of opening day.
Were I accorded a hunting do-over, I'd buy a good-quality .280 Rem and never look back, and it'd be the only big game rifle I'd need for all North American big game hunting. If we were to factor out the .280 Rem's ability to shoot 175 grain bullets that have legendary penetration ability, the .270 Win would be just as good.
There is reason that the .270 Win, .308 Win, '06, and 7MM Rem Mag consistently rank within the top ten of yearly purchases of big game rifles.