2nd Amendment Regulation

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And arguing against a ban is not the same as arguing for full access with no restrictions. It's just arguing against a ban.

I think you are arguing for no restrictions other than those currently on non-NFA weapons. Right? The opposite of ban is to have? What restrictions other than those currently in place for non-NFA weapons would you impose?

BTW, the Hughes amendment really shouldn't be repealed. It should be overturned as unconstitutional.

Good luck with that one;)
 
USAFNoDak,
I may have used the wrong word in this case. I think it is clear from my sentence that I was saying the AR-15 and the M-16 are different weapons. I am doing a lot of typing answering a lot of posts and you are picking nits. You are better than that! Save that for politicians.

I guess all firarms are related to one another in some way. Hell, maybe even knives are too. That was not what the OP was about it was about what firearms should be restricted and that was my context.

No it was not clear from your sentence. You specifically answered my challenge to tell us how the M16 and the AR15 were not related, because you said that military firearms have no relation to the AR15. Words mean things, and I tend to hold people to their words. I too am doing a lot of typing. That's not a valid excuse. I am not picking nits. I am focusing on the words you used, which have very different meaning. I don't believe it was accidental. Even though identical twins are different, they are VERY closely related.

I took up this debate because I don't believe that the M16 should be banned when an AR15 is totally fine. You have an AR15, but you don't want people owning an M16. I'll try one more time. How are they so different that one is much more dangerous than the other, in such a way as you would call for it to be virtually banned? The two are closely related, even if they are different.


You are better than that! Save that for politicians.

Thanks for the compliment. I think I'm pretty good myself. Maybe a little arrogant at times, but we all have to have at least one fault. Do we not? How do you know I'm not a politician?
 
Those guys don't meet their constitutuents very often, unless they are really small town types. But that's not typically where we have the problems with rampant crime. It's in big cities where the head LEO's don't spend time out amongst "the people". They spend their time on political and administrative meetings and duties for the most part.

They do collect a lot of intell however, and they know who are in gangs and other criminal activity, who associates with them even though they don't have formal criminal records the locals know about a lot of them.
 
There is no right that isn't restricted. The 2nd A is no different.
"Infringement to the right" is not infringement to any and all activity; is the basic right of freedom from search and seizure taken away by letting the police come in when they hear gunshots in a home? No. Would the people want them to stay out by law in such circumstances? No, I'm sure most people would not want such a law.

70% of Americans desire gun-rights be an individual right, but a right capable of restrictions.

That is common sense. How far a restriction can go gets settled by the people, through lawmakers and future court adjudications.
 
I'll try one more time. How are they so different that one is much more dangerous than the other, in such a way as you would call for it to be virtually banned? The two are closely related, even if they are different.

I have answered that question repeatedly and will not do so again.

Words mean things, and I tend to hold people to their words. I too am doing a lot of typing. That's not a valid excuse. I am not picking nits.

I think my choice of words was not the best using the word related when I was talking about the operation of the two. However, you are picking nits and my use of that word was not "disingenuous". If we have exhausted all intelligent conversation and are now working towards ad hominem and absurdity then maybe it is time to no longer converse. Are we done? If not, don't bring up something silly like that again please.
 
I have little doubt that every civil liberty has its critics as a matter of policy. The protections of the 1st, 4th, 5th and 8th amendments all have their policy critics. However the policy choice behind civil liberties was already made by the people who ratified the COTUS.

I'll repeat, No. You said they were not related. Now you've switched your claim to "they are different". But that's not what you originally claimed. That's being a little bit disingenuous in my book, TG.
USAFNoDak,
I may have used the wrong word in this case.

That's an interesting conversational tactic -- make a specific point, then effectively deny making the point, and only when the conversation over a half dozen posts is reproduced, only then concede that in an argument made of words, you "may have" used the wrong word.

Then criticise the one who corrects you.

...you are picking nits. You are better than that! Save that for politicians.

...and ask that he not do it again.

Are we done? If not, don't bring up something silly like that again please.
 
That is common sense. How far a restriction can go gets settled by the people, through lawmakers and future court adjudications.

I don't necessarily disagree until it comes to "prior restraint".

Do I want people to be able to "freely" yell "FIRE" in a public theater? Heck no. Why? Because it likely would cause panic and chaos, which could lead to injury and/or death of innocent people. Thus, we have a law against it. But you must first actually yell "fire" for the law to come down on you. Prior restraint would be that you cannot say anything in the theater because of the fear that you might yell fire, or that all patrons would have duct tape put over their mouths so that they couldn't yell out inside of the theater.

Telling me I can't own a handgun because I might use it for criminal purposes, is prior restraint of my right to keep and bear arms. Telling me I cannot have a handgun because handguns are used by criminals for illicit purposes goes beyond prior restraint in that it punishes the innocent for the actions of the criminals.

Now, a "reasonable" restriction on my right to keep and bear arms is that I cannot use my handgun for target practice at the local park, unless said park has a public gun range where it would be "safe" to do so. Laws against discharging firearms within city limits are OK too, because those laws would not be enforced if I was forced to shoot at some intruder in my house or on my property if he threatened me. That should be classified as self defense, in which case, "discharging a firearm" laws would not apply.

Also, I wouldn't have a problem with local governments saying that if you want to carry a handgun, we'd prefer you carry it concealed to prevent our sheeple from freeking out. For you see, we've 'dumbed" most of them down in our public schools so that they are scared poopless at the mere sight of a gun. The media has helped us in that regard. So, we understand you have a right to keep and bear a handgun in public, according to the 2nd A., but, could you please keep them out of sight to avoid panic in the streets.

In some states, you can openly carry, but you must have a permit to carry concealed. I'm not against that necessarily, as most state constitutions specifically state that the government may regulate the carrying of concealed weapons. That comes from the time when the sheeple weren't scared poopless of guns and it was accepted practice to carry them around. Anyone carrying concealed was thought to have criminal intentions in mind, where the element of surprise was necessary to commit the crime.

But prior restraint of law abiding citizens civil rights should not be tolerated in my opinion. That goes for any rights, but especially rights which the COTUS says "shall not be infringed". Having a law that says I cannot shoot my handgun at the local park does not infringe on my right to keep and bear arms. A law that says I cannot keep a handgun in my house, certainly does infringe upon my right.
 
I'll try one more time. How are they so different that one is much more dangerous than the other, in such a way as you would call for it to be virtually banned? The two are closely related, even if they are different.

I have answered that question repeatedly and will not do so again.

Well, it seems to me you answered it by first saying that the two were not related, military weapons (M16) and the AR15. Later you said they were different. I agree that they are different, though very closely related. I don't believe you have answered the question of why an M16 is so much more dangerous than an AR15. At least, I haven't seen that answer. Maybe I missed it. I don't have time to go back and read all of your posts. Maybe you can do me a favor and give me the post number your answer is in so I can go and read it without wading through all of the others.
 
I think my choice of words was not the best using the word related when I was talking about the operation of the two. However, you are picking nits and my use of that word was not "disingenuous". If we have exhausted all intelligent conversation and are now working towards ad hominem and absurdity then maybe it is time to no longer converse. Are we done? If not, don't bring up something silly like that again please.

Then why didn't you say, "USAFNodak, I apologize. I meant to say 'different' instead of 'related'"? Instead, you claimed that you said they were "different", when indeed that is NOT what you said. I don't believe I'm nitpicking, but if you think I'm silly, feel free to ignore me. Based upon the way you used those very different words, I said I felt that it was being a little disingenuous. That hardly qualifies as an ad hominem attack or absurdity. But if you feel it is, then you can ignore me as if I've never conversed with you. That too, is one of our freedoms in this Greatest Nation on God's Green Earth. I can blather on all I want. You don't have to read my posts or listen to me.
 
Then why didn't you say, "USAFNodak, I apologize.

Because I didn't wrong you.

Maybe I missed it. I don't have time to go back and read all of your posts. Maybe you can do me a favor and give me the post number your answer is in so I can go and read it without wading through all of the others.

Alright, since you asked so nicely I'll do this one more time.

An M-16 is a machinegun. Machineguns are more lethal than semi-auto weapons (like the AR-15) or other manually operated small arms. Why is this? Because when you pull the trigger with the "happy switch" on lots and lots of bullets come out real fast. The more bullets that are fired the greater the chance you will hit something. This is precisely why the military adopted them was because they can kill a lot of people real fast.

Their intended use is for a)fire suppression and b) area denial. These purposes are not advisable for use in civilian self defense situations because spraying bullets about tend to hit innocent bystanders, not too big a problem for the military in combat. Machine guns are also difficult to control, particularly when shoulder fired. The muzzle will rise as the weapon is fired causing many of the rounds fired to miss the target and go on to perhaps hit other people or things.

Think of this scenario: Joe Horn, that famous vigilante from Texas, had an M-16A1 instead of the shotgun he used to shoot those guys in the back. Joe, who just bought the M-16 since we repealed the NFA wants to kill these guys (as he told the 911 operator) so he grabs his M-16 which he has never fired because it is too expensive to shoot and outside he goes. He correctly surmises that if semi-auto will kill these guys, full-auto will do it better since he will have less chance of not hitting them, so he puts it on rock and roll and fires 'em up. He does indeed kill them but his other 25 rounds go into neighboring homes and kill and wound several innocent people. Now, of course Joe is arrested and sued to pieces but the neighbors are dead. They might not have been so if Joe had stayed with his trusty shotgun. Joe might have hit innocent bystanders with the shotgun (furhter showing his recklessness) but the chance are he would have had less of a chance of doing so with OO Buckshot as opposed to the 25 rifle bullets that didn't hit the bad guys.

Because of the operation (the way it shoots) of the machinegun this is more likely to happen than with other types of weapons. I would be very concerned and frightened to have a neighbor like Joe Horn with an automatic weapon such as the M16.

This is why an M16 is more dangerous than a AR-15. I hope that is all you need cause I ain't repeating it.

Finally go here if you won't take my word for it and see what the US Army has to say about machineguns: http://www.authorstream.com/presentation/Sudiksha-53138-Machine-Gun-Employment-ofMACHINE-GUNS-INTRODUCTION-REPLACE-HORSE-INSTRUMENT-t-e-of-the-mach-Entertainment-ppt-powerpoint/
 
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So 3 round burst shouldn't be under the NFA by that standard. The advantage it offers is multiple hits to put down an aggressor quickly, which is a perfectly good application for civilian self defense. Rather than lots and lots of bullets fast it's made to reinforce good aim with fast followup shots to add effectiveness, and when you've gotta end a threat, you want it done RIGHT THEN. Not another step, not another shot fired or stab, slash, or striking blow. Interestingly enough that's exactly why the military has 3 round burst on everything that isn't belt fed. IIRC it's only LE that's using full auto on individual firearms.
 
So 3 round burst shouldn't be under the NFA by that standard. The advantage it offers is multiple hits to put down an aggressor quickly, which is a perfectly good application for civilian self defense. Rather than lots and lots of bullets fast it's made to reinforce good aim with fast followup shots to add effectiveness, and when you've gotta end a threat, you want it done RIGHT THEN. Not another step, not another shot fired or stab, slash, or striking blow. Interestingly enough that's exactly why the military has 3 round burst on everything that isn't belt fed. IIRC it's only LE that's using full auto on individual firearms.

So, you would outlaw all the others? What does the BATFE say about three round burst? I have seen soldiers miss and hit other things even with the three round burst. I don't think it is the panacea you believe. In fact we trained our soldiers NOT to use FA except when they were in the position of Automatic Rifleman.
 
I don't believe I'm nitpicking, but if you think I'm silly, feel free to ignore me.

I am here for some honest discussion. I am NOT here to play debate club with a bunch of pin heads who sit around with a dictionary or who think they are Socrates (the philosopher, not the guy who posts here) and answer a question with a question. These types comb through past posts looking for inconsistencies so they can say "Gotcha!" to help their own insecurities. Sorry I won't play with them.

PS I just discovered the ignore feature! I like it.
 
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Tennessee Gentleman said:
After that yeah take away the $200 except for explosive devices and the '86 ban as well and we might have a deal!

I don't check the thread for a few days, and what do you know, potential progress ! :)
 
No I wouldn't outlaw others at all, or even restrict them, but I would see that 3 round burst comes off the NFA list if at all possible first if full select fire doesn't. I think it could be more likely argued favorably as I have. Either way, I'd really like to see suppressors de-listed first, as doing such will be imminently useful in getting more non-firearms familiar folks to join us by making experience at the range a lot more pleasant.
 
Either way, I'd really like to see suppressors de-listed first, as doing such will be imminently useful in getting more non-firearms familiar folks to join us by making experience at the range a lot more pleasant.

It is an issue of safety as well, as any of us with hearing loss can attest.
 
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