30-30 WCF shoulder bump

A

akinswi

New member
Im trying to bump the shoulder on my 30-30 cases by 4 thousandths, the issue is I have no more die turn on my Forster Coax press.

The die is screwed down as far as I can go before it starts hitting the the jaws on the coax . It hasnt bumped the shoulder any.

Im using a RCBS Full length Resizing Die. Iam using a forster lock ring.

Suggestions
 
Bump This

You mean you are trying to adjust your sizing dies. Try a different press. I find my Lee Hand Pesses to be extremely useful. I also have a Redding Single Stage bolted to a tree trunk section in my garage.
 
Marco Califo said:
You mean you are trying to adjust your sizing dies. Try a different press. I find my Lee Hand Pesses to be extremely useful. I also have a Redding Single Stage bolted to a tree trunk section in my garage.
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Surely there is a way and not have to use a completely different press.
 
Is the die being pushed off the case holder or does it contact?

If it pushes off, you can just adjust it more.

If it touches, all you can do is machine the die. I wonder if RCBS would take 0.01-0.015 off it as a service…
 
I even tried the smaller RCBS lock ring, didnt work either.

Right now I dont have enough room to mount my older lee challenger press.

30-30 was one of the first rifle cartridges I reloaded for so I know that press will work.

This project will just half to wait
 
This is where a Lee Hand Press shines. No set-up. Just find it and screw in your die, and fiddle about.. $47.50 @ MidwayUSA.
 
Im trying to bump the shoulder on my 30-30 cases by 4 thousandths,...
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Why??

and, four thousandths from where??? From where the shoulder is on the fired case? From where your FL die sets it?? somewhere else???

The .30-30 headspaces on the rim. IF the sized case shoulder is adequate to allow normal chambering, what are you seeking to gain by a specific amount, and why 0.004"???

The die is screwed down as far as I can go before it starts hitting the the jaws on the coax . It hasnt bumped the shoulder any.

Im using a RCBS Full length Resizing Die. Iam using a forster lock ring.
Click to expand...

This might be your problem. The standard RCBS FL die is made to work with the standard shellholder. You're not using the standard shellholder, are you?

I don't know, (since I have no way of measuring your equipment) but I suspect the height of your co-ax jaws are taller than the standard shellholder.

IF this is the case, then you physically cannot screw the FL die body "down" far enough to do its job as designed, because the die body contacts the top of the jaws (with less of the case inside the die) than it would using a standard RCBS shellholder.

I see that Forester sells an adaptor plate to allow the use of standard shellholders in their co-ax press. This, (and a standard shellholder) might solve you issue. I'd certainly try it before buying a different press.

Best practice is to use the shellholder from the same maker as your dies. Most of the time, other makers shell holders or shell plates will work adequately, but sometimes the stars line up to allow differences in "deck height" and top height of the shellholder to cause issues.

If you were loading a straight wall case, there would be no issue, but you're not. Based on what you have said, my guess is that even with the die in contact with the shellholder jaws, it is being held too far "up" for the die shoulder to push back the case shoulder.

There are ways around this, either by changing your system so that the die and the shellholder are a match (both RCBS, in this case) or trying a different die, or even by having metal removed from the bottom of your FL die body, so it can be screwed "down" more.

Good luck, which ever way you decide to go...
 
44 amp,

If it headspaces on the rim then whats the point in resizing the case in the first place?

Or is there no point in full length resizing for 30-30 WCF for a lever action rifle , which every reloading manual advises you do so.

I was under the impression that full length resizing not only resizes the body of the case but the shoulder aswell.

I was also under under in the impression that it is recommended to bump the shoulder 3 to 5 thousandths for either a lever action rifle or a semiautomatic rifle


I will try the adapter plate
 
Running out of sizing die happens. Get some 0.004" shim washers with a hole big enough for the decapping pin, or remove your decapping pin and just cut out some 0.004" shim stock to a head-size disc and put it on the press under every case before resizing. I note that 0.004" is just a fraction over the thickness of 20 lb typing paper, so you could even try a disc of that first, maybe wetting it with oil to stick the discs to your case heads. Maybe, spread over the whole head, it will withstand enough pressure to work. You'll have to try it. But steel or brass shim stock is sure to work. It just won't be easily pierced by the decapping pin the way the paper will.

You can also try just running the case back up into the sizing die as it is, holding it there for a count of two to five (try both; it depends on how hard your brass is), lowering it, and rotating it a third of a turn and repeating twice more. This can often shave that much extra head-to-shoulder-length down.
 
If it headspaces on the rim then whats the point in resizing the case in the first place?
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You resize to return the case body, shoulder and neck to specs.
four thousandths from where??? From where the shoulder is on the fired case? From where your FL die sets it?? somewhere else???
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44AMP has a point there. That is why I strongly dislike the term "bump"; what does it mean? Close to NIL. Set up your sizing die per manufacture's recommedations/instructions. If the brass goes into a case gage AND will chamber in your rifle, why do anything different?
 
Marco Califo said:
You resize to return the case body, shoulder and neck to specs.

44AMP has a point there. That is why I strongly dislike the term "bump"; what does it mean? Close to NIL. Set up your sizing die per manufacture's recommedations/instructions. If the brass goes into a case gage AND will chamber in your rifle, why do anything different?
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The bumping is from where the shoulder is after being fired in my Winchester 94. I wanted to bump it back that much.

My apologies for not clarifying that bump in my case is from a fired case
 
Unclenick said:
Running out of sizing die happens. Get some 0.004" shim washers with a hole big enough for the decapping pin, or remove your decapping pin and just cut out some 0.004" shim stock to a head-size disc and put it on the press under every case before resizing. I note that 0.004" is just a fraction over the thickness of 20 lb typing paper, so you could even try a disc of that first, maybe wetting it with oil to stick the discs to your case heads. Maybe, spread over the whole head, it will withstand enough pressure to work. You'll have to try it. But steel or brass shim stock is sure to work. It just won't be easily pierced by the decapping pin the way the paper will.

You can also try just running the case back up into the sizing die as it is, holding it there for a count of two to five (try both; it depends on how hard your brass is), lowering it, and rotating it a third of a turn and repeating twice more. This can often shave that much extra head-to-shoulder-length down.
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Nick,

What about the adapter that 44amp mentioned? its only 34.00 seems very useful.
 
I keep a few pieces of shim stock around my Coax press of different thickness, they are notched on one end to go around the alignment pin behind the hole to the press. My decapping/inside sizing stem has been removed from all my dies. When I have a piece of brass resisting to go that extra little bit I simple place the shim under the jaws of the press and try again. I measure every piece of brass before and after sizing to see what my die is doing.
 
If it headspaces on the rim then whats the point in resizing the case in the first place?
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So the case fits back into the chamber, or so it will chamber in a different firearm. Chambers have tolerances, min/max, and a sizing die is made so it will resize the case body to fit a min spec chamber. Brass fired in a "large" chamber may not fit into a min spec one without being FL resized.

Or is there no point in full length resizing for 30-30 WCF for a lever action rifle , which every reloading manual advises you do so.
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There certainly is a point, its so your ammo will chamber smoothly and properly. It is recommended for lever guns, for just that reason. Generally speaking, lever actions lack the powerful camming action of a turn bolt action, With a bolt action, a slightly oversize case can be chambered and the bolt handle forced down, so the camming action locking the bolt shut forces the case all the way in. This is not possible with most lever actions, they just aren't built to allow that.


I was under the impression that full length resizing not only resizes the body of the case but the shoulder aswell.
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It does. Resizing dies are made to return the entire case to min spec dimensions, (or even slightly less).

Setting the shoulder back is part of that process. However, to do this, the die body needs to be properly adjusted (per the makers instructions). Generally speaking this is with the bottom of the die body in contact with the top of the shell holder (the one it was made to use) with the press ram at full extension and all play out of the system. Not setting it up this way results in partial sizing, which MAY or may not be good enough for use in your gun(s).

You can adjust the die so its not all the way down in firm contact with the shell holder. It can be adjusted so only the neck of the case gets sized and the shoulder does not. This is called neck sizing, and some people swear by it, and others swear at it. ;)

The common reason people do this is when they have a chamber where the shoulder is at max or even beyond, and setting the shoulder back to min spec dimensions by full length resizing results in the shoulder being worked excessively back and forth which usually results in very short case life.

The .303 British and SMLE rifles are famous for this. Again its a rimmed case, so headspace is constant and easy to maintain. However, SMLE rifle chambers are widely referred to as "generous", (to allow for function with dirty ammo & debris in combat conditions) which in effect means that the chamber shoulder is somewhere out there, far enough ahead of the spec for the case that the case will chamber easily, headspacing on the rim, but keeping the chamber shoulder cut to precise specs was not a major consideration. Remember, for military use, the case only has to go into the chamber, fire, and come out, ONCE.

Commercial rifles firing rimmed bottlenecked cases can also have this happen. Generally not to the degree of the SMLE rifles, but its always a possibility that the shoulder in your rifle's chamber could be a little "off". This has NO effect on firing new ammunition but can have an effect on reloaded cases.
 
I grind die body shorter quite often. A belt sander will do it with no fuss.

Why trying to headspace a rimmed cartridge on shoulder, instead of rim? It is a way to avoid excessive head clearance in guns with excessive headspace. Why not if my load is only for this particular rifle?

Shimming will work to a point, say till it hits the limit of the shell holder. Cutting die body short goes way farther. There is a radius machined around the mouth of the die. You want to keep that though.

I dislike shimming with feeler gauges. It is abusing a measurement instrument, similar to prying something loose with ruler.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
 
One thing to consider is most dies will shorten cases far enough for even a tight chamber, but often minimal chambers and trying to get 0.003” bump from fired is nearly impossible.

An additional factor is with your case headspacing on rim, …I’m not sure how this affects things, but the case is not held forward when it expands. It is held back depending on how tight the headspace is at the rim. I wonder if it needs bumped at all?? My 30 Herrett has a similar issue, I believe, but I have not fired enough brass to really put numbers to it.

Where as a 308 expands with shoulder pushed forward. It expands out and thrusts the head to the rear. After the first 1-3 firings, bumping 0-0.001” is fine, then you need to usually bump 0.002-0.005” depending on action flex, springback, pressure of load, etc.
 
When I was shooting a .30-30 Contender at IHMSA, I treated the brass like rimless and sized it just enough to chamber freely. The rim was for positive extraction. We were not into thousandths of bump back then, just the feel of closing the action.
 
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