264 win mag or 257 Roberts
- Thread starter PDW292
- Start date
The 6.5 C should be a great choice.What I wanted to suggest about the original question:Consider percentages.
I am going to make some rash seat of the pants statements about ranges.They are for visualization purposes only.If you don't agree with them,fine,change them.The number does not matter.
Suppose the 257 R is a 300 yd clean kill cartridge on a deer.Suppose the .264 stretches that to as far as the shooter can gage wind,range,mirage,etc.Call it 600 yds.
What percentage of real world deer hunting shots will be between 300 and 600 yds?What percentage will be 300 yds or less?
The 264 has advantage on the over 300 yd shots.
At 200 yds,a more common hunting shot,the 257 shooter has been practicing with a mild rifle.It is easy to shoot well.Bang,thud,dead deer.
At 200 yds,if a magnum shooter keeps his eyes open,Bang,Whap!Dead deer.
Now,go dress it and cut it up.You will get more good table meat with the 257.
IMHO,there is a value in the 90% shot rifle.Sometimes,you may have to get closer or pass the shot.If you carry the 10% specialized rifle,it still does not guarantee shot placement at 600 yds,but its always heavier,messes up more meat,kicks harder,makes more noise,and burns bbls faster.
A long time ago,I bought an old round,40's Ford sedan looking 63 Volvo 544 for $400.I drove it 13 years before I gave it away,still running.It got 30 mpg on the road,was dependable,would break any speed limit,etc.The 257 Roberts is kind of like that old Volvo.
I am going to make some rash seat of the pants statements about ranges.They are for visualization purposes only.If you don't agree with them,fine,change them.The number does not matter.
Suppose the 257 R is a 300 yd clean kill cartridge on a deer.Suppose the .264 stretches that to as far as the shooter can gage wind,range,mirage,etc.Call it 600 yds.
What percentage of real world deer hunting shots will be between 300 and 600 yds?What percentage will be 300 yds or less?
The 264 has advantage on the over 300 yd shots.
At 200 yds,a more common hunting shot,the 257 shooter has been practicing with a mild rifle.It is easy to shoot well.Bang,thud,dead deer.
At 200 yds,if a magnum shooter keeps his eyes open,Bang,Whap!Dead deer.
Now,go dress it and cut it up.You will get more good table meat with the 257.
IMHO,there is a value in the 90% shot rifle.Sometimes,you may have to get closer or pass the shot.If you carry the 10% specialized rifle,it still does not guarantee shot placement at 600 yds,but its always heavier,messes up more meat,kicks harder,makes more noise,and burns bbls faster.
A long time ago,I bought an old round,40's Ford sedan looking 63 Volvo 544 for $400.I drove it 13 years before I gave it away,still running.It got 30 mpg on the road,was dependable,would break any speed limit,etc.The 257 Roberts is kind of like that old Volvo.
Clifford L. Hughes
New member
PDW292:
When I researched the ballistics through the Ohler ballistics computer program for my M-70 264, I found that the the 270 Winchester's ballistics and the 264Winchester magnum's ballistics almost identical and that the 270 used less powder. The advantage that the 264 is it superior ballistis coefficient bullets resulting in better long range performance. However, the 257 is a power house in a small package, a little less powerful than the 270 Winchester. The 257 is under rated and is a fine deer caliber.. On the other hand, the 264 is more powerful than the 257 Roberts. As far as I know, Remington is the only supplier of .264 ammo.
Semper Fi.
Gunnery sergeant
Clifford L. Hughes
USMC Retired
When I researched the ballistics through the Ohler ballistics computer program for my M-70 264, I found that the the 270 Winchester's ballistics and the 264Winchester magnum's ballistics almost identical and that the 270 used less powder. The advantage that the 264 is it superior ballistis coefficient bullets resulting in better long range performance. However, the 257 is a power house in a small package, a little less powerful than the 270 Winchester. The 257 is under rated and is a fine deer caliber.. On the other hand, the 264 is more powerful than the 257 Roberts. As far as I know, Remington is the only supplier of .264 ammo.
Semper Fi.
Gunnery sergeant
Clifford L. Hughes
USMC Retired
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Mike Irwin
Staff
Every 7mm Magnum I've ever worked with has had far better base accuracy than the two .264 Mags I've worked with.
As far as burning the barrel out on a .264, no, if you download it some you won't toast the barrel nearly as quickly, if it all. That's a known.
But, if you do that, then you're not really getting the Magnum in the .264 Magnum.
And, if you start downloading it, you might as well go with a .25-06 and save about 20 grains of powder and get very close to the same performance.
That said, I've often suspected that the accuracy issues I've seen with the .264 had a lot more to do with the build of the Winchester rifles that were available at the time.
I suspect that a heavier barrel, a somewhat heavier stock, and possibly a BOSS would do wonders for it.
As far as burning the barrel out on a .264, no, if you download it some you won't toast the barrel nearly as quickly, if it all. That's a known.
But, if you do that, then you're not really getting the Magnum in the .264 Magnum.
And, if you start downloading it, you might as well go with a .25-06 and save about 20 grains of powder and get very close to the same performance.
That said, I've often suspected that the accuracy issues I've seen with the .264 had a lot more to do with the build of the Winchester rifles that were available at the time.
I suspect that a heavier barrel, a somewhat heavier stock, and possibly a BOSS would do wonders for it.
mapsjanhere
New member
Just use the original, 7x57 Mauser. Scared Teddy Roosevelt enough to throw out the Krag, and proven on elephant.
WildBill45
New member
That was a stunt, which lost a few lives trying to repeat it! Elephant hunting back in the day of 'Karomojo' Bell was different, and he would not live long doing that stunt today!
Mike Irwin
Staff
"That was a stunt, which lost a few lives trying to repeat it! Elephant hunting back in the day of 'Karomojo' Bell was different, and he would not live long doing that stunt today!"
Actually, not a stunt at all.
Bell took hundreds of elephants with light-caliber rifles, 7mm Mauser (.275 Rigby), 6.5 Mannlicher, and possibly others.
Taking one or two elephants with such a rifle would be a stunt. Taking hundreds means a man who has the utmost confidence in his rifle and choice of ammunition, his understanding of elephant anatomy, and his shooting skills.
Bell's choice of rifles and ammo had one thing in common -- they all fired bullets that were very heavy and extremely long for their caliber. This gave them extremely high sectional density, the ability to penetrate to great depths without veering, and were constructed in such a manner that they were unlikely to rivet or even shatter before they could penetrate to the elephant's brain.
Actually, not a stunt at all.
Bell took hundreds of elephants with light-caliber rifles, 7mm Mauser (.275 Rigby), 6.5 Mannlicher, and possibly others.
Taking one or two elephants with such a rifle would be a stunt. Taking hundreds means a man who has the utmost confidence in his rifle and choice of ammunition, his understanding of elephant anatomy, and his shooting skills.
Bell's choice of rifles and ammo had one thing in common -- they all fired bullets that were very heavy and extremely long for their caliber. This gave them extremely high sectional density, the ability to penetrate to great depths without veering, and were constructed in such a manner that they were unlikely to rivet or even shatter before they could penetrate to the elephant's brain.
I have had no experience with the .257 Roberts, I would expect that it would be limited by the relatively small case.
On the other hand I long ago lost count of the number of rounds through my
.264 WM chambered Mod 70 Winchester. This rifle was used for hunting (whitetail) and in competition out to 600 meters.
Overall it has been a very satisfactory cartridge, due to the restrictions imposed be the bore size I have for the most part loaded reasonably ( 120 gr.Sierra @ 3200 fps. this is a mild load for a .264 WM)
And no a 25-06 will not compare to the .264WM. A 120 gr bullet at 3000 from my Tikka 25-06 is a border line over load for the 25-06.
TGR
On the other hand I long ago lost count of the number of rounds through my
.264 WM chambered Mod 70 Winchester. This rifle was used for hunting (whitetail) and in competition out to 600 meters.
Overall it has been a very satisfactory cartridge, due to the restrictions imposed be the bore size I have for the most part loaded reasonably ( 120 gr.Sierra @ 3200 fps. this is a mild load for a .264 WM)
And no a 25-06 will not compare to the .264WM. A 120 gr bullet at 3000 from my Tikka 25-06 is a border line over load for the 25-06.
TGR
handlerer2
New member
I don't consider the 57mm case a pipsqueak. It's 6mm more cartridge than any of the 51mm cases most consider adequate for almost any game on this continent.
I caught magnum fever in '75 and have been shooting and reloading for 7mag, 300&340 WBY ever since. I also reload for 6.5x55. I do appreciate the no nonsense ability of the mags to take large game w/o issues.
I would lean toward the 264mag, mostly cause I have never fired one, but I see no flies on the 257 Roberts either.
I caught magnum fever in '75 and have been shooting and reloading for 7mag, 300&340 WBY ever since. I also reload for 6.5x55. I do appreciate the no nonsense ability of the mags to take large game w/o issues.
I would lean toward the 264mag, mostly cause I have never fired one, but I see no flies on the 257 Roberts either.
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Mike Irwin
Staff
"And no a 25-06 will not compare to the .264WM. A 120 gr bullet at 3000 from my Tikka 25-06 is a border line over load for the 25-06."
Same bullet, same weight, going almost exactly the same velocity.
It makes no matter whether it's a 10% underload in the .264 or a 3% book overload (but still safe in YOUR particular rifle) in the .25-06.
Same bullet, same weight, going almost exactly the same velocity.
And yet, to do that in the .264, you're burning what, at least 15 more grains of powder?
And I'm not sure why you're maxing out at 3,000 fps in your .25-06.
I used to be able to coax just over 3,100 fps out of a friend's Remington loaded with 4831. No signs of pressure at all, and it wasn't all that far above book.
Same bullet, same weight, going almost exactly the same velocity.
It makes no matter whether it's a 10% underload in the .264 or a 3% book overload (but still safe in YOUR particular rifle) in the .25-06.
Same bullet, same weight, going almost exactly the same velocity.
And yet, to do that in the .264, you're burning what, at least 15 more grains of powder?
And I'm not sure why you're maxing out at 3,000 fps in your .25-06.
I used to be able to coax just over 3,100 fps out of a friend's Remington loaded with 4831. No signs of pressure at all, and it wasn't all that far above book.