The reason I say I have .003 headspace is because I can get a .003 feeler gauge in between the case head and the breech of the firearm in a case that has no primer in it and still close the frame snugly.
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30-30AI data with Leverevolution powder
- Thread starter rickt300
- Start date
The reason I say I have .003 headspace is because I can get a .003 feeler gauge in between the case head and the breech of the firearm in a case that has no primer in it and still close the frame snugly.
We have had entirely too many discussions on the terminology of headspace.
I suggest you use the search function and review some of them.
I understand what you are trying to say.
If you want to be technically correct,regarding the term "headspace"in your 30-30 AI Contender.,its the measurement from the breech face to the chamber surface the rim stops going forward against. If you measured it,it would be about .063 or so. Headspace is purely in the gun.
The .003 you describe is properly called "head clearance",.
Its no big deal,but it doesn't hurt to use the right terms.
So in effect you are saying that headspace includes the rim thickness. Odd that headspace is not measured from the shoulder of a rimless case to the breach or bolt face.We have had entirely too many discussions on the terminology of headspace.
I suggest you use the search function and review some of them.
I understand what you are trying to say.
If you want to be technically correct,regarding the term "headspace"in your 30-30 AI Contender.,its the measurement from the breech face to the chamber surface the rim stops going forward against. If you measured it,it would be about .063 or so. Headspace is purely in the gun.
The .003 you describe is properly called "head clearance",.
Its no big deal,but it doesn't hurt to use the right terms.
How do you know I am not already headspacing off of the shoulder? To add then including the rim thickness of a Winchester case I get .062, the rim being .059.
OK. I'll give this one last shot,then you can call it anything you want.
As I already suggested,search "headspace" and review what has already been discussed. The dead horse has been beaten down to a flat greasy spot.
I'm not interested in an ego based whizzing contest. I was gently,respectfully trying to educate you on a fine,but importsnt point.
Your 30-30 was designed the headspace on the rim.The headspace gauges,GO and NO GO, will represent the high and low limit for the breech face to the rim recess. You can cut the chamber properly or check headspace withoutnhavng a round of ammo within 100 miles. Headspace is entirely within the gun and its about building the gun to a standard.
Not all guns headspace on the rim.Some headspace on the shoulder,some on a belt,and some on the case mouth.
In each of those systems,we are taking about the feature that controls how far the cartridge can move forward off of the breech face.
The headspace dimension is from the breech face to whatever chamber feature limits the case forward travel If you choose to use the shoulder,thats fine. You probably won't have a SAAMI correct headspace gauge. That's OK.
As the gun isn't going to change,you are concerned with handloading the ammo to freely load and lock,yet you want to minimize case stretch. All good. You are using a feeler gauge to check HEAD CLEARANCE,not headspace. You are doing it so you can tune your sizng die to optimize your AMMUNITION. Headspace is purely n the gun and has nothing to do with ammunition.
Now,once again, I only mentioned the terminology to help you out.
In post#12,I quote Reynolds
Reynolds had you there. It was apparent you did not have the terminology quite down. That's why I tried to help you out.
Its not personal,and I don't want to play whizzing contest.You may take it or leave it.
As I already suggested,search "headspace" and review what has already been discussed. The dead horse has been beaten down to a flat greasy spot.
I'm not interested in an ego based whizzing contest. I was gently,respectfully trying to educate you on a fine,but importsnt point.
Your 30-30 was designed the headspace on the rim.The headspace gauges,GO and NO GO, will represent the high and low limit for the breech face to the rim recess. You can cut the chamber properly or check headspace withoutnhavng a round of ammo within 100 miles. Headspace is entirely within the gun and its about building the gun to a standard.
Not all guns headspace on the rim.Some headspace on the shoulder,some on a belt,and some on the case mouth.
In each of those systems,we are taking about the feature that controls how far the cartridge can move forward off of the breech face.
The headspace dimension is from the breech face to whatever chamber feature limits the case forward travel If you choose to use the shoulder,thats fine. You probably won't have a SAAMI correct headspace gauge. That's OK.
As the gun isn't going to change,you are concerned with handloading the ammo to freely load and lock,yet you want to minimize case stretch. All good. You are using a feeler gauge to check HEAD CLEARANCE,not headspace. You are doing it so you can tune your sizng die to optimize your AMMUNITION. Headspace is purely n the gun and has nothing to do with ammunition.
Now,once again, I only mentioned the terminology to help you out.
In post#12,I quote Reynolds
I know what happens when a rifle is fired.
You might want to educate yourself on a Contender. Please "educate" me on how I misunderstand your Contender. I am sure it will go something like "The primer ignites the powder. The primer is slightly pushed rearward before the pressure fully expands the brass and in the process of completely filling the chamber re-seats the primer." You must tell me how you have a headspace of .003. That will indeed be an education. Saami minimum is .063.
Reynolds had you there. It was apparent you did not have the terminology quite down. That's why I tried to help you out.
Its not personal,and I don't want to play whizzing contest.You may take it or leave it.
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HiBC is correct on the terminology. From the SAAMI Glossary:
and
The problem is that several published sources tell people head clearance is actually headspace. That's why SAAMI said it is commonly confused; people can look the erroneous definition up in a number of places. I've run into them before. All I can say about that is that SAAMI definitions are the ones the industry agrees on by having its member company's representatives vote to adopt them.
All that said, RickT300's use of the 30-30 starting load was maybe a little on the high side, but is not far off. A good rule of thumb for rifle powders in changing case capacity while leaving everything else the same, is to take the ratio of the new case volume to the smaller case volume, square it, then take the cube root of that square to use as a powder charge multiplier to get close to the same peak pressure. It's not exact and isn't the same number you want in small capacity handgun cases, but in this instance, it agrees with QuickLOAD very well.
So:
If the 30-30 case water overflow capacity is 45 grains of water then a Sierra 150 grain FN bullet seated to 2.550 COL leaves 38.2 grains of water capacity under the bullet (powder space), and the 30-30 AI with 49.2 grains case water overflow capacity has 42.4 grains of water capacity under the bullet, that's a ratio of 1.11 to 1. Then, ³√(1.11²) is 1.072. The starting load for LVR in the 30-30 from Hodgdon is 35 grains, and 35×1.02=37.5 grains would be the expected starting load in the AI version. Multiplying the same factor times the maximum 30-30 load, 1.02×38.5 grains = 41.2 grains, so 41.2 grains is the expected maximum for providing the same peak pressure as is in the .30-30AI as was provided by 38.5 grains in the 30-30 with the same bullet and the same COL.
SAAMI said:HEAD CLEARANCE
The distance between the head of a fully seated cartridge or shell and the face of the breech bolt when the action is in the closed position. Commonly confused with headspace.
and
SAAMI said:HEADSPACE
The distance from the face of the closed breech of a firearm to the surface in the chamber on which the cartridge case seats.
The problem is that several published sources tell people head clearance is actually headspace. That's why SAAMI said it is commonly confused; people can look the erroneous definition up in a number of places. I've run into them before. All I can say about that is that SAAMI definitions are the ones the industry agrees on by having its member company's representatives vote to adopt them.
All that said, RickT300's use of the 30-30 starting load was maybe a little on the high side, but is not far off. A good rule of thumb for rifle powders in changing case capacity while leaving everything else the same, is to take the ratio of the new case volume to the smaller case volume, square it, then take the cube root of that square to use as a powder charge multiplier to get close to the same peak pressure. It's not exact and isn't the same number you want in small capacity handgun cases, but in this instance, it agrees with QuickLOAD very well.
So:
If the 30-30 case water overflow capacity is 45 grains of water then a Sierra 150 grain FN bullet seated to 2.550 COL leaves 38.2 grains of water capacity under the bullet (powder space), and the 30-30 AI with 49.2 grains case water overflow capacity has 42.4 grains of water capacity under the bullet, that's a ratio of 1.11 to 1. Then, ³√(1.11²) is 1.072. The starting load for LVR in the 30-30 from Hodgdon is 35 grains, and 35×1.02=37.5 grains would be the expected starting load in the AI version. Multiplying the same factor times the maximum 30-30 load, 1.02×38.5 grains = 41.2 grains, so 41.2 grains is the expected maximum for providing the same peak pressure as is in the .30-30AI as was provided by 38.5 grains in the 30-30 with the same bullet and the same COL.
All I can say is you are one of the best on all the internet forums as for explaining things with good information. I shot up the two boxes I had loaded with the 41.0 grains of LVR and 150 gr. Speer FN's so I could load fresh ammo for this year. Still shot great with no issues. I have a new canister of LVR so I am working back up though this time I am hoping for an accurate load around 2400 fps. The Speer FN seemed a bit soft on a couple of medium size hogs I shot a week ago so I am hoping slowing them down a bit will help.
I am curious, having owned a T/C Contender Super 14 chambered in 30-30 years ago, why you are choosing to use a flat nose bullet? One of the purported advantages of the Contender was the ability to load pointy spitzer bullets with superior Ballistic coefficients, and if you are getting close to .300 Savage velocity level, wouldn’t a simple answer be a Speer Hot Cor 150 gr spitzer?
Rickt300,
Thanks.
Glad the load has worked out for you. If the bullets seem soft on hogs and your range isn't great enough to require a high ballistic coefficient, you could go in another direction and look at hard, wide flat-nose solid projectiles either in very hard cast or in copper. They make surprisingly large wounds. The 140 and 160-grain very hardcast (Bhn 21+) Beartooth bullets offerings are one possibility. The third post here lists some sources of copper solids with this shape.
Thanks.
Glad the load has worked out for you. If the bullets seem soft on hogs and your range isn't great enough to require a high ballistic coefficient, you could go in another direction and look at hard, wide flat-nose solid projectiles either in very hard cast or in copper. They make surprisingly large wounds. The 140 and 160-grain very hardcast (Bhn 21+) Beartooth bullets offerings are one possibility. The third post here lists some sources of copper solids with this shape.
Got a bunch of them and they shoot really well. I'm using it mostly for a woods gun anyway which is why I don't mind slowing the bullet down a bit. That Contender carbine is easy to sling over my shoulder and climb into a tree stand. I really had no idea that the new powders could get that much velocity until I tried it.
I shot my 30-30 AI for the first time today
The range shut down for a few months over covid, just when I was about to fireform a bunch of 30-30 brass, and they've re-opened now.
So I'm on it.
This is a 14" Contender with a factory .30-30 barrel that was re-chambered
It has a pretty long throat so COAL is 2.92" with the bullet contacting the rifling, using Hornady 150 gr tipped bullets DON'T set very deep into the neck -maybe just 3/16"
I was reviewing old threads containing load data and this one came up and I made a point of it to check the primer protrusion after firing.
It ended that regardless of my powder selection, there was no case set-back.
I used what load data I could find and loaded some up with LVR and IMR 4895.
There wasn't any case set-back on any load, which was good news, to me, because that would mean that there will be minimal frame stretch.
The clearance between the back of the case and the breech (head clearance?) is .006" on my Contender and some of the primers are blown back that far.
Something that I've been reading on the 30-30AI is that the straight wall clutches the chamber. So I'm seeing this is true.
Back thrust on the bolt or breech (depending on the type of gun) is nil.
I read also that there was a test performed using the 30-30 AI in which the bolt was removed ane the gun was fired electronically andthe cartridge stayed in place.
... Prolly read that already
On my first couple loads, I mistakenly had the re-sizing die set a bit low and ended up pushing the shoulder back a bit and on those loads, there was a crack in the case, just behind the shoulder... The case had actually stretched forward on those.
So I'm going to be sure to re-size the cases with the neck sizer stopping about .020" before it contacts the shoulder.
I have to get my scope zeroed in a bit better at 100 yd... I ran out of ammo just as I was getting it right.
I have some 125 gr flat base bullets and some 150 gr boat tail
I'll take my chrono out there next time and learn some more.
I'm not seeing load data for LVR powder using any bullets lighter than 150 gr
Has anyone successfully tried LVR with 125 gr bullets and found an accurate load?
Thanks
The range shut down for a few months over covid, just when I was about to fireform a bunch of 30-30 brass, and they've re-opened now.
So I'm on it.
This is a 14" Contender with a factory .30-30 barrel that was re-chambered
It has a pretty long throat so COAL is 2.92" with the bullet contacting the rifling, using Hornady 150 gr tipped bullets DON'T set very deep into the neck -maybe just 3/16"
I was reviewing old threads containing load data and this one came up and I made a point of it to check the primer protrusion after firing.
It ended that regardless of my powder selection, there was no case set-back.
I used what load data I could find and loaded some up with LVR and IMR 4895.
There wasn't any case set-back on any load, which was good news, to me, because that would mean that there will be minimal frame stretch.
The clearance between the back of the case and the breech (head clearance?) is .006" on my Contender and some of the primers are blown back that far.
Something that I've been reading on the 30-30AI is that the straight wall clutches the chamber. So I'm seeing this is true.
Back thrust on the bolt or breech (depending on the type of gun) is nil.
I read also that there was a test performed using the 30-30 AI in which the bolt was removed ane the gun was fired electronically andthe cartridge stayed in place.
... Prolly read that already
On my first couple loads, I mistakenly had the re-sizing die set a bit low and ended up pushing the shoulder back a bit and on those loads, there was a crack in the case, just behind the shoulder... The case had actually stretched forward on those.
So I'm going to be sure to re-size the cases with the neck sizer stopping about .020" before it contacts the shoulder.
I have to get my scope zeroed in a bit better at 100 yd... I ran out of ammo just as I was getting it right.
I have some 125 gr flat base bullets and some 150 gr boat tail
I'll take my chrono out there next time and learn some more.
I'm not seeing load data for LVR powder using any bullets lighter than 150 gr
Has anyone successfully tried LVR with 125 gr bullets and found an accurate load?
Thanks
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BeeKay said:The clearance between the back of the case and the breech (head clearance?) is .006" on my Contender and some of the primers are blown back that far.
That's a low-pressure sign. Normally the head would back up and reseat the primer. If the case is stuck to the chamber walls by pressure, you also have enough pressure to start stretching the brass to get the head back against the breech face. If neither is happening, the pressure is pretty low.
BeeKay said:Something that I've been reading on the 30-30AI is that the straight wall clutches the chamber. So I'm seeing this is true. Back-thrust on the bolt or breech (depending on the type of gun) is nil.
For that to happen, the brass has to be strong enough to contain the pressure without the help of the breech face, but it's only strong enough to resist up to about four or five thousand psi. Above that pressure, either the case backs up and applies the force to the breech face or the case gets stuck and the force exceeds the yield of the brass in the head and stretches it out starting where the brass wall starts to thicken.
BeeKay said:I read also that there was a test performed using the 30-30 AI in which the bolt was removed ane the gun was fired electronically andthe cartridge stayed in place.
... Prolly read that already
These things get distorted on the Internet. I read a description of the experiment by one of the participants some years ago (it may have been P. O. Ackley himself, as I have a book he wrote on loading). I don't recall which AI cartridge it was; only that it was one of them, so the shallow taper was there. IIRC, the bolt was in the gun (it has the firing pin, after all) but the locking lugs were removed so the bolt was free to back up and out of the receiver. In that instance, the bolt's inertia was able to keep the cartridge intact, but that doesn't mean there was zero thrust.
Unclenick - I'm still trying to figure it out...
The test you mentioned at the end of your post was P.O.Ackley, testing the .30/30 Improved in a rifle with the lugs removed from the bolt.
I'm just saying that the results I got firing my .30/30 AI supports what the Original Poster says about how the case was not backing out.
I was using loads that were about 1 gr below max. And I had some max loads made up which I didn't use because it was doing unexpected things.
I think that someone could make the claim that whatever things typically go on with rifle cartridges when they're fired, the .30/30 AI yields unexpected results, as a straight walled case.
There is no roughness in the walls of the chamber - I had the chamber reamed by a gunsmith that has a lot of experience. The walls of the chamber are smoother than most factory chambers.
It's just one of the .30/30 AIs carachteristics, by design.
He designed it to be a cartridge for lever guns that would take thrust load off the bolt, because the bolts of lever guns aren't as strong as bolt action.
So anyhow I'm still looking to compare notes on loads using 125 gr bullets that are seated to a length of 2.92, using LeveRevolution powder, in a Contender. I might have to pioneer that.
I bought 8 lb of LVR powder a short while ago because it's all they had left.
The test you mentioned at the end of your post was P.O.Ackley, testing the .30/30 Improved in a rifle with the lugs removed from the bolt.
I'm just saying that the results I got firing my .30/30 AI supports what the Original Poster says about how the case was not backing out.
I was using loads that were about 1 gr below max. And I had some max loads made up which I didn't use because it was doing unexpected things.
I think that someone could make the claim that whatever things typically go on with rifle cartridges when they're fired, the .30/30 AI yields unexpected results, as a straight walled case.
There is no roughness in the walls of the chamber - I had the chamber reamed by a gunsmith that has a lot of experience. The walls of the chamber are smoother than most factory chambers.
It's just one of the .30/30 AIs carachteristics, by design.
He designed it to be a cartridge for lever guns that would take thrust load off the bolt, because the bolts of lever guns aren't as strong as bolt action.
So anyhow I'm still looking to compare notes on loads using 125 gr bullets that are seated to a length of 2.92, using LeveRevolution powder, in a Contender. I might have to pioneer that.
I bought 8 lb of LVR powder a short while ago because it's all they had left.
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Yep lugs removed from the bolt. What I was responding to was in post #33 you said the bolt was removed, not that it was in place with just the lugs removed, and I'd seen that said elsewhere, so I just assumed you were echoing that Internet myth, but I guess it was just a typo.
You might take an interest in Varmint Al's work on bolt thrust verses chamber finish. The animated FEA output images are fascinating.
You might take an interest in Varmint Al's work on bolt thrust verses chamber finish. The animated FEA output images are fascinating.
I remembered reading the PO Ackley article several years ago and the details were fuzzy in my mind.
I had to commit some time to re-searching that to refresh my memory.
But I found it and reread it.
My thoughts are that the design features that make the .30/30 AI a good cartridge for lever rifles because of reduced thrust against the bolt face, probably also makes it good for the Contender for the same reason.
I'm thinking I'll shim the breech to tighten up the clearance between it and the case head.
Maybe to .002"
... For anyone following who's not familiar with Contenders, there are headspace adjustment shims available for that purpose.
Without closing up that clearance a bit, I'd expect case stretching at the web.
There are a lot of variables to deal with before I'll find what's best because the chamber was reamed with a long throat for Barnes projectiles.
I had to commit some time to re-searching that to refresh my memory.
But I found it and reread it.
My thoughts are that the design features that make the .30/30 AI a good cartridge for lever rifles because of reduced thrust against the bolt face, probably also makes it good for the Contender for the same reason.
I'm thinking I'll shim the breech to tighten up the clearance between it and the case head.
Maybe to .002"
... For anyone following who's not familiar with Contenders, there are headspace adjustment shims available for that purpose.
Without closing up that clearance a bit, I'd expect case stretching at the web.
There are a lot of variables to deal with before I'll find what's best because the chamber was reamed with a long throat for Barnes projectiles.
BeeKay,
The bolt thrust comes from stretching the brass, so unless Ackley could make that brass thicker, I think the main difference in an Improved design would just be the precise pressure threshold at which the case sticks to the chamber wall.
This excerpt from a book about Ackley describes replicating some of Ackley's work using more modern measuring methods. It surprised me by showing 30-30 brass is too thick to stretch at factory (SAAMI max) pressures. So where I mentioned your protruding primer is a low-pressure sign, these fellows prove that is not so in the 30-30 (or the 30-30 AI) operating at SAAMI 30-30 pressures. But it also shows some of Ackley's conclusions, reached without modern instrumentation, were not justified. It looks like an interesting read, and I have now ordered a copy of the book, here.
The good news from that report is that in your Contender, the 30-30 at SAAMI operating pressures and if you have at least a little head clearance, won't produce any breech face thrust at all beyond what the primer does (1,455 pounds-force by static analysis at 42,000 psi, though, be cautioned that this may vary with the brand of brass you choose and is probably a little lower in dynamic analysis). It looks like, at those pressures, the cartridge head itself acts as the gun's breech and the brass doesn't back up to push on the steel at all.
The bolt thrust comes from stretching the brass, so unless Ackley could make that brass thicker, I think the main difference in an Improved design would just be the precise pressure threshold at which the case sticks to the chamber wall.
This excerpt from a book about Ackley describes replicating some of Ackley's work using more modern measuring methods. It surprised me by showing 30-30 brass is too thick to stretch at factory (SAAMI max) pressures. So where I mentioned your protruding primer is a low-pressure sign, these fellows prove that is not so in the 30-30 (or the 30-30 AI) operating at SAAMI 30-30 pressures. But it also shows some of Ackley's conclusions, reached without modern instrumentation, were not justified. It looks like an interesting read, and I have now ordered a copy of the book, here.
The good news from that report is that in your Contender, the 30-30 at SAAMI operating pressures and if you have at least a little head clearance, won't produce any breech face thrust at all beyond what the primer does (1,455 pounds-force by static analysis at 42,000 psi, though, be cautioned that this may vary with the brand of brass you choose and is probably a little lower in dynamic analysis). It looks like, at those pressures, the cartridge head itself acts as the gun's breech and the brass doesn't back up to push on the steel at all.
Unclenick - That's all interesting stuff and good to know.
I've has a Contender for a while but am just now finding out about frame stretch.
I missed out on the IHMSA craze of the 80s so I haven't had the opportunity to compare notes with other Contender guys - Other than on the internet.
Yeah - With high enough pressures, even if the .30/30 AI cases clung to the chamber walls, the weak point would be the web.
If Ackley pursued destructive testing and continued firing the gun with tthe lug free bolt til it reached the breaking point, the case head would separate, eventually.
Don't cha think?
So I'll be looking for case stretch
My mission is to come up with an accurate / reliable deer load using lead free projectiles for hunting in Calif. (Mandatory lead free here)
This isn't the first thread I've read where someone mentioned having used 41 gr of LVR in the .30-30 AI with 150 gr bullets.
I stopped at 38.5 gr
I've has a Contender for a while but am just now finding out about frame stretch.
I missed out on the IHMSA craze of the 80s so I haven't had the opportunity to compare notes with other Contender guys - Other than on the internet.
Yeah - With high enough pressures, even if the .30/30 AI cases clung to the chamber walls, the weak point would be the web.
If Ackley pursued destructive testing and continued firing the gun with tthe lug free bolt til it reached the breaking point, the case head would separate, eventually.
Don't cha think?
So I'll be looking for case stretch
My mission is to come up with an accurate / reliable deer load using lead free projectiles for hunting in Calif. (Mandatory lead free here)
This isn't the first thread I've read where someone mentioned having used 41 gr of LVR in the .30-30 AI with 150 gr bullets.
I stopped at 38.5 gr
Tried it over the chrono
Today I made it to the range with some bullets of varied weights loaded over LVR.
I tried starting with 39 gr of LVR under a 150 gr bullet, working up to 41 gr of LVR/150 bullet, and the best velocity I got was 2380.
With 125 gr bullets I maxed out at 44.5 gr LVR powder under a 125 gr bullet and I got about 2550.
The first loads I fired were back about the last time I posted here, whenever that was and I realized that I needed to tighten up my clearance between the breech and the back of the case. At first it was .006 but I closed it to .002, after seeing case stretch at the web.
My primers are still protruding after firing, which has me puzzled.
I'll measure for stretch after I clean and re-size the cases.
My ultimate goal is to develop some loads using copper projectiles for hunting in CA.
So when I had the chamber reamed, I had the throat extended, because the copper bullets require extra distance to jump before engaging into the rifling.
So when I seated today's bullets (jacketed lead hunting bullets) in this test I seated them further out that the .30-30 AI data indicates, for a longer COL.
If anyone is interested in pursuing this old thread, I'll give more specific detail.
Today I made it to the range with some bullets of varied weights loaded over LVR.
I tried starting with 39 gr of LVR under a 150 gr bullet, working up to 41 gr of LVR/150 bullet, and the best velocity I got was 2380.
With 125 gr bullets I maxed out at 44.5 gr LVR powder under a 125 gr bullet and I got about 2550.
The first loads I fired were back about the last time I posted here, whenever that was and I realized that I needed to tighten up my clearance between the breech and the back of the case. At first it was .006 but I closed it to .002, after seeing case stretch at the web.
My primers are still protruding after firing, which has me puzzled.
I'll measure for stretch after I clean and re-size the cases.
My ultimate goal is to develop some loads using copper projectiles for hunting in CA.
So when I had the chamber reamed, I had the throat extended, because the copper bullets require extra distance to jump before engaging into the rifling.
So when I seated today's bullets (jacketed lead hunting bullets) in this test I seated them further out that the .30-30 AI data indicates, for a longer COL.
If anyone is interested in pursuing this old thread, I'll give more specific detail.