30 Carbine equals 357 mag from lever gun?

And a semi-auto magazine fed rimmed cartridge would be a pain to design and keep running.
Click to expand...

Like the .22LR??
:rolleyes:

Desert Eagle and Coonan have pretty well shown it can be done in .357 Magnum. The SVT40 (and others) have shown it can be done in rifles. The BREN gun (and some Soviet designs) show it can be done in a LMG.

Feeding a rimmed round through a semi or full auto action is not the virtually impossible task many make it out to be. Yes, it takes a different and more complicated approach than a rimless round, but it can, and has been done, A LOT!

The main problem with designing and making a semi auto .357 Mag carbine is essentially there is no demand, and no matter which way you overcome the engineering challenges, you aren't going to please everyone.

Low demand, because there are so many other choices currently, that cover the niche the .357 fills in a carbine. I don't see how you can build a semi .357 carbine with the easy handling lines of a lever gun AND a 10 round detachable box mag, that people would accept in terms of looks, performance AND COST.

You're welcome to try, maybe you can make it a viable proposition. So far as I know, no one has, so the field is open. Good Luck.
 
rightside said:

Ole' Bill ain't doing much talking these days.


(Let me know if you get a reply!)
Click to expand...

Need a ouija board to get a response from him. Anyway, if there's a market and a profit from it, Ruger will make it. Remember that it costs $$$ and lost revenue when a production line is halted, tooling changed and then another model is made.

That's one of the reason why the XGI (7.62 mm version of the Mini-14) was never made. It cost $1 mil just to tool up and Bill Ruger figured he could make $1 mil by continuing production of the Mini-14. Why spend money when you don't have to?
 
Sorry guys, I meant Mike Ruger, current CEO of Ruger and you can send him a message by going to Ruger's site and clicking "Tell the CEO" at the bottom.

So you are comparing a 30 Carbine 110FMJ to a 357Mag rifle with a 125gr SP or HP?
I don't think they are even in the same league.
Are there 125 gr .357 FMJ bullets?
Click to expand...
I guess my post #3 wasn't clear. I'm comparing 110grn, .308 bullets with a BC of .166 with 158grn, .357 bullets with a BC of .177.

Yes, there are plenty of 125grn RN 357mag bullets. It's the bullet's shape and weight that affects BC and that makes for a good comparison ballistically over longer ranges.
 
Last edited:
The 357 is a great round but absolutely useless at penetrating Chinese Communist padded cotton uniforms.

Should be made in 1911A1 configuration instead, that will be far superior.
 
What about a 357Sig or 10mm carbine? Both rimless and should benefit from the longer barrel. The 10mm would be like a modern day 401SL.
 
Everything gets a velocity increase from a longer barrel, even loads optimized for handgun barrel lengths. How much of an increase varies.

The problem with a semi carbine in .357 Sig or 10mm is there is no purpose built carbine for them, and adaptation of existing designs is ...cumbersome.

I expect you could do it with an AR, the drawback being a lot of excess..space and material.

Blow back is possible, but would have to be too heavy to be popular, if even practical. So, locked breech is the way to go, but its still going to be heavier, more complex, and more expensive than alternatives (like lever guns)

Also I would be quite surprised if the .357 Sig matches the .357 Magnum outside of the 125gr load in any barrel length.
 
Yeah I was thinking something along the lines of the Ruger pistol cartridge carbines or Marlin Camp Guns of the past. I wouldn't expect the Sig to outperform the Magnum but I think it would easily surpass a similar rifle in 9mm. 9x23 comes to mind also. I had a 9mm Camp Gun years ago, it was a really fun way to burn through one hell of a lot of 9mm ammo!
 
Warning... thread drift

Some anecdotal information, or grist for the mill I suppose. I had an acquaintance who was a cop in Oklahoma years ago. They had M1 Carbines as patrol rifles. He was called out to dispatch a rabid dog. He told me he shot that dog several times with the carbine, and it would scream and yell and what have you and finally went down.

-This could be a testament to poor marksmanship, or it could be evidence of poor performance from that cartridge. I wasn't there. However, having observed him shoot other rifles, I concluded for my purposes that the cartridge itself did not perform very well.

I have shot coyotes with the 357 mag from a long gun, and put them down with one shot. I know that it is an effective cartridge in that application.

FWIW.
 
-This could be a testament to poor marksmanship, or it could be evidence of poor performance from that cartridge. I wasn't there. However, having observed him shoot other rifles, I concluded for my purposes that the cartridge itself did not perform very well.
Click to expand...

I'd say there isn't enough information given to support that conclusion.

First off, we don't know what ammo was used. Odds are even or better it was FMJ, which is never a good performer on smaller animals. '

Second, there is no mention of where the bullets hit, and even good shots MISS sometimes. And while it is quite possible the cartridge didn't perform well (because of an improper bullet for the target), It's also possible they weren't good shots, despite the shooter being skilled.

As an example, one time, ages ago, a friend was visiting, we were plinking off the back deck, and got a call from the neighbor to come over and dispatch a skunk. My friend was using a Marlin .357 Mag carbine. I was wearing (and not planning to use) a Ruger Blackhawk .45Colt.

Range was short (20-30 feet), my friend shot, skunk "hunched" and continued on. Second shot, same result. 3rd shot must have clipped the spine, as skunk's back legs stopped working. At this point, my friend asked me to finish the skunk. (said he was worried about ricochet..) Small argument, but I took over. One round (in the head) was all that was needed.

My friend, who was a big fan of, and a good shot with the .357 lever gun, failed miserably that day. Poor choice of ammo (158gr SWC Win Luballoy is NOT good for small game, it just sails right through), and poor shot placement (all his shots went in behind the diaphragm) led to a wounded animal that should have been, and could have been dispatched with a single WELL placed shot.

The rifle was "on", he was a good shot, but for some reason, he couldn't make a good shot on that skunk. Now if I just said "shot 3 times and not dispatched" you might conclude the .357 "failed", but the reality is that it didn't fail, it wasn't allowed to succeed.

One round in the right spot would have done it. One round of a JHP probably would have done it very impressively. Multiple shots, and not getting the job done was the fault of the shooter, not the cartridge, in this case.
 
.30 carbine v. .357/125

I've shot quite a bit of .30 carbine FMJ at paper. I've shot .357/125 from a Marlin lever carbine at all sorts of ferals and pests. Given my lack of field experience with the carbine on game, I can't say how effective a .30carbine HP might be as a field round.

I can tell you with much certainty that the .357/125 from a carbine is grim death on critters around 100 lbs and under. The 125 JHP, driven 500 fps or so faster than its design threshold for expansion, is plain destructive, absolutely violent. I've no doubt it would serve well as a SD and medium hunting load as well, but I'd use a heavier bullet on deer myself. I'm thinking that 2000 fps for the .357/125 is a conservative estimate, and one might just push the .357/110 gr slug even faster. My manuals show 23---2400 fps as possible w/ the 110, can't say what factory ammo would do.

The rim on the .357 (or any rimmed ctg) as an auto loader is the issue. I've read somewhere that the Duraganov mag, and the PSL mag, which used the rimmed x54R cartridge, took some serious design work. The Brits made the .303 (also rimmed) work in the Bren gun, as well as their 10 rd SMLE bolt rifle. And S&W had a taget auto that fed rimmed .38 wadcutters ,and the big Coonan auto pistol makes the .357 rim work too. So it can be done. Ruger solved the issue with their first semi .44 carbine by using a tube/shotgun/lever style mag, and the rotary box with the second version.(M99?)

What the heck do I know, but I'm thinking that the rotary box, ala 10/22 second gen .44 carbine M99, might be worked out to serve as a higher capacity extended version, like the more recent hi-caps that serve in the 10/22 family and are so popular these days. Had Ruger done that with the second gen .44 carbine, and painted it black with a rail, had a folding pistol gripped stock as an optoin, and it might well have sold better. Coopers "Thumper" , from Ruger. Use the wood stock and a flush 5 rd mag, and us brush hunters would have the carbine we like too.

The other issue is demand. Ruger stopped their SA pistol cal carbines, the PC , and both generations of .44, cause they apparently could not sell enough of them. I suspect they would not sell many .357's either. I believe the cowboy shooters, and the link to the old west, still carries the lever carbines in .38/.357. There is no such link to the mag pistol caliber SA carbines, who have to compete with full blown AR types and cheaper to shoot 9mm types.
 
It's close as long as you stay with light bullets and stay out of the boutique ammo. Let the 357 breath a little so to speak and it'll do 2000 with a 158.
Click to expand...

Right on. Yes I really like my M1 Carbine and it's good enough for many occasions but with such as Buffalo Bore .357s the 18 inch lever action walks away from the Carbine in power.

Deaf
 
I'd say there isn't enough information given to support that conclusion.

First off, we don't know what ammo was used. Odds are even or better it was FMJ, which is never a good performer on smaller animals. '
Click to expand...

Yep. Nor will we ever get any more information. Dude died in the late 90's. I don't remember details anymore from his story, it was so long ago. Nonetheless, "for my purposes," based on his story, I have concluded that the carbine round is not a good choice for shooting rabid dogs. I've seen this man make some remarkable shots, and can vouch for his truthfulness if you like, and I feel confident that if he were missing his target, he would have told me so. You are free to conclude anything you like.

Nonetheless, I do have personal experience with the 357 in a lever gun on coyotes. It is a remarkably effective cartridge/firearm combination in that application. Granted none I shot were rabid (that I know of), which may be a mitigating factor, but they were canids with similar structure to other canids, and they go down right smartly when shot with a 357 magnum 160 grain RNFP cast bullet. Probably much more smartly with a hollow point.
 
Why would a cast RNFP be so much more effective than a HP? Penetration shouldn't be an issue here, pistol bullets at rifle velocities land like a bomb. I had an H&R Topper in 44 magnum that I was loading 200gr Hornady HP's. These were incredibly destructive on varmints and feral animals. Would have ruined a deer.
 
MVC-034F.jpg

The one on the left has;
-Higher pressure
-More case capacity (if I'm not mistaken)
-More OAL flexibility (max bullet weight)
-Larger bore diameter (powder energy efficiency for a given barrel length)

Not sure why there'd even be a question (unless this is yet another "that widdle round couldn't even punch a Chicom's wool jacket" nonsense query --file that with the NYC 9mm's that supposedly couldn't get through duck cloth :rolleyes:)

TCB
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top