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30-06 Cartridge Gauge
- Thread starter ninosdemente
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For me, the utility of the rifle case gages (I tend to use Dillon brand as they are SS) is to check the proper setting of the FL sizing die in the press. The gage indicates to me if the sizing die is properly adjusted or needs further adjustment.
Of course, by this reasoning, once the sizing die is properly adjusted and checked using the case gage, the lock ring gets tightened on the sizing die and the setting should stay in place thereafter. But, I tend to check the sizing die using the case gage from time to time to assure the sizing die setting hasn't changed.
That's the value of the case gages in my handloading practice. I tend to use the calipers to check case length rather than the gages, however.
Bayou
Of course, by this reasoning, once the sizing die is properly adjusted and checked using the case gage, the lock ring gets tightened on the sizing die and the setting should stay in place thereafter. But, I tend to check the sizing die using the case gage from time to time to assure the sizing die setting hasn't changed.
That's the value of the case gages in my handloading practice. I tend to use the calipers to check case length rather than the gages, however.
Bayou
condor bravo
New member
Don:
Most of us manage to get by just fine without any knowledge of, or paying any attention to, the datum line. Mr. Guffey probably just confuses things with his constant reference to it. But whatever the case gauge can do, the calipers are more versatile and can do it better by providing measurement numbers.
After firing and before sizing, the gauge could indicate a long chamber if the case rim protrudes beneath the gauge (it should be flush). After sizing it can show if the case has stretched and in need of trimming. Less important perhaps, after firing if the case fit in the gauge is difficult due to girth expansion, perhaps an indication of chamber dimensions.
But all in all the gauge is not that useful if you have calipers.
Most of us manage to get by just fine without any knowledge of, or paying any attention to, the datum line. Mr. Guffey probably just confuses things with his constant reference to it. But whatever the case gauge can do, the calipers are more versatile and can do it better by providing measurement numbers.
After firing and before sizing, the gauge could indicate a long chamber if the case rim protrudes beneath the gauge (it should be flush). After sizing it can show if the case has stretched and in need of trimming. Less important perhaps, after firing if the case fit in the gauge is difficult due to girth expansion, perhaps an indication of chamber dimensions.
But all in all the gauge is not that useful if you have calipers.
603Country
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Some years back, I bought a 223, so I also bought a Wilson Case Gauge in 223. I'd use it to check resized cases. They all fit, so all was good. Fast forward to when I had the gun rebarreled. I bought some new Lapua brass, which naturally fit the case gauge, so I loaded them up and went to shoot. The rounds would not chamber. Dropped them into the case gauge and they fit just fine. Hmmmm. I went down the road a mile and borrowed a couple of factory 223 rounds. They chambered easily, and they fit into the case gauge easily. And as before, so did the Lapua reloads. Well, following my usual rule of "when all else fails, measure everything". So I did that, and the reloads that would not chamber and the factory ammo were all within spec. As it was finally determined, the Lapua cases had thick necks, and when loaded the necks were too thick for the chamber on the new barrel. I had not asked the gunsmith for a tight custom chamber, but that's what I got. I also got a 22 inch barrel when I had specified 20 inch, but that's another story.
I had the chamber neck opened up a bit, and all is Ok. The point is that the Wilson Case Gauge was of no help at all. Buy one if it makes you happy, or drive over here and I'll give you one. And I should have gone to a gunsmith that had done excellent work for me on previous jobs.
I had the chamber neck opened up a bit, and all is Ok. The point is that the Wilson Case Gauge was of no help at all. Buy one if it makes you happy, or drive over here and I'll give you one. And I should have gone to a gunsmith that had done excellent work for me on previous jobs.
finally determined, the Lapua cases had thick necks,
Unbelievable. The case gage is not a chamber gage and when compared to a chamber gage noting has more clearance than a case gage. Meaning a friend built bench rest rifles, one of his customers must have been an Internet reloader because he was hollering about a chamber with a loose neck. I had to ask my friend about accuracy, he said accuracy can not be improved upon so I had to figure a way to tighten the neck in the chamber with a case. The only case with a thicker neck for the 308 W comes from cases formed from 30/06 to 308 W. Cases were not a problem, he has 12,000+ 30/06 cases. I decided on LC MATCH with matching dates. I managed to tighten the neck by.005", that gave him the .002" he insisted on having. It is tuff adding brass to the neck to make it thicker.
F. Guffey.
After firing and before sizing, the gauge could indicate a long chamber if the case rim protrudes beneath the gauge (it should be flush).
Condo Bravo, you just made that up? The case head should be flush with the top of the gage if the case is fired in an a go-gage length chamber. For the thirty-fifth time I have a rifle with a long chamber. The chamber in that one rifle is .002" longer than a field reject length chamber. That is .011" longer from the datum/shoulder to the bolt face than a go-gage length chamber.
Longer than: The chamber is .016" longer from the shoulder to the bolt face than a minimum length/full length sized case. When I size cases for that chamber I adjust the die off the shell holder .014" and then size 280 Remington cases to 30/06, with that adjustment I get the magic .002" clearance.
There is a most interesting story among old reloaders on how the rifle got the long chamber. There were a few old smith that got their noses out of joint and then got all snarky.
F. Guffey
And then there is above and below, I choose to call the case head that hangs out beyond the end of the gage 'case head protrusion' cases fired in my rifle with the long chamber have .011" case head protrusion. For those reloaders than can keep up they remember to add the case head protrusion to the length of the case when trimming.
Mr. Guffey probably just confuses things with his constant reference to it.
I do not make this stuff up, as I have said before this stuff does not drive me to the curb. 10+ years ago I said I make datums, I collect datums and on occasions I purchase datums. Reloaders thought the datum was a line. After they figured it out they made a fast trip to the hardware store to purchaZes spacers with holes in them and could not figure out why they could not XERO their dial calipers.
condor bravo
New member
Mr Guffey:
Isn't that what I said--that the case head should be flush but if it protrudes outside the gage, the indication could be a long chamber.
Today I had 24 Federal '06 cases fired in a Garand and I took the time to gage each case while sizing to see if it revealed anything practical.
Cases first checked in the gage before sizing--a few dropped in with no resistance and dropped right out again. Most required a slight shove into the gage as would be expected. Two or three had burrs around the rim that prevented easy entry but the burrs were filed off and entry was again easy.
After sizing all cases were again gage checked and all fell in and out again very easily as would be expected. All case lengths fell between the upper and lower steps at the neck, right around 2.484 case trim length and required no trimming. They had been trimmed once before.
So, was anything gained by doing that experiment? Not hardly. The case head burrs if left unattended would not have interfered with chambering due to additional chamber clearance.
But I have had other fired cases that were difficult to insert in the gage due to increased circumference and that could indicate excessive chamber expansion.
Isn't that what I said--that the case head should be flush but if it protrudes outside the gage, the indication could be a long chamber.
Today I had 24 Federal '06 cases fired in a Garand and I took the time to gage each case while sizing to see if it revealed anything practical.
Cases first checked in the gage before sizing--a few dropped in with no resistance and dropped right out again. Most required a slight shove into the gage as would be expected. Two or three had burrs around the rim that prevented easy entry but the burrs were filed off and entry was again easy.
After sizing all cases were again gage checked and all fell in and out again very easily as would be expected. All case lengths fell between the upper and lower steps at the neck, right around 2.484 case trim length and required no trimming. They had been trimmed once before.
So, was anything gained by doing that experiment? Not hardly. The case head burrs if left unattended would not have interfered with chambering due to additional chamber clearance.
But I have had other fired cases that were difficult to insert in the gage due to increased circumference and that could indicate excessive chamber expansion.
Anybody with an internet connection can put out incorrect and confusing information.
In the context of the Geometric Dimensions and Tolerances on Engineering Drawings
A DATUM is a THEORETICAL plane,line,point,circle,etc. It is the starting or anchor assumption for the dimensioning scheme.
Remember,THEORETICAL. You may buy drawings or make sketches...but a datum is not a thing.
Now,the flat bottom surface of a part may be designated as a DATUM on the drawing. No problem. We may use a very flat granite surface to SIMULATE the DATUM. We can rest our part on the granite and measure from the granite surface. That is how it is done,but by definition,the granite surface plate is NOT the datum. It simulates the datum.
Your case gauge is not a DATUM. It has a hole tha more or less SIMULATES the round circle of the SAAMI diameter that defines the theoretical DATUM circle. The gauge is not the DATUM.
On the part being measured,there is a DATUM FEATURE. It may be the flat bottom of a part. It may be the shoulder of a cartridge case. It's real form will be imperfect. The flat bottom is not perfectly flat. The brass shoulder is not perfect.
What we measure from is how the Datum feature contacts the simulated Datum ,be it a surface plate or your case guage.
Feel free to research and verify what I just told you. Search "Engineering Drawing Datum" or GD+T DATUM.
I would copy and paste but that copyright thing...
Nothing personal,Mr Guffy,but ego does not justify confusing folks who are trying to learn something serious.
Condor Bravo,you are doing well.Be aware Garand and other semi auto brass may well get some stretch after unlock. Case length and chamber length may become disconnected.
You are correct about diameters on a typical bushing gauge designed to check length.You cannot gauge length and diameter at the same time with a bushing gauge.You must have diametral clearance for the gauge to measure length.
A "plunk"gauge is a different tool with a different purpose.
Mr Guffy,I must confess,your post #6 is good.
In 9mm,all it will tell you is whether your case length is to spec.Nothing else.It IS NOT A PLUNK GUAGE. It was never intended to be. The diameters are larger than a chamber.
Your bushing case gauge will tell you if your shoulder bump back puts the case to SAAMI length.Between the steps. Its great for that! Check!
With the gauge and case head on a flat surface,if the neck protrudes,its time to trim. Check!
NOW,we get fancy !! Once you,by whatever means,establish THE perfect head to shoulder length for YOUR rifle.....like .002 for a bolt gun,and .004 or .006 or whatever for a semi auto...Are you ready? Drop it in your gauge and measure over the gauge and your case head with your calipers, with your calipers over the ground in step. Write that number down.
A year later,you can set your sizing die to give you that measurement over the case in the bushing and BINGO! Same head clearance.Just be aware if your case neck protrudes this won't work.Trim it to sub flush.
Me,I absolutely do NOT think they are useless. I think a lot of folks do not know what they have or how to use it.
And some bellow "Unnecessary! Waste of money" rather than I'm a newbie,how do I use this?"
Guess who quit learning long ago? Guess who learns something new every day?. And who do you want to listen to?
In the context of the Geometric Dimensions and Tolerances on Engineering Drawings
A DATUM is a THEORETICAL plane,line,point,circle,etc. It is the starting or anchor assumption for the dimensioning scheme.
Remember,THEORETICAL. You may buy drawings or make sketches...but a datum is not a thing.
Now,the flat bottom surface of a part may be designated as a DATUM on the drawing. No problem. We may use a very flat granite surface to SIMULATE the DATUM. We can rest our part on the granite and measure from the granite surface. That is how it is done,but by definition,the granite surface plate is NOT the datum. It simulates the datum.
Your case gauge is not a DATUM. It has a hole tha more or less SIMULATES the round circle of the SAAMI diameter that defines the theoretical DATUM circle. The gauge is not the DATUM.
On the part being measured,there is a DATUM FEATURE. It may be the flat bottom of a part. It may be the shoulder of a cartridge case. It's real form will be imperfect. The flat bottom is not perfectly flat. The brass shoulder is not perfect.
What we measure from is how the Datum feature contacts the simulated Datum ,be it a surface plate or your case guage.
Feel free to research and verify what I just told you. Search "Engineering Drawing Datum" or GD+T DATUM.
I would copy and paste but that copyright thing...
Nothing personal,Mr Guffy,but ego does not justify confusing folks who are trying to learn something serious.
Condor Bravo,you are doing well.Be aware Garand and other semi auto brass may well get some stretch after unlock. Case length and chamber length may become disconnected.
You are correct about diameters on a typical bushing gauge designed to check length.You cannot gauge length and diameter at the same time with a bushing gauge.You must have diametral clearance for the gauge to measure length.
A "plunk"gauge is a different tool with a different purpose.
Mr Guffy,I must confess,your post #6 is good.
In 9mm,all it will tell you is whether your case length is to spec.Nothing else.It IS NOT A PLUNK GUAGE. It was never intended to be. The diameters are larger than a chamber.
Your bushing case gauge will tell you if your shoulder bump back puts the case to SAAMI length.Between the steps. Its great for that! Check!
With the gauge and case head on a flat surface,if the neck protrudes,its time to trim. Check!
NOW,we get fancy !! Once you,by whatever means,establish THE perfect head to shoulder length for YOUR rifle.....like .002 for a bolt gun,and .004 or .006 or whatever for a semi auto...Are you ready? Drop it in your gauge and measure over the gauge and your case head with your calipers, with your calipers over the ground in step. Write that number down.
A year later,you can set your sizing die to give you that measurement over the case in the bushing and BINGO! Same head clearance.Just be aware if your case neck protrudes this won't work.Trim it to sub flush.
Me,I absolutely do NOT think they are useless. I think a lot of folks do not know what they have or how to use it.
And some bellow "Unnecessary! Waste of money" rather than I'm a newbie,how do I use this?"
Guess who quit learning long ago? Guess who learns something new every day?. And who do you want to listen to?
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condor bravo
New member
HiBC
Good point, semi-auto case elongation not necessarily related to chamber length. Thanks for that update.
Good point, semi-auto case elongation not necessarily related to chamber length. Thanks for that update.
When I got into reloading you used your rifles chamber as your gauge. The truth is , a round may easily fit the "case gauge" but not chamber in your rifle. I just use the rifle to make sure they chamber. But that's just me.
GW,you are not wrong. Have you ever had "stretch rings" in your brass? Case stretch really shortens brass life.
One thing that helps is to control how much "head clearance" you get when you set the shoulder back. In a bolt gun,.002 is regarded as ideal.In a semi,more is required for reliable full lockup.
Most of this is about measuring for this fine tuning.
Yes,you can make ammo without.
Clearly,the gage was never meant to represent a chamber.It does not. It measures where the shoulder is...in loose terms,for "headspace" purposes.(wrong use of the word "headspace)
When I got into reloading you used your rifles chamber as your gauge. The truth is , a round may easily fit the "case gauge" but not chamber in your rifle. I just use the rifle to make sure they chamber. But that's just me.
Fit the case gage? As I have said before, life is not fair. There is absolutely no way the case can fit the case gage because the gage is open on one end. For years I have made tools for measuring case head protrusion by adapting a dial indicator. I do not believe I will live long enough to convince anyone here that it is possible.
And now Wilson is making a gage that fits the bottom of the case gage, one more time; I have always used a straight edge with a feeler gage and or a flat surface.
F. Guffey
I have a flat black granite block with a vertical post. Commonly called a compatator stand ,on my reloading bench .It has a dial indicator attached.
I can put a bushing case gauge on the plate,and zero the indicator to either the high or low gauge limit,as I choose.
So long as the cases do not need a trim,I can easily get an accurate read of the case head relationship to the gauge.
You can do pretty much the same measurement with calipers. The comparator stand is more efficient for qty. You can also log a die setting as "Low limit plus
0.003 gives .002 head clearance in Win M-70 .308,Low limit plus .005 gives 0.004 head clearance in the AR-10"
If I want to get fancy,I can even set the little tolerance pointers on the indicator face.
I can check a lot of cases fast.
I have this stuff due to my trade. I have set up for so many inspections this stuff is second nature. Not every Handloader needs the setup. But if you find the idea interesting,check e-bay for "comparator stand"
I can put a bushing case gauge on the plate,and zero the indicator to either the high or low gauge limit,as I choose.
So long as the cases do not need a trim,I can easily get an accurate read of the case head relationship to the gauge.
You can do pretty much the same measurement with calipers. The comparator stand is more efficient for qty. You can also log a die setting as "Low limit plus
0.003 gives .002 head clearance in Win M-70 .308,Low limit plus .005 gives 0.004 head clearance in the AR-10"
If I want to get fancy,I can even set the little tolerance pointers on the indicator face.
I can check a lot of cases fast.
I have this stuff due to my trade. I have set up for so many inspections this stuff is second nature. Not every Handloader needs the setup. But if you find the idea interesting,check e-bay for "comparator stand"
Yep, again a simple question gets answers steeped in advanced reloading theory and unnecessary "facts". Then the thread becomes a pi$$ing match between "expert" reloaders on who knows more than the other (one old timer is really bad at this, explaining, ad nauseum, the finer points of cartridge and chamber design).
For the OP; K.I.S.S.!!! No you don't need a gauge to see if your ammo will chamber, your barrel is good for that. If there is a chambering problem, then find a tool for troubleshooting and correcting the condition, no need to load yourself down with more tools than necessary. I reloaded several years just F/L sizing my brass and never had a chambering problem. After you get a good foundation on reloading and want to "improve" your reloads, then get any tool, gauge or book you want, but for now until you get a good handle on reloading, stick with the basics and K.I.S.S. ...
For the OP; K.I.S.S.!!! No you don't need a gauge to see if your ammo will chamber, your barrel is good for that. If there is a chambering problem, then find a tool for troubleshooting and correcting the condition, no need to load yourself down with more tools than necessary. I reloaded several years just F/L sizing my brass and never had a chambering problem. After you get a good foundation on reloading and want to "improve" your reloads, then get any tool, gauge or book you want, but for now until you get a good handle on reloading, stick with the basics and K.I.S.S. ...
ninosdemente
New member
Thank you all for the replies. Very helpful information.
Yep, again a simple question gets answers steeped in advanced reloading theory and unnecessary "facts". Then the thread becomes a pi$$ing match between "expert" reloaders on who knows more than the other (one old timer is really bad at this, explaining, ad nauseum, the finer points of cartridge and chamber design).
For the OP; K.I.S.S.!!! No you don't need a gauge to see if your ammo will chamber, your barrel is good for that. If there is a chambering problem, then find a tool for troubleshooting and correcting the condition, no need to load yourself down with more tools than necessary. I reloaded several years just F/L sizing my brass and never had a chambering problem. After you get a good foundation on reloading and want to "improve" your reloads, then get any tool, gauge or book you want, but for now until you get a good handle on reloading, stick with the basics and K.I.S.S. ...
Near 50 years ago,I would punch flash holes through Berdan primed 30 carbine brass with my decapping pin,crush primers into the crimped pockets,and dipper-dump 2400 or whatever reasonably appropriate available powder into the case. My goal was a "bang" that did not wreck my $ 65 gun,but would cycle the next round. I did not need accuracy because I seldom used sights on fleeing jackrabbits. I was 17 and having fun.
Brass life was not a consideration,
In its crudest form,that was reloading. It met my needs. For a few rounds of decent ammo,a Lee Classic set and a hammer will do.
I fully respect those who RELOAD to make recycled ammunition that is safe,accurate,and meets their needs. This can be done very well with minimal equiptment
I believe you are right,as far as that goes.
But there are also Handloaders. They are after something more than a good replacement for factory ammo.
No one has to go the extra,but the Handloader deserves respect,too.
There is nothing to be gained from criticizing someone who uses a bushing gauge to tailor head clearance.
Yes,the water does get muddied up .It is confusing and distracting. I also notice it seems like 95% of the posters have an emphatic opinion on case gauges,and about 20% of them know what the tool is designed to do or how to use it.
Example: The word Datum is thrown around as a term of mystery and confusion with NO supporting text. Its the property of the keeper of knowledge.
I had enough of the misuse of the word and the silly,confusing game.,and took the time to correct it.
You may scoff. Many know too much to learn.But I'll bet the OP,hungry for the answer,learned about his gauge and its uses.
I treated the OP and his question with respect.
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Example: The word Datum is thrown around as a term of mystery and confusion with NO supporting text. Its the property of the keeper of knowledge.
I had enough of the misuse of the word and the silly,confusing game.,and took the time to correct it.
I am afraid that nothing you do with change Guffey, his terminology, or arguments in any way. You are arguing with an attention seeking narcissist. He manipulates you in a discussion with him by which he becomes the center of attention, and is able to proclaim to the world, "how great I art!". He has done this before, and will do it again.
And hopefully, more people understand the bushing gauge.
The comparator stand is more efficient for qty
Where were you when Larry starting selling digital head space gages, again, the case does not have head space and Larry was not making head space gages, what it was-was a comparator/height gage. Had reloaders been able to distinguish the difference they could have purchases a height gage stand. In my opinion Larry knew about as much about the Wilson Case gage as members on this forum, one of the funniest things he claimed to have invented was the three point contact. And I said that problem was solved before the king shared part of his dukedom with an old wood carver. The 3 point contact was invented by the first person to milk a cow while setting on a 4 legged stool.
I made a one legged stool, the one legged stool saved a lot of lecture time. I never had to accuse someone of doing something and then waste time listening to them denying it, they would wake up and say "What happen?".
F. Guffey
I was at a gun show when I said to a dealer "DATUMS!", he claimed he did not have any datums, the shopper ahead of me ask "Where?", the shopper behind me ask "What does a datum look like?". I purchased a box of what looked like junk to most for $5.00. Basically I purchased a box of holes, the holes were in plates, bushings, case holders for tools no one had ever seen nor did they know what they fit, and a lot of it was home made.
F. Guffey
F. Guffey
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