.30 Newton

The .256 Newton shoots a .264" bullet.

Either he did not want to use a funny furrin metric designation, did not think Americans would buy into a new number like .264; or he was traditional in nomenclature by bore diameter rather than bullet diameter. Or all of the above.
 
There is a belted round based on the .338 Mag and came out even before the .300 Win. Mag. It is the .308 Norma Mag. It is also refered to as the ‘.30-.338 Win. Mag.’ Winchester did not like them using there case and beating them to a .30 cal mag. so they took the .338 and moved the neck forward to get a little more powder in it to get higher velocity hence born the .300 Win. Mag.
Click to expand...


As Trapper L pointed out the 30-338 Winchester and the 308 Norma are not the same. Most everyone believed that Winchester would standardize the 30-388 as their next 30 caliber magnum, this was not the case they did indeed move the shoulder forward on the 338 and produced the 300 Winchester mag, early criticized for having too short a neck to be accurate (this has not proven to be the case).

The 30-338 Winchester and the 308 Norma are great cartridges, very accurate and fairly efficient.
 
Mike, sorry for your loss.

I enjoy your posts, and the cheerful mania for cartridge history that they show.
:wave: :wave:
 
Same here Mike, sorry to hear about your dad. It's not fun losing a parent. I lost two dads, the real one and my step dad. Both were great men. I'm sure yours was too. I look forward to bantering with you when you get back.

Col Whelen didn't have anything to do with the 35 Whelen? Now there's an aurguement that's been going on for decades.
 
Mike and Trapper

Mike sorry to hear of your loss also.

I read/heard somewhere the 30 newton was based on the 8x68 Schuler case, at least that was what some folks were using to form Newton cases with.

I'm away visiting right now also and away from my manuals also. I won't be back home until the end of next week.

Hope you keep the thread going till then.

Best wishes, Bill
 
Thanks, guys, but some recent developments have diminished the sadness I feel at my Father's passing and have replaced them with white hot rage at the financial fiasco in which he's left my Mother.

I think Mom is going to end up losing the house that's been in my family since 1943.

Certainly off topic for this thread...
 
Mike,

Good luck with working out the finances, I am sorry to hear about your loss and the trials you are going through with your family.

Again I wish you well.
 
35 Newton

Good morning

My wife just recently sent this forum to me as I recently came across 8 boxes of 30 and 35 Newton brass and reloading dies. 15 years ago I tried to build the awesome 35 and could not find any brass as all have experienced.

Not knowing what the stuff was worth I asked the kid who called me what he wanted and he said $80. for everything. A quick e-mail to a cartridges of the world collector and I was pretty happy to say the least.

Anyway, I am loading 72 grains of Imr 4350 behind a 250 grain Hornady. Using the same powder charge with the 275 grain bullet as well.

On page 474 of P.O. Ackleys Volume 1 book there are many different loads data that you can apply too your 30 Newton as well. Cases are available
from two different sources but I do not remember who they are right off the top of my head. Talk to Dave at C&H tool and die and for $75. he makes an awesome sizing die. I just took some measurments and dropped some powder in both the .358 Norma case and the 35 Newton (IMR 4350) and the internal's of the two cases are similar with the Newton case holding more powder. 85 grains to the bottom of the neck!


Hope this helps

Neal
 
Hammer,

What make is the brass?

If it's the old Western Cartridge Company brass, you might well want to anneal the necks and shoulders before you attempt to load/shoot it.

That brass hasn't been made since just before WW II, and time can take a pretty heavy toll on necked cases from that era if they're not first annealed.

72 grain of 4350... What does that give you across the chronograph, about 2,500-2,600 fps?


Just remember one thing...

P.O. Ackley's powder data is now DECADES old.

Treat it accordingly and start at the BOTTOM of his recommended load list and then start to work your way up.
 
Hi Mike and Thanks for the reminder!

I forgot to post the information on Ackley's loading date. I am currently
putting a brake on the 16" Encore pistol barrel for the Newton so I do not know yet what the velocity will be. The previous owner had extensive
load data on most of the boxes so I have duplicated some of the loads.

The brass is all Speer brass. But you are right on with most of the older brass.

Neal
 
Ah, yes, I made a mistake in my previous message. It was Richard Speer who made a big run of the brass in the 1950s, not Fred Huntington.

Supposedly VERY good brass.

"I am currently putting a brake on the 16" Encore pistol barrel for the Newton..." :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

I'm glad you're in Alaska!
 
Mike Regarding "glad I am in Alaska"?

Are you referring to something about a shot from the Newton being heard around the world?

I currently hunt with the same 16" barrel in .338 X 06 and the 35 Whelan AI
using 180's-225 grain bullets. The light load Newtons (72gr) are going to be right in the same ball park. The difference is a much bigger case so I can fill until I ???

The .416 Taylor however has me wondering . Using a massive Vais
brake on this one so hopefully " hopefully" things go well. I should be finished with them in the next couple weeks.

Neal
 
Mike

In the last 6>8 years the only companies I could find producing Schuler brass were Hirtenberger and RWS. Somewhere in the rumor mill I heard Hirtenberger was bought out, by I think RWS.

I bought 200 rounds while the getting was good. Also bought some 6,5x68 loaded ammo from Century Arms, but they aren't selling it anymore. That stuff was really wimpy and wouldn't even fireform to Ackley Improved. The boxes they came in sure were pretty though. Green, Black and Red.

There is a company in Maryland called Quality Cartridge that could probably produce that brass. I had them make a run of 275 Rigby headstamped brass
for me. They do special order type stuff.

Best wishes, Bill
 
I have been waiting for several months now for Graf to get their foreign brass
in. Bosnia I think is what the tech said. They have listed a full line of brass it seems so if its of RWS quality this will be a good thing. Noble was purchase last year? by another company in the U.S. I have spoken with these guys and they have all the RWS inventory stored in boxes in the back
room. I am purchasing at old prices.

The X68 brass can be used for Newton cases according to my die maker.
Close enough measurements that I would use it.

Neal
 
Billy,

Schuler brass?

Maybe I'm missing something, but where did that line of cartridges come into a discussion about the .30 Newton?

Is there a Schuler case that you can form into a .30/.35 Newton?

Oh! Duh. Sorry, yes, you mentioned the 6x68 Schuler. Sorry, brain ain't functioning quite what it was a month ago. This past month has been entirely too stressful.
 
I'm entering this discussion late, but I hope to make a contribution.

There are two kinds of Newton rifles. The first (pre-WWI) is an amazingly modern, well designed rifle. The second (post WWI), less so. The second model can be recognized instantly by the Enfield type dog leg bolt handle and the double set triggers, which face in opposite directions.

The first type has a safety on the side of the bolt sleeve which operates from front to rear. It has a straight bolt handle, low enough to clear the lowest scope mount. Both models have a unique takedown feature, by which the hinged floorplate is used as a wrench to dismount the front guard screw, allowing the barrelled action to be removed from the tang, which remains paart of the stock. Triggers and bottom metal remain with the stock also, allowing the rifle to be packed and carried in a case no larger than that used for a dismounted double barrel shotgun.

The .30 Newton cartridge was unique to the Newton rifle. What was later referred to as the .30 Belted Newton was simply someone's idea of giving an impressive sounding name to the unimpressive sounding .30/.338 Winchester.
It and the .308 Norma Magnum are practically identical with each other and the .30 Newton in case capacity and performance.

Comparative case capacity in grains of water: .30 Newton=89.20; .30/.338=84.41; .308 Norma Magnum= 85.78 (source: Handloader's Manual of Cartridge Conversions). As you can see, the larger Newton case should accomdate any load listed for the other two smaller cases, but I would proceed with caution, given the age of your rifle.

I have four Newton rifles, including a .30 Newton, which I have so far not shot. Two of the other three are .256 Newtons, which I have shot a good bit and am quite pleased with. The similarity of Newton's cartridge to the .270 Winchester should be obvious.

Newton was a firearms innovator, responsible for the design of the .22 Savage Hi-Power, the .250-3000 Savage and the .300 Savage, all radical improvements over their contemporary cartridges. The .256 Newton was an attempt to make a commercial cartridge out of the .25 Niedner, which was simply the .30-'06 necked down to .25 caliber. Newton's German barrel makers were not set up to manufacture .25 caliber (.257") barrels, but they could supply 6.5mm (.264") barrels, which Newton chose to refer to by their bore diameter (.256").

Many of his rifle features were incorporated in the Model 70 Winchester when it came on the market in the 1930's. Unfortunately, his business skills did not match his innovatation and he was jinxed by the outbreak of World War I, just as he was getting his rifle business started, which cut him off from his German barrel supply.

I think you will enjoy your .30 Newton, but I also think a more robust stock than the one originally furnished might be called for. The recoil may be more than the stock can stand.
 
I forgot to add, Cornell Publications (abbybooks@comcast.net) has reprints of the 1915 Newton catalog, a 175 page pamphlet which offers all kinds of information on Newton rifles and cartridges. Cost: $13.95.
 
Newtons

re 256 Newton; it is named after the bore diameter,the groove diameter is 264,a cartridge well ahead of it's time.designed by the ballistic genius, Charles Newton, a Buffalo N.Y. lawyer.In 1912, the slowest burning rifle powder was about as fast as IMR 4064.Using a 3006 case just necked down to 6.5 mm. would have been overbore.As to the 30 newton,Look up "CARTIDGE CONVERSIONS",I believe that they will use the 8 MM Schuler as parent brass.I have seen Belted H and H brass used with the belts turned off on a lathe.After WWII, Vernon Speer had a run of 30 and 35 Newton brass made.The 30 Belted Newton was an attempt tho duplicate 30 Newton ballistics in available brass.For shooting, you may want to restock, the original stock 95 years old may not be up to recoil and other stresses,and your shoulder,WILL NOT enjoy a narrow steel buttplate slamming it.It would also be criminal to alter an original with a recoil pad.
 
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