.300 savage based wildcat for scout rifle? or something else?

J

jason41987

New member
i have a bolt action receiver im looking to base a custom project around.. and i want something along the lines of a scout rifle... really like the ruger gunsite scout, so end result is going to be something along the lines of that with a detachable magazine, short barrel, red dot, etc...

so as for cartridges.. its a 2.800 length action so .308 length cartridges maximum... and well, .308 and its derivatives tend to lose energy below 20" barrels, the smaller the diameter the bullet, the more energy is lost...

the reason i thought perhaps .300 savage is it appears you can make the brass for this round from .30-06 brass, and since its a bit shorter of a case you can load it to pressure without a portion of that powder going to waste

that being said another thing i thought about for this case being shorter is the possibility of using really long, high BC bullets in it for a flatter trajectory and more retained energy downrange

so.. would a .300 savage based wildcat be a suitable choice for a 2.800" long action on a rifle thatll be barreled at 16"?... or woulld something else be more efficient?
 
The 300 Savage was developed to yield 30-06 velocities with 150 gr bullets out of a 20" barrel, and at the time it worked very well (not any more because of powder developments and cae volume, but that's for another thread). The 300 Savage was also the model and precursor for the T44 cartridge that eventually became known as both the 7.62X51mm NATO and the commercial 308 Winchester.

That is a long-winded way to say you will not get what you are looking for from the 300 Savage over a 308 Winchester. Generally, you have to look at higher pressures in order to boost velocities out of shorter barrels. If you are set on a short barrel, you might look at the results from the new 30 AR cartridge or a 30 BR to completely burn all of their powder in a shorter tube.

Having said all that, I would think the 300 Savage or the 308 would work well in the application you are looking at, but with a longer barrel. Muzzle blast out of a 16" barrel can be nasty.
 
I think Scorch summed it up well. I agree about the 16" barrels muzzle blast. I'm willing to drag around a bit more barrel to aleviate some of the blast. I'm going to do a shortish Ruger 77, it will likely have a 20" barrel.
 
im not looking to get higher velocities out of shorter barrels.. and have accepted a hit on performance using a .308... my question was if a .308 loses lets say 25% of its power in a shorter barrel (this is just exaggerated) would a round that had less power to begin with, which ultimately isnt as powerful as a .308 lose a lower percentage of its velocity.. meaning the round would be more efficient and better suited for a shorter barrel?...

if so, what round would be most suitable and lose the smallest percentage of its energy in a 16" barrel?
 
My best advice is look up single shot pistol data on the .300 Savage and .308 Win. Most data is from 14" barrels and that will give you a good idea on where to start with powder selection. Take a look as well at the old .308x1.5" wildcat it should provide better than .30-30 performance and not quite .300 Savage.
 
im not looking to get higher velocities out of shorter barrels.. and have accepted a hit on performance using a .308... my question was if a .308 loses lets say 25% of its power in a shorter barrel (this is just exaggerated) would a round that had less power to begin with, which ultimately isnt as powerful as a .308 lose a lower percentage of its velocity.. meaning the round would be more efficient and better suited for a shorter barrel?...
Click to expand...
The .308 will still beat the smaller cartridge, when shooting the same powders.
Tailoring the powder to the cartridge and barrel would be helpful in avoiding wasted energy and excessive muzzle blast, but you can do that with both cartridges.

If velocity is what you want, pick the bigger cartridge. After that, you can load to whatever pressure level you want, with whatever powder you want.

If you have an idea of a particular bullet you want to fire at a particular velocity (for competition, hunting, whatever), pick the cartridge that best accommodates that combination. Don't worry about maximum velocity.
 
How about going the other direction?

A Whisper-type cartridge. Small case with a large, heavy ballistically efficient bullet.
 
I you want more speed from shorter barrels you need to be looking at 30-06 or 300 WSM, not 308 or 300 Savage. I know that goes against the grain of most, but is a fact.

Instead of worrying about how much velocity you are losing from the larger cartridges, concentrate on how much is retained. You will lose slightly more velocity from a 30-06 or 300 WSM, but since they start out with much more speed, they still end up with more from shorter barrels. My 20" 30-06 is still faster than a 24" 308, or a 26"or 28" 300 Savage

Ruger used to offer a 16" 300 WSM. It is obnoxiously loud, but reports from guys who bought them say they are getting 95% of the velocity advertised for 24" barrels.

I've read several of your posts. You are overthinking this stuff. If you want a custom rifle in a wildcat chambering just to be different there is nothing at all wrong with that. Go for it if that is your reasoning. But you can buy stuff off the shelf that will do what you need without all the hassle.
 
I'll take the contrarian side since nobody else did. You weren't really clear on what sort of rifle performance you wanted or needed. If you want 308 performance, like the others have said, you won't quite get it from the 300 Savage. And, with the short barrel you won't even get full 300 Savage performance. All that has been said, but...does that really matter to you? It's your rifle. You'd still have a good cartridge for use in a scout rifle. Lots of people seem fond of the AK round in scout type rifles, and the short barrel version of the 300 Savage should easily outperform the 7.62x39.

As for your short barrel, I'm doing real fine with the 16.5 inch barrel on my Ruger Compact in 260, though like somebody said, the muzzle blast is impressive. And, I don't shoot the heavy bullets.
 
i was looking for a cartridge that would produce atleast 2000ft/lbs at the muzzle from the shorter barrel if possible.. and preferably a smaller projectile than a 30 caliber for higher velocity and less felt recoil
 
Muzzle blast need not be that bad, even with a 16 barrel, if you load carefully/choose a quicker powder than the "top performers" listed in the manuals (they usually use a 24" barrel to develop their loads, which favor slower powders).

What you are looking to do is have pressure peak right at the end of the barrel, without a lot of powder burning outside it.

You will lose some velocity potential, yes. But as somebody on here noted, "Muzzle velocity is a depreciating asset. Mass and Ballistic coefficient are, like diamonds, Forever."

Pick heavy for caliber, efficient bullets, and you will have all the energy you need to any reasonable distance a scout style rifle would be employed at.

Before anybody jumps in there with "But heavy bullets driven hard out of a light rifle will kick harder!!!!!!111111!" I'll say, yes, they will, and I'll tell you to man up: It's not like it's a .460 G&A Special or anything.

I'm looking to see if I can drive a 168gr Berger VLD out of my 7-08 Ruger Frontier @ 2500 f/sec without wrecking anything..... that'll yield 2300+ ft/lbs at the muzzle, and about 1450 at 400....
 
Last edited:
i was looking for a cartridge that would produce atleast 2000ft/lbs at the muzzle from the shorter barrel if possible.. and preferably a smaller projectile than a 30 caliber for higher velocity and less felt recoil
Click to expand...

That is pretty much the definition of the medium size 6.5mm cartridges.
A 6.5x55 Swede is just about perfect but won't run in an AR10 action.
A .260 Rem, 6.5 Creedmoor, or 6.5 Lapua will.
The 6.5 Grendel won't quite make 2000 ft lbs but was designed to fit the AR15 and would be hard to beat for your game.
 
this is for a rifle for a 2.800" action, standard .308 length, so i could go for a .260 remington or 6.5 creedmor.. tune the load for faster burning powders to squeeze as much energy out of them as i can.. id still have over 2000ft/lbs at the muzzle i believe, but the added ballistic coefficiency should make up for it

which leads me to the next question (comparison of 2.800 length 6.5mm cartridges) but thats another discussion
 
I looked into the 6.5's too .... but the most efficient bullet I could find in deer weight hunting bullets was the 7mm 168 gr VLD .... .... and there was that 7-08 stting there on the rack, perfect for my currnet needs ...... so why buy a 6.5 I sez to me, when I already stock .284 bullets for that 7x57?
 
If I'm not mistaken, it was experimentation with the 300 Savage , maybe by the Brits, that led to the .308 Winchester. Save a few decades and cut to the 7.62 x 51. I think the 7-08 is swell. Case volume is the boogerman with .30 cal. and long bullets, but the ballistic coefficients really take off.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top