2nd Amendment Regulation

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Tennessee Gentleman said:
I would argue that weapons in common use by civilians now are sufficient for these purposes of self-defense.
If that was the only purpose of the second amendment, then I would agree. Yet the history and the debates reveal that self defense was only a minor player in the right. The purpose of the preamble to the amendment was to remind us that the militia is the people, and they needed the self-same weaponry of the soldier (Tench Coxe) in order to defend the community against outside invasion, even to the point of defending the community against a government turned to tyranny.

One cannot avoid that meaning, simply by de-linking the preamble.
SAF said:
Even more important, a significant gap has developed between civilian and military small arms.
A gap that was perpetrated by the government itself by its enactment of the NFA (1934) and a bit later the FFA (1937) and finally cemented by the FOPA (1986). Before this, military hardware was rather common amongst certain segments of the population.

While I don't see the NFA going away, I do see the 922(o) exception being tossed and the registry reopened.
 
You're right, you really don't understand strict scrutiny.

Well, then please educate me. And while you're at it, please explain why the 1934 NFA and the 1986 FOPA are still the laws of the land. If it is so obvious that the 2A protects a citizen's right to own any and all weapons he may afford to buy why these laws haven't been overturned? Oh, and by the way, they will still be in place after Heller and I don't think you or I will live to see them overturned by the courts at least.

Just handed 'em out to every infantryman, did they? And nukes fill the role formerly occupied by the musket, do they? Learn something new on the Internet every day!

What does Infantry and muskets have to do with anything. 2A doesn't talk about that at all. What about cannon? Was that protected? Also, rudimentary mines were used as weapons then. Them too? Pistols were only issued to officers so does that exclude our having them as Dellinger argued?

The fact is there is no more militia in existence today and hasn't been in years. We have professional soldiers who fight for us and not militias. We live in a different world than 1790 and so the SCOTUS will interpret what the applicaility of the 2A is. You aren't going to get machine guns and other military weapons made available to civilians by the courts and probably not by any legislature. I think we can defend ourselves and maintain our rights with the weapons available to us now. This machine gun and grenade launcher talk makes us gun owners look like crazies and I will always speak against it. If you want those weapons join the military.
 
Originally posted by Antipas
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tennessee Gentleman
I would argue that weapons in common use by civilians now are sufficient for these purposes of self-defense.

If that was the only purpose of the second amendment, then I would agree. Yet the history and the debates reveal that self defense was only a minor player in the right. The purpose of the preamble to the amendment was to remind us that the militia is the people, and they needed the self-same weaponry of the soldier (Tench Coxe) in order to defend the community against outside invasion, even to the point of defending the community against a government turned to tyranny.

This can be looked at another way: Self-Defense is the sole purpose of the 2nd Amendment. Defense of oneself not only from common criminals, but also from foreign invaders and a tyrannical government. Also, defense of oneself is not limited only to one's life, defense of one's freedom can also be viewed as self-defense. The important thing here is that the necessity for the right to keep and bear arms (even military arms) is still the conclusion we come to whether looked at as Antipas did, or this way.

What does Infantry and muskets have to do with anything. 2A doesn't talk about that at all. What about cannon? Was that protected? Also, rudimentary mines were used as weapons then. Them too? Pistols were only issued to officers so does that exclude our having them as Dellinger argued?

Find me a federal law in existance before the NFA was passed that prohibited the posession of cannons, mines, or pistols. Certainly there were local ones, but a law must be challenged in court and then be appealed far enough to reach the SCOTUS in order to be declared unconstitutional, not an easy thing to do.

The fact is there is no more militia in existence today and hasn't been in years. We have professional soldiers who fight for us and not militias. We live in a different world than 1790 and so the SCOTUS will interpret what the applicaility of the 2A is. You aren't going to get machine guns and other military weapons made available to civilians by the courts and probably not by any legislature.

Yes, as a matter of fact there is a militia still in existance. Here are links to both of our state militias

http://www.indianamilitia.org/
http://www.constitution.org/mil/tn/mil_ustn.htm

While the SCOTUS decision may or may not make machineguns available to us, that doesn't necessarily mean that their decision is right nor coincides with what the Founding Father's intentions were. I have enumerated what I believe to be right and what I believe the founding fathers intentions were and the reasons for my opinions. Because the Justices of the Supreme Court are human, they too have differing opinions (even amongst themselves) and view which I may or may not agree with. I guess we'll just have to see, but regardless of their decision, others and myself have expressed how we think it should be.

I think we can defend ourselves and maintain our rights with the weapons available to us now.

While we may be able to defend ourselves with the weapons available to us now, whose to say if we'll be able to defend ourselves with those weapons tomorrow. The future is always uncertain. I doubt many people gave much thought to the NYC skyline on 9/10/2001, but things changed quite rapidly.

This machine gun and grenade launcher talk makes us gun owners look like crazies and I will always speak against it. If you want those weapons join the military.

How is it crazy to want the most effective means of self-defense and be able to exercise the rights enumerated (not given) by the Constitution? Why should I have to join the military in order to exercise my freedom?
 
A gap that was perpetrated by the government itself by its enactment of the NFA (1934) and a bit later the FFA (1937) and finally cemented by the FOPA (1986). Before this, military hardware was rather common amongst certain segments of the population.

I disagree with you that these weapons were common before the NFA. I don't believe they were because of their expense and lack of civilian practicality. You'd have to show me proof to the contrary The government controlled them because criminals used them and outgunned police. I don't think farmer Joe used a BAR to keep wolves away from the chicken coup. Waste of ammo.:)
 
This can be looked at another way: Self-Defense is the sole purpose of the 2nd Amendment. Defense of oneself not only from common criminals, but also from foreign invaders and a tyrannical government.

Agree somewhat with you except for the foreign invaders. We have professional military that does that for us today and they didn't really exist in 1790. Ain't nonbody gonna invade us with an armed force today, we have nukes. I really don't buy the tryrannical government thing as applying to military arms being necessary. The guns we have now available to us can take care of that issue.
 
If the Heller decision is positive in that it finds both an individual right and a fundamental right, we can expect to see a "strict scrutiny" applied to cases brought before the courts. (I'm always hopeful).

If that is the case, then we look at most of the other rights to see what kinds of restrictions or limitations are applied.

In General
Restrictions on rights - free speech, free press, religion, peaceable assembly, etc. are those that require an action or conduct that directly violates the rights of others.

Here we can use the well-worn "falsely shouting 'Fire!' in a crowded theatre" as an example. Your right to free speech is negated when it puts others into direct danger. Likewise the freedom of the press ends when you write libel or slanderous articles; incite others to riot or lynch a prisioner from authorities, etc.

Such restrictions put the public on notice of what kind of conduct is not protected (and likely unlawful).

Where gun-control laws run afoul of this general rule is that they are pre-emptive and/or criminalize normal conduct that is neither harmful nor otherwise illegal. They subject you to restrictions up front and in many cases criminalize, not a person's conduct, but the failure to have a document or to pay a fee before exercising the right.

Regulation that does not limit conduct with a firearm should not be able to pass a strict-scrutiny test.

Restrictions such as one-gun-a-month, waiting periods, FOID (ownership) documents, permits to buy, posess, transport or keep in a business do not seek to regulate only unlawful or harmful conduct.

The ACLU would collectively give birth to a set of purple dishes if you were required obtain a "permit" or pay some "fee" to get a lawyer in a criminal proceeding. Nor could you be limited to attending church services to once-a-month.

Imagine the uproar from civil libertarians if you were required to purchase and use locks for every door, cabinet or drawer to invoke your 4th amendment search & seizure rights.

Such restrictions are not permitted because they do not involve "conduct" that directly violates the rights of others.
 
Just my opinion, but not without basis, I believe

When it comes to those categories of prohibited persons, I believe that the govt should only prohibit those individuals that have been determined through due process to be unable to manage their own affairs. People adjudicated top be mentally incompetent (such as unable to understand basic right from wrong, for example). I don't care if you think you are the Queen of the May, you could own a gun, as the Queen of the May knows it is wrong to shoot people for fun or profit.

Abuse the right, and you get the same punishment as anyone else. Now if you are the kind of mental case that will do whatever the voices tell you, even when it is wrong, then, no gun rights. And I wouldn't be too comfortable with you driving a car or owning a sharp knife either.

I think you are equating them and they are not the same. Firearms are dangerous and are designed mostly to kill things. Since the chain saws and machete were not designed to do that I think there is your strawman. Lots of things can kill people but firearms are different and we gun owners should acknowledge that
emphasis added

No, they are not. Here, you have fallen into the trap of the anti gunners. Your statement that firearms are dangerous demonstrates that you think they have some innate ability of their own. They do not. Firearms, chainsaws, machetes, laptops and books are not dangerous. Only people are dangerous. Firearms may be designed to kill, but so are chainsaws and machetes designed to kill trees and plants. Knives are designed to cut. That does not make them dangerous. It is the hand that wields them, and the mind that directs it that makes anything dangerous. Guns are more efficient at killing at a distance than a knife or a bow and arrow or a thrown rock, but it is the will of the user, NOT the firearm or other object that makes it a weapon. Antigunners want us to believe that it is the gun that determines our choices of behavior, that the gun, by its mere existence causes good people to commit evil. How can any rational person simply ignore the concept that humans have free will?

Every act we do throughout our entire lives is because we choose to do it. Our reasoning behind the choice may be flawed or valid, but it is an inescapable fact that we choose to do it. We may regret doing it the moment after it happens, we may regret that it had consequences beyond what we wished, but the fact remains that at the moment we did it, we chose to do it. "I didn't mean to do it" is an emotional cop-out. Every one of us, at the instant we do it, always means to do it. "I didn't mean for what I did to have the result it did" is the honest meaning of "I didn't mean to do it", but we don't say that, or not often at any rate.

We have free will. We choose to do things, good and bad. Accept that, and move your thinking out of the dark ages. You can't have it both ways. If we don't have free will, if we are compelled by some outside force, then why are we punished for breaking the laws? If it is not our choice, what is the point of punishment? After all, if we can't help it, if it isn't our fault, what good does punishment serve? None that I can see. The fact that we have free will, and that punishment (or fear of it) influences our decisions is one of the major cornerstones of civilization.

And for those who argue that we do not have a fundamental right to military weapons, one of our Founders (Adams, I think) once said something like "all the terrible implements of the soldier are the birthright of the American people". I may not have the quote exact (going from memory here), but the implication was that ALL military weapons are the people's right. Don't bother with arguing that they could not have known about machineguns and bombs, it won't wash. They knew about cannon and explosives. Actual repeating firearms did exist during the time of our Founders, and even though primitive by today's standards, the concept that weapons would improve over time was understood by them.

Our Founders considered the people to be the militia, and believed that we should have legal protection (2nd Amendment) of our natural right to military weapons. The right to arms for personal protection is only a subset of that fundamental right. Clubs and rocks, swords and bows, rifles and cannon, machine guns and rocket launchers, all are only the details of technology. The fundamental underlying principle is the same. And it is a valid one.

It is a legal fiction, and a popular one, that the Constitution and Bill of Rights grants us our rights. They do not. And they contains language specifically stating that not all our rights are listed in them. What the Constitution and Bill of Rights are is a document listing the limits of govermental power. It is a list of what government shall not do, not a list of what citizens are allowed to do.

We have come a long, long way from what our Founders intended, and the chains we wear today have been forged patiently, link by link, over a long time by men who deliberately sought power and authority over others. And they did so while claiming nothing but the best intentions for all of us.

They lied.
 
That's only part of the equation. Firstly, where did you get the idea that the 2nd Amendment applies only to personal self defense? If you want to rewrite history for yourself, fine, but don't rewrite it for me or for the founders. The "military purposes" vs "personal defense" dichotomy is one invented in the last century by the gun-grabbers primarily as a result of the horribly-worded Miller case. It has nothing to do with the 2nd Amendment as written unless you read the Militia clause as a reference to an organized militia and as a limit on the operative clause, neither of which is tenable.

The militia was necessary because we had no standing Army. Sometime in the 20th Century we quit calling up militias and used a professional standing Army augmented by draftees until 1973 which now is all-volunteer. Self defense is I believe the meaning of the operative clause the right to keep and bear arms which is different from the militia clause. One of the Justices put it better saying that the second clause expanded the right to include personal ownership which means self-defense. That is what Heller argued about: self defense. The court will hold I believe that we have an individual right but that right is limited by law and all federal laws will remain in effect with only DC's (which was over the top) falling away.

How does regulating full-auto serve the government's interest in preventing federal crimes?

How does any law prevent crimes? Criminals don't obey laws. Using that argument we should have no laws.

Seeing as how so few crimes are committed with full-auto firearms, and even fewer are committed with full-auto firearms legally owned by private citizens,

Probably because they are controlled and hard to get. Virtually none have been committed by legally owned full auto because I submit they are so heavily regulated.

This being the case, why should you or I have to bear such a heavy legal and financial burden to lawfully defend ourselves from those who are already more than willing to break the law?

I can defend me and mine fine right now. The regulations against full auto doesn't affect that for me or you I suspect. In fact, if FA were unregulated and cheap I wouldn't keep one for self defense as they are not suitable for civilian use as such. They are designed for military use either as fire supression or area denial. My semi-auto AR-15 is more than enough and so is my revolver.
 
Agree somewhat with you except for the foreign invaders. We have professional military that does that for us today and they didn't really exist in 1790. Ain't nonbody gonna invade us with an armed force today, we have nukes.

I'll bet that people living in Rome about 2000 years ago didn't think their city would ever be invaded. I'll bet someone living in Berlin in 1939 didn't think their city would ever be invaded. I'll bet someone living in Hawaii in 1940 didn't think their territory would ever be attacked by a foreign military. I'll bet someone living in NYC in 2000 didn't think their city would ever be the victim of the worst mass murder ever carried out on U.S. soil. Unless you can see the future, you can't say that with absolute certainty.

I really don't buy the tryrannical government thing as applying to military arms being necessary. The guns we have now available to us can take care of that issue.

Well, if you were looking down the barrel of an M16 or MP5 with your sporting rifle in your hand, I think you might view this a bit differently.

I can defend me and mine fine right now. The regulations against full auto doesn't affect that for me or you I suspect. In fact, if FA were unregulated and cheap I wouldn't keep one for self defense as they are not suitable for civilian use as such. They are designed for military use either as fire supression or area denial. My semi-auto AR-15 is more than enough and so is my revolver.

Would you feel the same way if you were defending yourself from someone armed with a fully-automatic weapon? Besides, when did we start having to show a need in order to own something. Very few people need a motorcycle so should we heavily restrict or ban their ownership? Very few people need an HD TV, so should you have to pay a tax stamp to get one? Very few people need a fast car, so should you have to join a racing team to buy one? Many people don't need a big pickup truck, should you have to live on a farm or work construction to drive one?
 
No, they are not. Here, you have fallen into the trap of the anti gunners. Your statement that firearms are dangerous demonstrates that you think they have some innate ability of their own.

Yes, firearms are different from axes and scissors. This has nothing to do with evil. That is an old progun canard. We say: Guns don't kill people, people kill people" answered by the equally inane: "people kill people with guns" by the antis. We need to get beyond that. Guns are inherently dangerous and that has nothing to do with evil intent. They are dangerous and they are the number one way people murder each other. Why, because they are efficient at doing that. We lose a lot of credibility when we spout off this stuff that guns are like toasters when we and the rest of the public know better. Rather I think it is better to say "Yes they are dangerous, but I and you can learn to handle them safely and at the same time protect ourselves from harm with them".
 
Guns are inherently dangerous and that has nothing to do with evil intent. They are dangerous and they are the number one way people murder each other. Why, because they are efficient at doing that.

If a gun is so inherently dangerous, then why don't they just go off by themselves? Since you proclaimed that firearms are the "number one way" people murder each other and that they're "efficient at doing that," perhaps you'd be so kind as to provide some documentation showing both what percentage of homicides firearms are used in and what percentage of gunshot wounds are fatal.
 
Under some well settled principles of Constitutional law, federal courts, including the Supreme Court, have long permitted government to regulate Constitutional rights, subject to certain constraints.

Court rulings have for many years permitted regulation of a Constitutional right as necessary to further a compelling state interest as long as such regulation is as narrow it may possibly be and still serve that interest. Any such regulation must not totally obviate the Constitutional right. Furthermore, any such regulation must be evenly applied and not subject to the discretion of governmental authority. Application of these principles may be understood, I think, in relation to the First Amendment.

While the First Amendment protects freedom of speech, assembly and religion, we know there has been a history of certain regulation of speech, assembly and religion. A few examples are:

[1] Laws prohibiting such things as false advertising, fraud or misrepresentation, as well as laws requiring certain disclosures in connection with various transactions, would absolutely survive a challenge to their validity on Constitutional grounds even though such laws do impinge on the freedom of speech. Among other things, such laws serve compelling state interests related to promoting honest business and helping to preserve the integrity of commercial transactions. They tend to be only as broad as necessary to serve that function.

[2] Laws respecting the time, place and manner of speech or assembly have also survived Constitutional challenges. Thus a municipality may require that organizers obtain a permit in order to hold an assembly or a parade and may prohibit such activities during, for example, the very early morning hours. Such regulations would be permitted only to the extent necessary to serve the compelling state interest of protecting public health and safety. Any such regulations, to be constitutionally permissible, could not consider the content of the speech or assembly; and they would need to be applied in an even handed manner based on set guidelines and not subject to the discretion of a public official.

[3] In the past, laws prohibiting polygamy have been upheld against challenges that they violate the right to free exercise of religion. And if someone’s religion required the practice of human sacrifice, he can not expect to successfully hide behind the First Amendment if prosecuted for murder (or assisting a suicide if the victim were willing).

So with a favorable ruling in Heller, we will continue to see regulation of the RKBA, and I suspect that much current regulation will survive constitutional challenge. And there will be continued litigation testing existing law, as well as new laws.

But what will survive is an open question. I'd expect background checks and laws keeping guns out of the hands of felons and psychiatric patients, etc., will stay with us. Much of the NFA will probably be found constitutional, as will, I think, shall issue concealed carry permit laws will stay as well. We should see the end of laws that give discretion to government officials in connection with the RKBA (as in NYC, Massachusetts, New Jersey, etc.).
 
Again, no, they are not.

Guns are inherently dangerous and that has nothing to do with evil intent.

It has everything to do with evil intent. Outside of actual accidents (and we are not discussing accidents) evil intent is the ONLY thing that makes gun "dangerous". There are millions upon millions of guns in this country alone that harm NO ONE.

It is a problem with the English language that most people misunderstand the meaning of the phrase "dangerous weapons". Many assume that since the purpose of a weapon is to harm others it must be a dangerous thing. But by doing so, they are inconsistant in the use of language. And that is where the misunderstanding somes in.

A dangerous weapon is one that is harmful (dangerous) to the user. Just as a dangerous toaster is one that is harmful to the user, by giving an electrical shock. It is not considered dangerous to the bread, yet it burns it. That is what it is intended to do. A dangerous bicycle is one that will cause injury when ridden. A dangerous item is one that can cause harm outside of its intended function. With every other item when we use the word dangerous, that is what we mean. Why do you think using the word dangerous with the word weapon ought to mean anything different?

If one thinks something is dangerous because it is a weapon, one is being redundant. One might as well say "weapon weapon". That sounds good, doesn't it? And by the same token, a weapon is only a weapon if it is capable of causing harm (which is one definition of the word "dangerous"), so if it isn't "dangerous", it isn't a weapon. So you could also say "dangerous dangerous" and be equally correct. Again, doesn't sound so good, does it.

The phrase "dangerous weapon" is a deliberate garbling of the English language to create a specific emotional connotation. It is "spin".

If you wish to be accurate, instead of saying "dangerous weapon" you should say "defective weapon".
Guns don't kill people, people kill people" answered by the equally inane: "people kill people with guns"

They may be canards and inane to you, but the fact is that they are factual statements. If you choose to focus on the specifc tool used for killing, instead of the issue of killing itself, I believe you are directing your efforts in the wrong direction. A person shot is no less dead than one stabbed, strangled, or beaten to death. Nor are they any more dead by being shot with a gun that holds 17 bullets than by a gun that holds one.

We should not "get beyond it", because it is one of the roots of the debate. The fundamental idea that is somehow worse to murder someone with item A then it is with item B or C is one of the things I am arguing against. On my side of this argument, it does not matter what item you use to commit the murder, a machine gun, a gun, a knife, a rope, a candlestick, a gallon of gas and some matches, or a jet airliner and some box cutters.

No matter who you are, if you are one of the people who believe that my ability to own certain inanimate objects should be legally restricted or prevented because of the actions of others, or because of what you fear I might do with those inanimate objects, without a single shred of proof, or worse yet, what those objects might cause me to do, again without a single shred of proof or evidence, they we will have a serious difference of opinion. And I believe you are the one in error.

I freely accept that the govt has authority to regulate how I use my property in public, but I feel that them telling me what I can or cannot own and use on my own property (that harms no one) is wrong, and against the principles of our Founding Fathers. I accept the fact that they have the power to do this, and I obey the laws, even though I may disagree with them. I just don't think they ought to do it. I don't believe poeple should be punished until after they harm someone else, if they ever do.
 
Tennessee: You consistently state guns are designed to kill things. Sure they are. For hunters they are designed to kill game. No one would deny that.

However, firearms in the hands of law abiding citizens, for self-defense and militia purposes, are arguably designed to save lives. They do so by killing criminals and invaders. And God forbid, any tyrant that might attempt to take over the USA in some future nightmare scenario.

You're falling into the age old trap the anti-gunners put forth when they say "guns are only for killing". That's a strawman argument if I ever saw one. Simplistic "catch-all" phrases are silly and serve little purpose in arguing for or against the 2nd Amendment IMHO. To me, firearms are clearly designed to save the lives of the innocent.

As to the NFA, the subsequent 1986 prohibition is a violation of the 2nd Amendment. Citizens, as stated in Miller, are allowed to own firearms commonly used by the military. Some of the SCOTUS justices opined this very fact in the oral arguments. Some of the justices seemed uneasy with that one because they recognized the arguable violation of the 1986 prohibition.

Now, will regulating full auto firearms stand up to legal scrutiny. Probably because of the inherent fear those weapons create in the minds of many citizens.

However, the de-facto ban on automatic rifles, for example, might very well be overturned in the future. Time will tell on that one.

I clearly understand the concerns people have for allowing free, unlimited access to full auto firearms. I do not understand the silly "guns are designed only for killing" argument. They are manufactured to save lives and ensure our freedom IMHO. Those are the main points of the 2nd Amendment IMHO. :)
 
I totally agree with Tennessee Gentleman that guns were designed to kill. But that is not necessarily a "dangerous" thing. It depends upon who is being killed and for what reason.

If a criminal breaks into my house and uses a gun to shoot and kill me, that's BAD. If a criminal breaks into my house and threatens me, then, I use a gun to shoot and kill him, thats GOOD.

TG has fallen directly into the trap that the anti gun side has laid by agreeing with their terminology and telling the pro gun rights side that we are going to lose if we don't accept their terminology as being the truth.

I've got news for you TG. It doesn't matter if we accept their terminology or not, they will still consider us to be whackos and crazies for the mere fact that we own guns in the first place. Do you think Rosie O'Donnel will think of you as her equal if you go to her and say, "Ms. O'Donnel, I am a gun owner who agrees with you that guns are dangerous". While she may or may not say it to your face, her thought would likely be, "Then why don't you get rid of them you stupid, knuckle dragging, redneck?"

Trying to appease the anti's by agreeing to use their terminology is no way to defeat them. And yes, this is a battle for our 2nd ammendment rights. When you are in a battle, the object is to defeat those whom you would be fighting against. They are commonly called, "The Enemy".

When was the last time you heard an anti gunner or pro gun control person agree that any terminology the pro gun rights side uses is the correct one? That should tell you something about how serious they are about winning.
 
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44 AMP. here is the correct quote you were trying to use:

"The militia of these free commonwealths, entitled and accustomed to their arms, when compared with any possible army, must be tremendous and irresistible. Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom. Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American ... the unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." Tench Coxe, Pennsylvania Gazette, February 20, 1788 (writing in favor of ratification of the Constitution and what the central government had no power to do).​

There is also this:

"Whereas civil rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as military forces, which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms." Tench Coxe, writing as "A Pennsylvanian," in "Remarks On The First Part Of The Amendments To The Federal Constitution," in the Philadelphia Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789 (writing in favor of a specific amendment within the proposed Bill of Rights).​

A good reading on what the "Right" was meant to be, may be found in a paper written for the William and Mary Bill of Rights Journal, February 1999 edition. This scholarly paper extensively documents Tench Coxe and his role in the Second Amendment. Written by Stephen Hallbrook and David Kopel, it can be found here.
 
If a gun is so inherently dangerous, then why don't they just go off by themselves?

Guns are dangerous because they are likely and able to produce harm and they are designed to do that. That is why we carry them for self-defense. BTW I have seen defective guns "go off" by themselves. If you and others here take the position that firearms are no more dangerous than toasters or spoons then I say that is faulty and unreal reasoning and you will never win the public debate with that line of thought and will invite more gun control laws.

Since you proclaimed that firearms are the "number one way" people murder each other and that they're "efficient at doing that," perhaps you'd be so kind as to provide some documentation showing both what percentage of homicides firearms are used in and what percentage of gunshot wounds are fatal.

Why don't you go look it up.

I totally agree with Tennessee Gentleman that guns were designed to kill. But that is not necessarily a "dangerous" thing. It depends upon who is being killed and for what reason.

Dangerous has nothing to do with intent!!! Guns don't have a mind but they ARE dangerous because they are designed to kill! When you use a gun in self defense and kill a bad guy the gun is dangerous to the bad guy. You just killed him. That is different from whether he should have been shot or not! You are falling into the antis trap and don't see it! They equate danger with good and bad intentions and they are different. Things like guns and other inanimate objects are not regulated because they are good or bad but because of the danger to the public safety. When you argue about whether a gun is dangerous or not based on good and evil you are playing into the antis arguments! Instead of foolishly trying to convince them guns aren't dangerous, I say; Hell Yeah they're dangerous and that is why I practice with them and observe the safety rules and so on. However, I am also a law abiding citizen who will not misuse them and will safely carry them for self-defense and I will submit to some reasonable regulations of that right (like CCW permits). I will not comment or respond any more to the argument that if something is dangerous it is bad.

The original argument was about what are reasonable restrictions and I go along with the idea of weapons in common use and suitable for civilian self-defense. I think the courts and legislatures will agree with me and I think my position is right. Many of you do not and I knew that when I posted but many gun owners like me don't buy into all the progun positions many of you hold that would remove almost every firearm regulation from the books. We don't always post here cause we don't have time to argue with all of you but I post from time to time just to let some of the zealots know there are other opinions. I don't believe in mental orthodoxy and I vote that way too. The gun owner world is a big tent and many of us do not believe there should be no restrictions at all on firearms ownership. Get used to it because we won't vote with you on everything you want.
 
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A question for the original poster or anybody else ...

When the 2nd Amendment was written, most of the things mentioned in the OP didn't exist; the "arms" they were referring to were muskets and single shot pistols ... because they could not see into the future, do you feel the wording of the amendment pertains today WITHOUT any controls at all? Should I be able to go buy a fully automatic rifle, based on the wording of the 2nd amendment? Did the founding father imagine a handgun that could carry 15-20 rounds of ammunition that could be fired in just a few seconds?

I'm not making the argument, so don't yell at me ... I'm just raising a question ... and if I was sitting on the Supreme Court, I'd imagine one of my fellow justices might have raised it too ...
 
The original argument was about what are reasonable restrictions and I go along with the idea of weapons in common use and suitable for civilian self-defense. I think the courts and legislatures will agree with me and I think my position is right.

This is not a legal argument, however, it's your list of preferences. The closest it gets to legal reasoning is a rational basis test that anything a legislature can give any reason for is OK. The Second Amendment says nothing about civilian self-defense. I think you're having a problem conflating your preferences with what would be permitted under different standards of review.
 
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