.270 Win vs. .270 WSM

WSM's are great!

I currently own two .300WSM's. The advantage of them over a standard .308 is plain to see when you shoot out to or beyond 300 yards. I would also like to address the data that the reloading books provide for handloads. Every one of them is drastically reduced. The WSM's are capable of so much more especially with the newer powders being released. It's not uncommon to get 3150fps out of a 180 grain bullet. The 165grain bullets are getting between 3250 and 3300fps. Compare this to a standard .308 where a max load with 165 grain bullets will result in only 2800fps. An improvement of 450fps and much more energy! Another thing I've noticed is that working up loads seemed easy. Just about everything shot under an inch and my final loads after 3 trips to the range were under a half inch in both guns.

That being said, I don't have any experience with the .270WSM, though I want to. I suspect that the factory load data is similar to what I found with the .300WSM, understated. I would bet money that I could work up a safe load that would push a 140grain Nosler Ballistic Tip at 3250-3300fps. That's still 250-300fps more muzzle velocity than the standard .270. Muzzle energy in the standard old .270 starts out at 2798 vs. the .270WSM at 3284. That's over 400 ft/lbs of energy difference. At 400 yards the difference is 1527 vs. 1822. Still nearly 300 ft/lbs difference! The nice part about the .277 caliber is that it retains energy downrange due to it's high Ballistic Coefficient (BC). So the more you generate at the muzzle, the more it will have downrange.

The question really becomes, do you believe this extra energy/velocity is worth it? Well, if you're going to handload the price will be virtually identical. Brass may be a bit more expensive for the WSM but brass isn't a large expense. The WSM will use a bit more powder but once you settle on a load and buy in bulk the price per cartridge will be fairly inexpensive. Primers are the same as well as the bullets. Personally, I believe that a .270 with the proper bullet and good shot placement are fine for anything on the North American continent. However, I consider it marginal for some of the larger game. That is to say it wouldn't be my preferred gun for hunting elk. I would, in that case, select something with more energy. The .270WSM does exactly that.

I would select the WSM but that's because I'm comfortable with the recoil from much larger, more powerful, guns. What should you select? I can't answer that for you. The safe thing to do would be to buy a standard .270 and if you ever got a chance to go elk or bear hunting use the excuse that the .270 is a borderline gun for those types of game to convince the other half to allow the purchase of another gun more suited to those purposes. At that point the .270 would become a backup gun that would be capable of getting the job done in a pinch. Can't beat that solution!
 
That being said, I don't have any experience with the .270WSM, though I want to. I suspect that the factory load data is similar to what I found with the .300WSM, understated. I would bet money that I could work up a safe load that would push a 140grain Nosler Ballistic Tip at 3250-3300fps. That's still 250-300fps more muzzle velocity than the standard .270. Muzzle energy in the standard old .270 starts out at 2798 vs. the .270WSM at 3284. That's over 400 ft/lbs of energy difference. At 400 yards the difference is 1527 vs. 1822. Still nearly 300 ft/lbs difference! The nice part about the .277 caliber is that it retains energy downrange due to it's high Ballistic Coefficient (BC). So the more you generate at the muzzle, the more it will have downrange.
Click to expand...

I won't take your bet, because I know every rifle is different. To push a 140 grain bullet as fast as you think you can would be dangerously over pressure IMO for the .270 WSM. With your knowledge of the .308 and .300 WSM I can see where you might jump to the conclusion that the .270 WSM will best the .270 by a large margin. One thing to take into consideration with the .270 Win is that it already pushes bullets at "Magnum" velocities. For years the only commercial cartridge to best it was the .270 Weatherby, but it had to burn large volumes of powder to do it.

There are some published loads that will get a .270 Win to 3000 fps with a 140 grain bullet. I've yet to find published data that will get a .270 WSM to 3200 fps. I'm not talking about some "pet" load a guy put on the web. I'm talking bullet and powder manufacturers pressure tested load data. I checked Hornady, Sierra, Nosler, and Hogdon data that I have on hand.

As I stated in an earlier post the best you can ever expect is around 200 fps and 300 ft-lbs more energy at the most out of the .270 WSM and this is only with the heavier bullets. With lighter bullets <130 grains the .270 WSM is only able to best the old .270 by about 100 fps at most. If you ever get a chance read what P.O. Ackley had to say about the .270 Win, basicly he said the .30-06 case was the optimum size for the .277 bullet.
 
Last edited:
I am a fan of the .30-06 family, so my vote is for the .270 over the WSM. One thing to consider is ammo availability. Almost any gun shop will have ammo for the .270, if for some reason you need it. Walk into a very small mom and pop store and ask for a box of .270 WSM. Enough said.
 
Yes there is a ballistic advantage of about 200 +/- fps with factory loads with the same bullets. Which only equates to around a 7" advantage in trajectory at 500 yards, and 2" of wind drift at the same range and 25 more yards of point blank range.
Click to expand...

Yes, yes, all true. However I am of the opinion that shooting beyond 400 yards with hunting cartridges is unethical. The probability of instant death to the animal is low and people are highly likely to injure an animal which will run off and die an agonizing death. Death due to infection is horrible for man or beast. For 99% of the shooting population, 300 yards ought to be the max.

I am lucky to shoot almost every weekend of the year in some sort of rifle competition. Yesterday I arrived at the 600 yard stage at a range I have shot so many times that I have data books full of zero’s and data. I shot a rifle which I had a good 600 zero, my sighting shots were with ammunition which I had data, and used before at that firing line. I took my best guess of windage, and yet my first sighting shot was in the eight ring. That is 24 inches away from the center of the target. http://www.nrahq.org/compete/RuleBooks/HPR/hpr-w04.pdf

I ended the match with only 1.5 MOA of wind right, which is about 9 inches, wind however varies between shots and people who don't shoot on paper don't appreciate just how much bullets move due to wind. People who don't shoot on paper don't appreciate how much point of impact changes due to position. Yesterday I was squadded with a F Class National Champ and we discussed how often we can correct off center shots with a positional change. (conversely, perversely, how often a good score is blown because of a positional change.)

Since hunting involves unknown ranges, unknown wind, with rifles that don’t have 66 fouling rounds through the tube by the time you take your first long range shot, there is a low probability of acheiving a quick kill at long range.

Out to three hundred yards there is very little difference in trajectory between a 270 Win and 270 WSM. The 270 Win with a 130 is an outstanding round at 300 yards and you can buy ammunition everywhere. I have three 270’s, not one 270 WSM. While the count of 270’s may increase, the number of 270 WSM’s will stay the same.
 
700sage, I would encourage you to step lightly on this forum when advocating loads above published recommended max. I've found out the hard way there is little tolerance for the dispersion of unsafe information to masses via this forum.

As for the discussion at hand, I like "new" stuff as much as anybody (although ironically I can't seem to move past the skeleton stocks ruger quit making in the 90's:confused:). I have a 270 win and have researched the 270wsm a little bit. For my purposes there is not a distinct enough advantage to own both. I've never really gotten into the long vs. short action debate. It's a red car vs. blue car debate....all personal preference in my opinion. I shoot both long & short and appreciate things about both. I already have the 270 & the 25-06 in the same platform and prefer the lil-06. For my hunting it fits perfectly & has never let me down. However, I keep eyeing the 30-06 in the same setup just to complete the trifecta:D
 
"700sage, I would encourage you to step lightly on this forum when advocating loads above published recommended max."

I can only speak from experience when talking about loads. In my experience the books are wrong nearly every time as to what a max load is. I don't advocate starting at the levels that I talk about. I always start with book data and work up. Usually I will start to notice ejector marks on the case first. Then the bolt will get hard to lift. If you are working up loads slowly as you should be you will notice these things and back off just below the signs. In my experience I've been able to push beyond the book data with every gun I've ever owned (this includes 21 bolt action rifles). We must remember that book data is intended to operate in every gun ever designed in that particular caliber. This means that no book can tell me what max loads are in my gun. The books are a guideline to get you started, nothing more. I won't use them as hard and fast data because, as you say, every gun is different. Again, all I can do is speak from experience. Every gun I have ever loaded for beat the book levels. I have never had a handload suddenly blow up or do anything remotely dangerous. We have to remember that increasing loads slowly, nothing bad will just suddenly happen. There are warning signs before you really get to a dangerous level where the round might actually cause some damage. More than likely if you ignore these signs with a bolt gun the worst that will happen is a stuck bolt.

I will be the first to admit that the loads I use are hot. They are designed for my gun, and my gun alone. I always suggest starting with book data and working up a load specifically for your gun. This is how I was taught and how I have gotten all of my loads for my various guns. I don't stray from the process because you never know. One of these days the books may be right.
 
Keep in mind I wasn't arguing with you at all or denigrating your procedure. I was simply offering a bit of "sage" advice regarding how I was treated when discussing a load above book max. It is generally frowned upon by the staff with the occasional middle finger 'thunk' to the head like everyone used to get from their old man.

Btw, a fellow TFL'er by the handle of cornbush had an alarming experience recently with a massive overpressure situation. Thankfully for him it was housed in arguably the strongest action on the market (ruger) and the personal injury was limited. The rifle was ruined but at least he didn't have to stop the rearward thrust of the bolt with his face.

There's still so much I don't know about reloading, but at the same time I am not green to it. I've often found the best repeatable accuracy in my rifles is obtained below the max book load. Your mileage obviously varies in that regard which is understandably why you're a proponent of hotrodding them a little bit. To each his own; just wanted to let you know my experience here.

Cheers!
 
I appreciate the advice. I have often been told by people that they attain max accuracy at below max pressures. I have not always experienced this. My 7mmMag loves to be shot hot. It puts up 3/4" groups at 200 yards with a load that is just showing signs of pressure on summer days. For this reason I only shoot the gun in the winter, LOL! Regardless, I don't do much shooting in competition so most of my loads are intended for hunting. Because of this I try and squeeze every ounce of energy out of a gun that I can. As long as accuracy stays below 1" at 100 yards I'll accept the load if it benefits me in energy over a more accurate load. I have found that I like to find a powder that will give me at least 98-99% load density without signs of pressure. This, for me, has been a thumb rule for accuracy in just about every weapon I own. There are a few exceptions like a marlin 336 in .35 remington that I squeeze 3031 into at over 100% load density. The gun just likes a compressed load, but that's rare. Anyhow, great to hear about other peoples experiences and good talking to ya.
 
Lately I've been seeing an awful lot of the super-duper-mushroom-magnum rifles for sale CHEAP at the gunshows.

To be honest, the ballistics aren't much different, and I squeeze my .270 brass out of mil-surp .30-06 cases for 10 - 15 cents a case. My old Remington 721 will hold 1 inch groups at 200 yards with hand-loads.

I can see the (to me SLIGHT) advantage of the shorter action, but the WSM cartridges are just so damned ugly.

You'd have never caught Hemingway pulling one of those things out of his cartridge pouch. :barf:

KR
 
All that to ask this: Do I gain enough for my purposes to warrant the extra recoil and cost of ammo to justify the Short Mag?
Click to expand...
In a word - no! I had a 270 WSM, but the slight improvement wasn't worth the expensive ammo price. And, it was harder to get than regular 270. A standard 270 will work just fine for what you intend to use it for.
 
Yes, yes, all true. However I am of the opinion that shooting beyond 400 yards with hunting cartridges is unethical.
Click to expand...

I never suggested the OP shoot to 500 yards on game when I gave the data. I was merely summarizing easy to find ammunition data. Most manufacturers list their data out to 500 yards, I could have easily shortened the distance, but I didn't.

As far as ethics go I usually try to stay out of that battle since there is never a winning side to that battle.
 
I'd recommend the 270 Win because ammo is cheaper and rifle selection is better.

However let's clear up some misunderstandings about the WSMs.

They do give a real ballistic advantage over their 30-06 based counterparts. It may not be important to you, it may not be worth the money to you, but it does exist.
Click to expand...

Sounds like a severe case of PII (Preoccupation w/ Inconsequential Increments) .....

Any deer or black bear would not have a clue whether the .277 bullet that killed it was launched by a .270 WIN or a .270 WSM. If you don't handload, your wallet will be the only one to notice. If you do handload, then the ballistic difference between the two is even smaller...... and you are still paying through the nose for brass, so long as they keep making it......

The question still stands: Anybody know how to form this brass out of a more commonly available case?

Short action rifles are lighter and handle better than long action rifles. It's a real advantage for **some** types of hunting, not so much for others. If you appreciate the short action concept, the WSMs are the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Click to expand...

"Handling" is more a function of familiarity with your firearm than length/weight/balance. The only time I could imagine a long barrel being a problem is dismounting a vehichle quickly ..... a non-issue for me, when hunting.

As for the sliced bread analogy, it would be apt if they were charging you $5.00 a loaf for the presliced stuff, and you bought it anyhow. ...... those of us that bake our own have no problems operating a bread knife, either.
 
I'd recommend the 270 Win because ammo is cheaper and rifle selection is better.

However let's clear up some misunderstandings about the WSMs.

They do give a real ballistic advantage over their 30-06 based counterparts. It may not be important to you, it may not be worth the money to you, but it does exist.
Click to expand...
Sounds like a severe case of PII (Preoccupation w/ Inconsequential Increments) .....

Any deer or black bear would not have a clue whether the .277 bullet that killed it was launched by a .270 WIN or a .270 WSM. If you don't handload, your wallet will be the only one to notice. If you do handload, then the ballistic difference between the two is even smaller...... and you are still paying through the nose for brass, so long as they keep making it......

The question still stands: Anybody know how to form this brass out of a more commonly available case?
Click to expand...

Might I point out that I recommended the same cartridge, the 270 Win, for the same reason you did, ammo cost?

The 270 WSM launches the same bullets about 200 fps faster than a 270 Win. That's enough of a difference to fit definition of "It may not be important to you, it may not be worth the money to you, but it does exist." That’s only 50fps less than difference between the 30-06 and the 300 Win Mag. Do you plan to accuse anyone who shoots a 300 Win Mag of having a "severe case of PII (Preoccupation w/ Inconsequential Increments)"?

A more apt comparison would really be short action cartridge to short action cartridge. Comparing a 308 to a 300 WSM, the WSM gets about 400 fps more. Is that a Sufficiently Consequential Increment?

Even though you don't own one, the 270 and 300 WSMs are popular cartridges and brass isn't going to disappear anytime soon.

Short action rifles are lighter and handle better than long action rifles. It's a real advantage for **some** types of hunting, not so much for others. If you appreciate the short action concept, the WSMs are the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Click to expand...

"Handling" is more a function of familiarity with your firearm than length/weight/balance. The only time I could imagine a long barrel being a problem is dismounting a vehichle quickly ..... a non-issue for me, when hunting.

As for the sliced bread analogy, it would be apt if they were charging you $5.00 a loaf for the presliced stuff, and you bought it anyhow. ...... those of us that bake our own have no problems operating a bread knife, either.
Click to expand...
Clearly you are not among those who appreciate the short action concept. As I said, it's not going to appeal to you then.
 
The question still stands: Anybody know how to form this brass out of a more commonly available case?
Click to expand...

All the WSM cases were designed off of the .404 Jeffery. You would be hard pressed to find cheaper brass than buying the Winchester WSM cases. Last time I checked .404 brass wasn't very common, plus I don't know of any other commercial cases off the top of my head that share the .404 parent.

If you were able to find a good deal on 7mm, .300 or .325 WSM brass then you could form from that. IIRC the .270 WSM shoulder is a little farther forward so you would be fireforming all the brass. So I'd probably use the .300 or .325 case so I could create a better false shoulder for head space. You might have to turn the necks as well going down from these cases.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top