.300 savage based wildcat for scout rifle? or something else?

If you're after a real wildcat...

What kind of wildcat are we talking about:
A wildcat with commercial support? (brass and dies available)
Or a wildcat that requires case forming, custom dies, and a custom (or rare) chamber reamer?

There's quite a difference in cost, between the two approaches.
 
i just think it would be useful to have something that shared a .308 base diameter and rim but was a bit shorter with less case capacity so although there may be less power than a .308 in a shorter barrel, there would also be less waste, less recoil and allow you to make up for it with the extra room for a longer bullet for something more efficient in a shorter barrel
 
i just think it would be useful to have something that shared a .308 base diameter and rim but was a bit shorter with less case capacity so although there may be less power than a .308 in a shorter barrel, there would also be less waste, less recoil and allow you to make up for it with the extra room for a longer bullet for something more efficient in a shorter barrel
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So, Jason, make such a thing! Call it the .30 Argonaut!

....... gven my druthers, I'druther have it in 6.5, 6.75 (.277!) or 7mm for the more efficient bullets .....
 
P.O. Ackley used to make a wildcat cartridge that was a .300 Sav necked down to .270 called the .270 Savage. He claimed around 2700fps with a 130gr bullet out of a 22" barrel. Might be an interesting idea.
 
i agree with jimbob that if i was going to have such a cartrdge fill a role.. id probably go with 6.5 or .270 bullets... one pre-existing wildcat ive looked at... which im suprised isnt a saami cartridge by now is a .308 winchester necked down to .270... basically making the .270 winchester on a .308 case, and with a .308s higher pressure you could have the .270 performance in a short action

another question.. with the 6.5 creedmor which seems to be the best 6.5mm .308 based cartridge to choose from, whats the maximum length bullet that can be used before you start losing case capacity?
 
Could you possibly choose a case that's harder to reload? I mean, these are pretty tricky, with that case neck.
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Totally false info there the .300 Savage isn't hard to reload for. Sure it has a short neck but I get plenty of tension on my bullets I seat. I prefer a flat base bullet over a boat tail out of the Savage because of the short neck but that doesn't mean I can't use them. If I use a BT I just have to put that portion of the bullet below the shoulder.

I guess I don't know what the intended use of the OP's rifle really is. I understand the scout concept and I understand the wanting of an efficient cartridge. I just don't get the need for a 2000+ ft lbs of energy at the muzzle and a sub 20" barrel. The only time I worry about energy is when selecting a rifle to hunt with in Colorado as they have a 1000 ft lbs of energy requirement at 100 yards for all big game with a rifle. Plus I have to agree with everyone else shooting a barrel much shorter than 20" just isnt a pleasure.
 
taylor- part of the reason shooting a short barrel is less than enjoyable is the large case capacities of cartridges designed for longer barrels (.308) produce so much undesirable muzzle blast... I solved this by downloading the 7-08 with a quicker powder to 30/30 velocities. In doing this, there is some wasted space in the -08 case ..... the case would be more efficient if it were smaller, no?



I just don't get the need for a 2000+ ft lbs of energy at the muzzle and a sub 20" barrel.
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Part of the original spec requirements laid out by Col. Cooper were:

"The general-purpose rifle will do equally well for all but specialized hunting, as well as for fighting; thus it must be powerful enough to kill any living target of reasonable size. If you insist upon a definition of 'reasonable size,' let us introduce an arbitrary mass figure of about 1,000 lb (454 kg)."[1]

I don't want to try to tackle a 1,000 lb critter with a pea-shooter.

The specs also require a 1 meter max length ... making for a short barrel.

I prefer a flat base bullet over a boat tail out of the Savage because of the short neck but that doesn't mean I can't use them. If I use a BT I just have to put that portion of the bullet below the shoulder.
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Because the short barrel makes for slower muzzle velocities, efficient bullets are a must. That means boat tails. You can start them just as fast, but they retain velocity (and thus energy) better downrange. It also precludes .30 cal, in my book, as 7mm bullets of the same weight are more efficient..... 6.5's in 140gr are close, but require a 1/8 twist ..... IIRC, you get better velocities at lower pressure the slower the twist rate.....

Cooper wanted a .308 (7-08 where .mil calibers were prohibited) .... I think the 7mm is superior .......
 
jimbob86 said:
taylor- part of the reason shooting a short barrel is less than enjoyable is the large case capacities of cartridges designed for longer barrels (.308) produce so much undesirable muzzle blast
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I very much understand the muzzle blast issues with short barrels. I shot a .280 GNR on a 17.5" including brake, barrel with as both a pistol and carbine on an Encore platform. Think of it as a rimmed 7mm RM shooting 140 grain bullets at 3100 fps based off of the .405 Win cartridge. I hated that barrel and sold it promptly. Plus I have shot several 16" or shorter barreled AR and M-4 rifles.

jimbob86 said:
Part of the original spec requirements laid out by Col. Cooper were:

"The general-purpose rifle will do equally well for all but specialized hunting, as well as for fighting; thus it must be powerful enough to kill any living target of reasonable size. If you insist upon a definition of 'reasonable size,' let us introduce an arbitrary mass figure of about 1,000 lb (454 kg)."[1]

I don't want to try to tackle a 1,000 lb critter with a pea-shooter.

The specs also require a 1 meter max length ... making for a short barrel.
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Thanks for clearing up the ft lb issue however there was no standard set in what you just quoted.


1 meter in lenght is easily accomplished even with a 20" barrel. 13.5" LOP, 5" action length, 20" barrel equals roughly 38.5" and a meter is roughly 39.375". Take the Kimber 84M Montana rifle it weighs in at 5.125 lbs so it meets the weight requirements of the scout but it is too long at 41.25" in lenght. However you could shorten the stock by .63" and the barrel b 1" and be just over the 1 meter mark by less than .25". I don't think the Col will roll over about that.

Great news is that after you cut it down you're under the 5 lb mark. So now when you add a rear ghost ring sight, forward rail, front sight post, 7.5 oz Leupold 2.5X scout scope, aluminum rings, ching sling, light weight bi-pod, and 5 rounds (4 down + 1 in the chamber) you have a sub 8 lbs rifle. Probably one the Col himself would be proud to own.

Too bad that rifle just cost you over $2K to make with all the extra work you just had to do just to fill the requirements. I agree that the OP is overthinking the concept a little too much as once I refreshed on the Col's stanadards I was able to build it on paper in less than 15 minutes.

jimbob86 said:
Because the short barrel makes for slower muzzle velocities, efficient bullets are a must. That means boat tails. You can start them just as fast, but they retain velocity (and thus energy) better downrange. It also precludes .30 cal, in my book, as 7mm bullets of the same weight are more efficient..... 6.5's in 140gr are close, but require a 1/8 twist ..... IIRC, you get better velocities at lower pressure the slower the twist rate.....

Cooper wanted a .308 (7-08 where .mil calibers were prohibited) .... I think the 7mm is superior .......
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I was simply refering to the statement that the .300 Savage was hard to load for, and my prefrence of flat based bulelts because of the short neck. That way I didn't have to seat the BT below the neck to get enough tension to hold the bullet.

However I think ft lb requirements are pretty much usless numbers as it all boils down to accuracy IMO. If you can get a .308 165 grain bullet to 2650 and a 180 grain bullet to go 2500 fps out of a 20" barrel then you still would only be aroud 1000 ft lbs of energy at 450 meters as I looked up Col Cooper criteria for range. You get roughly the same amount of energy out of the 7-08 with a 140 grain bullet traveling 2800 fps at the muzzle. Plus they all exceed 2000 ft lbs at the muzzle.

However you lack frontal diameter which is a plus IMO to the .30 calibers. 1000 ft lbs of energy at that range is deemed too light by most people who hunt elk and you'll rarely see them weight 1000 lbs. Plus a flat based bullet will make that rage very easily, since "scout rifles" aren't long range rifles. The 7mm cartridges don't have a distinct advantage in trajectory at 450 meters either.

BTW my comparisons were made using JBM ballistcis, the .308 165 grain Nosler Partition, .308 180 grain Sierra Pro Huner, and the 7mm 140 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip.
 
Thanks for clearing up the ft lb issue however there was no standard set in what you just quoted.
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However I think ft lb requirements are pretty much usless numbers as it all boils down to accuracy IMO. If you can get a .308 165 grain bullet to 2650 and a 180 grain bullet to go 2500 fps out of a 20" barrel then you still would only be aroud 1000 ft lbs of energy at 450 meters as I looked up Col Cooper criteria for range. You get roughly the same amount of energy out of the 7-08 with a 140 grain bullet traveling 2800 fps at the muzzle. Plus they all exceed 2000 ft lbs at the muzzle.
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There was a 300 meter requirement in there somewher as well, IIRC ..... as well as a provision for rapid reloading (Cooper originally wanted the ability to utilize stripper clips, but as those had pretty much fallen out of favor by the 80's, when he got around to trying to get somebody to make a production model) and a minimum of 2 MOA accuracy.... so, you have to be able to kill a 1,000 lb animal at 300 meters ..... certainly doable with a .308 or 7-08. The problem has always been the weight.... and cutting the barrel seems to be the answer for most of the examples out there..... I would prefer an 18" med/heavy barrel to a 20" barrell ...... maybe fluted to reduce weight, increase surface area for cooling, yet stiffer than a simmilar weight plain contour barrel ......

.... A 16 inch barrel is what I have, though, and it sure makes more a handy weapon at 35 1/2" inches in length... even adding an A.A.C. Hunter on the end of it, it'd be 3 1/2" inches shorter and somewhat lighter than my Remmy 721 .....
 
Agreed. Roughly a 6 inch circle.

Back to the original ".300 Savage based Wildcat for Scout rifle question: How fast can we push the most efficient 6.5 or 7mm hunting bullet out of a 16" barrel using a .300 Savage parent case? Say a 140gr (6.5mm) 168gr (7mm) VLD. And will those give give us 1000+ ft/lbs at 300 meters?

All the data I have seen for the 7mm IHMSA was in short contender barrels.....
 
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