old roper has got it. Take a look at the 25-06. It will do EVERYTHING the .257Wby will, but, at lower cost for most components, less recoil and muzzle blast and every bit as accurate. If you use factory ammo, the price difference will absolutely shock you. Well, there you go.
.257 Weatherby Magnum as an all around deer cartridge?
- Thread starter Smith and Wesson
- Start date
reynolds357
New member
Saying the .25-06 will do everything the WBY will do is like saying the .30-06 will doe everything the .300 Win mag will do. Most things, but not everything.
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Well I have built a lot of both calibers. (Been doing this for over 40 years now) I also own a chronograph and have done a LOT of testing.
The 257 Weatherby does go faster, but not much if barrel length is the same and pressure is the same. As a rule I have found the Weatherby to be about 40-70 FPS faster.
I have to agree with RifleTom. In the game field the 25-06 will do everything the Weatherby will do.
I cannot think of a single shot I’d need to take or a single animal I’d want to shoot that 70 FPS would make any difference at all.
So the 30-06 vs 300 mag comparison is not realistic. The 300 Weatherby. Mag will push a bullet 300-350 FPS faster than a 30-06 not just 40-70 FPS faster.
And if you have much real experience with killing big game you might argue with some validity that even the extra 300 FPS with a 180 grain bullet doesn't really kill game much better then the 30-06. It just reaches out a bit farther.
That should start a fight, but so many men post things about what they believe instead of what they have seen a few hundred times. I cannot count the game I have killed and seen killed in many states and on 2 continents 45 years now and I can't really say I can tell a lot of difference between a 30-06 and a 300 mag in the way they kill.
The 257 Weatherby does go faster, but not much if barrel length is the same and pressure is the same. As a rule I have found the Weatherby to be about 40-70 FPS faster.
I have to agree with RifleTom. In the game field the 25-06 will do everything the Weatherby will do.
I cannot think of a single shot I’d need to take or a single animal I’d want to shoot that 70 FPS would make any difference at all.
So the 30-06 vs 300 mag comparison is not realistic. The 300 Weatherby. Mag will push a bullet 300-350 FPS faster than a 30-06 not just 40-70 FPS faster.
And if you have much real experience with killing big game you might argue with some validity that even the extra 300 FPS with a 180 grain bullet doesn't really kill game much better then the 30-06. It just reaches out a bit farther.
That should start a fight, but so many men post things about what they believe instead of what they have seen a few hundred times. I cannot count the game I have killed and seen killed in many states and on 2 continents 45 years now and I can't really say I can tell a lot of difference between a 30-06 and a 300 mag in the way they kill.
Well, I've never talked to a guide yet who thought the 30-06 was a mistake. Talked to more than a few who shook their heads at featherweight magnum rifles and the hunters who couldn't shoot them well.
I used to check the Seattle PI classifieds every October, generally that was a great time to buy a "Like new 338 Win Mag, fired twice." rifle.
Jimro
"Saying the .25-06 will doe everything the WBY will do is like saying the .30-06 will doe everything the .300 Win mag will do. Most things, but not everything"
Correct, BUT, a 24" barrel 257 Wby doesn't have as much advantage over a 24" 25/06 as one would hope/expect. My 257 Vanguard has to be pushed hard to gain 150 fps over my custom barreled 25/06. The thing is: it DOES gain enough to add 100 yards to the point blank(no holdover) range.
If I had a do-over, I'd have waited until I could afford a 26" barreled Mk5 or rebarreled another rifle with an aftermarket 26".
Correct, BUT, a 24" barrel 257 Wby doesn't have as much advantage over a 24" 25/06 as one would hope/expect. My 257 Vanguard has to be pushed hard to gain 150 fps over my custom barreled 25/06. The thing is: it DOES gain enough to add 100 yards to the point blank(no holdover) range.
If I had a do-over, I'd have waited until I could afford a 26" barreled Mk5 or rebarreled another rifle with an aftermarket 26".
reynolds357
New member
Wyosmith, limiting the barrel length of the .257 does not make sense. 26 or 28 inch barrel is where it shines. The velocity gaps I am seeing are usually 250 to 300 fps. The WBY action and brass are designed to run high pressure. Not running the pressure up on a WBY is like driving a Corvette 55mph. Roy said on many occasions that he was confident in the Mark V action to hold to 100,000 psi, and we know he regularly ran it about 80,000 PSI. I am not even advocating loads that stout, just in line with the pressures WBY ran in the 70's in their factory loads.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
The trouble is that a lot of guys bristle at even 24" barrels on hunting guns and while I have no doubt that 70 or even 80k psi is safe for the gun, it is most certainly not very nice to the brass. 2 or 3 reloads and your primers will probably be falling out. Besides, apples to apples, if the WBY can do 70k, so can almost any other modern cartridge/action.
Peter M. Eick
New member
Thanks for an interesting discussion.
I am a 25/06 fan that keeps thinking about a 257W. I have seen them and shot them and several guys here in Texas I know love them but I have not taken the plunge.
I keep coming back to the lack of barrel length unless I pick up a MK V 257 instead of rebarrel my Ruger #1 out to 26 or even 28".
Keep up the discussion. It is fascinating to those considering the 257W.
I am a 25/06 fan that keeps thinking about a 257W. I have seen them and shot them and several guys here in Texas I know love them but I have not taken the plunge.
I keep coming back to the lack of barrel length unless I pick up a MK V 257 instead of rebarrel my Ruger #1 out to 26 or even 28".
Keep up the discussion. It is fascinating to those considering the 257W.
Looking back at the last 40 years I am going to make a close guess as to the number of 25-06 rifles I have made or rebarreled.
I'd put that number at about 150 of them.
In the same time frame I believe I have built or rebarreled about sixty 257 Weatherby magnum rifles.
I have barreled them both with barrels up to 28" and I did one 257 Weatherby in 1989 with a 30 inch barrel.
As a gunsmith with over 40 years of experience and a former CEO of a bullet manufacturer I have LOTS of experience.
So I am not guessing at the velocities I have clocked. I know for sure. I didn't chronograph loads from every rifle, but probably about half of them.
So when I speak of what you can get from these calibers I am talking from experience with about seventy-five 25-06s and about thirty 257 Weatherbys.
(Anyone else have that much real world experience in actual building rifles in these calibers and shooting over a chronograph?
If so I'd bet that they have found the EXACT same things I have.)
I am not trying to slap anyone here, but again I am pointing out that most of the posts we see on these subjects are speculation. Mine is not. Mine is actual experience.
This is not “Weatherby hate”. As I said in my 1st post the 257 Weatherby is just fine as a deer gun and works best with tough bullets. If you are an average deer hunter you probably will get about 30 years of barrel life. If you are in your 30s now that means one barrel will last you 80% of your life.
I like other cartridges more, but there is nothing wrong with the 257 Weatherby. These facts are simply facts. Not a moral judgment.
No offence is meant or offered here. But I am answering a man’s question truthfully and from a basis of real knowledge.
I'd put that number at about 150 of them.
In the same time frame I believe I have built or rebarreled about sixty 257 Weatherby magnum rifles.
I have barreled them both with barrels up to 28" and I did one 257 Weatherby in 1989 with a 30 inch barrel.
As a gunsmith with over 40 years of experience and a former CEO of a bullet manufacturer I have LOTS of experience.
So I am not guessing at the velocities I have clocked. I know for sure. I didn't chronograph loads from every rifle, but probably about half of them.
So when I speak of what you can get from these calibers I am talking from experience with about seventy-five 25-06s and about thirty 257 Weatherbys.
(Anyone else have that much real world experience in actual building rifles in these calibers and shooting over a chronograph?
If so I'd bet that they have found the EXACT same things I have.)
I am not trying to slap anyone here, but again I am pointing out that most of the posts we see on these subjects are speculation. Mine is not. Mine is actual experience.
This is not “Weatherby hate”. As I said in my 1st post the 257 Weatherby is just fine as a deer gun and works best with tough bullets. If you are an average deer hunter you probably will get about 30 years of barrel life. If you are in your 30s now that means one barrel will last you 80% of your life.
I like other cartridges more, but there is nothing wrong with the 257 Weatherby. These facts are simply facts. Not a moral judgment.
No offence is meant or offered here. But I am answering a man’s question truthfully and from a basis of real knowledge.
reynolds357
New member
Brian, you would be amazed how many times the Norma brass will stand being fired at that pressure. I usually get about 8 loadings then switch to Wolf primers for 3 more. Not only is the action of the WBY designed to run high pressure, Norma makes the brass to stand it as well. We must also keep in mind that the Vangard is not the Mark V. I dont trust the Vangard at 80K psi any more than I trust a 700 at that pressure. The Mark V action is just an entirely different creature.
Wyosmith, How about some loading data for this real world experience on these rifles you build.
I think most of that have chronograph or at least I can tell you everything about my loads.
I'm not trying to pick a fight with you don't think it too much to ask but I've been wrong before.
I think most of that have chronograph or at least I can tell you everything about my loads.
I'm not trying to pick a fight with you don't think it too much to ask but I've been wrong before.
Jimro, the Nosler partition is a "flat based " bullet. Post #11.
If it were me and I handload some various calibers and have for a few years Id go for .257 AI., not the magnum...cause by the time I tested so many different bullets Id have to switch barrels. And Poplar Bluff Mo.Walmart probably doesnt sell that ammo.
If it were me and I handload some various calibers and have for a few years Id go for .257 AI., not the magnum...cause by the time I tested so many different bullets Id have to switch barrels. And Poplar Bluff Mo.Walmart probably doesnt sell that ammo.
Wow OldRoper. That would take a pretty thick book.
Keep in mind that these loads have suspended 40 years and some of the powders are not even made anymore. One that did well in the 70s was H450.
My own 25-06 likes RL19 and H870 and AA3100 very well.
I finished a re-barrel on a Mk5 about 3 weeks ago. It had a 26” barrel on it made by Shilen and it also seemed to like a H870 as well as RL22. It did shoot best (most accurate) when it was backed down a bit however.
Since 1972 I have done loads with bullets from light to heavy, but most were done with 117 and 120 grain bullets.
Loads went from the bottom of the load scales to the top and some times would go over the top. Not all. Some rifles will not even allow listed max loads, but that is not a big surprise. Bore smoothness, rifling twist, rifling geometry, number of grooves, brand of bullet, and I sometimes think pollen count, moon phase and how you hold your mouth make a difference.
(Ok, maybe those last 3 don’t.
But if you do this kind of thing for a living for several decades you do see weird patterns in some rifles)
Magnum primers were used in most cases.
If I were to guess I'd say I have probably used about 10-12 different powders.
I have used barrels from Douglas, Shilen, Shaw, McGowen, Hart, Wilson, Pac-Nor, Adams and Bennet, Green Mountain, Santa Barbara and a few that were provided by the customers so I didn't know who made them.
No single load in my memory was all that noteworthy. Many were higher than manuals called for, but not by a great deal. All were kept to pressures that were safe in the rifle being tested and didn't flow brass or flatten primers excessively.
If you shoot either cartridge in a 24" barrel they do slow down more than if you shoot them in 28-30" barrels No big surprise there.
In both 25-06 and in 257 Weatherby mags the pressures were never over about 66,500 PSI (tested by White Labs when I was running Cast Performance)
What I am pointing out is that when barrel length and pressure were equal the Weatherby would beat the 25-06 by only by a small margin.
That's not a condemnation. The Weatherby dose well but it's NOT way out front like most folks think it is. In like barrel lengths with like pressures I have NEVER seen a 257 Weatherby outrun a 25-06 by more than 80 FPS. Most often it’s about 40-55 FPS
The idea of running 80,000 PSI is an eye opener. I have tested a LOT of brass in my life and I have never seen a brass case go over 71,000-73,000 that could be reloaded safely 2 times.
Keep in mind that these loads have suspended 40 years and some of the powders are not even made anymore. One that did well in the 70s was H450.
My own 25-06 likes RL19 and H870 and AA3100 very well.
I finished a re-barrel on a Mk5 about 3 weeks ago. It had a 26” barrel on it made by Shilen and it also seemed to like a H870 as well as RL22. It did shoot best (most accurate) when it was backed down a bit however.
Since 1972 I have done loads with bullets from light to heavy, but most were done with 117 and 120 grain bullets.
Loads went from the bottom of the load scales to the top and some times would go over the top. Not all. Some rifles will not even allow listed max loads, but that is not a big surprise. Bore smoothness, rifling twist, rifling geometry, number of grooves, brand of bullet, and I sometimes think pollen count, moon phase and how you hold your mouth make a difference.
(Ok, maybe those last 3 don’t.
But if you do this kind of thing for a living for several decades you do see weird patterns in some rifles) Magnum primers were used in most cases.
If I were to guess I'd say I have probably used about 10-12 different powders.
I have used barrels from Douglas, Shilen, Shaw, McGowen, Hart, Wilson, Pac-Nor, Adams and Bennet, Green Mountain, Santa Barbara and a few that were provided by the customers so I didn't know who made them.
No single load in my memory was all that noteworthy. Many were higher than manuals called for, but not by a great deal. All were kept to pressures that were safe in the rifle being tested and didn't flow brass or flatten primers excessively.
If you shoot either cartridge in a 24" barrel they do slow down more than if you shoot them in 28-30" barrels No big surprise there.
In both 25-06 and in 257 Weatherby mags the pressures were never over about 66,500 PSI (tested by White Labs when I was running Cast Performance)
What I am pointing out is that when barrel length and pressure were equal the Weatherby would beat the 25-06 by only by a small margin.
That's not a condemnation. The Weatherby dose well but it's NOT way out front like most folks think it is. In like barrel lengths with like pressures I have NEVER seen a 257 Weatherby outrun a 25-06 by more than 80 FPS. Most often it’s about 40-55 FPS
The idea of running 80,000 PSI is an eye opener. I have tested a LOT of brass in my life and I have never seen a brass case go over 71,000-73,000 that could be reloaded safely 2 times.
reynolds357
New member
WyoSmith, I find it odd that all the published data seems to have that same 300 fps gap that I commonly observe. Are all the load data publishers conspiring against the 06?
Good point and good question Reynolds, but there is a very good answer.
Look at the barrels lengths and the pressures in the manuals. Many manuals don't give pressure and few give you SAMMI max accepted specs. So I'll shed some light.
If you have a belted magnum bolt head within it's action at say 66,000PSI, and the action holds it just fine, that action can't tell the difference between a 300 mag at 66,000 and a 257 at 66,000. Thrust and pressure are the same and the action holds all the rearward thrust. The barrel holds the sideways pressure and the forward pressure.
But when the manuals are written the companies have to hold to SAMMI specs to retain their insurance.
25-06s often have 22 inch barrels and some of them are automatics, some are pumps and so on. Many were made on old Mausers which were not heat treated for maximum strength. The loads listed need to be safe and should be serviceable in all factory rifles made for the cartridge sine Remington made it a factory round in the 60s. But Remington didn't get crazy with pressure knowing that there were many old "wildcat" 25-06 rifles out here when they introduced the 25-06 as a factory round.
SAMMI max pressure for the 25-06 is often set at about 58,500. Most manuals test the 25-06 in 22” barrels and keep their pressure at or below 58,500
The 257 Weatherby Mag is tested in Mark 5 actions most times, and even if it's tested in a Universal receiver the SAMMI specs allow for 69,000.
Most loads don't go that hot, but they are within spec if they do.
This is fine because no factory rifle has ever been made in that caliber that was weaker than the 257 Weatherby Mag needs.
And I have never seen any manual test the 257 Weatherby in a barrel shorter than 26”
But in the same action (or any action strong enough to hold the same pressure of the Weatherby action and brass in combination, [ the brass is the “weak link” in the chain] and if loaded to the same pressure the 25-06 does very well. It’s very close to the same in performance. It won’t catch the Watherby, but it’s not a distant 2nd place either
Why?
Because both shells are overbore.
The 25-06 is not as overbore as the 257 Weatherby, but it still is a bit.
So when you get to the point that you are approaching that level of compressibility of hot gas you can build more pressure if you want, but you can’t get much more speed of gas going down the tube to any great degree. To do so increases pressure to a point the brass will flow too much or even rupture.
In other words you can use 10% more powder and still only get 2%-3% more velocity.
IF we make a new shell that will take 15% more powder we get only about 3-1/4% more speed and so on.
In doing this we do loose barrel life to erosion, which is why the 257 eats throats out pretty fast. This is not anything new and it’s a well known condition.
I have done a lot of business over the last 40 years on overbore rifles BECAUSE their barrels will erode faster than standard calibers. So in one way I like the Weatherby and other “super mags”. They help feed me.
That is whey I was so clear in both of my posts that when we compare the 25-06 and the 257 Weatherby head to head, with pressure and barrel length being equal, there is not much difference.
I am not publishing a manual. I am not recommending loads. I am not giving out any information about what is safe in which rifle and what’s not good to use in another one. I am simply comparing one cartridge to another one. When I build a rifle or even re-barrel a rifle I DO NOT take chances that I should not take. For example I will not re-barrel a M-94 Mauser to a short mag. I will re-barrel a rifle to a different caliber is that shell is within spec to work safely in the rifle.
So I say again ;
IF the barrel length and the pressure are the same (note…no mention of rifles here, just ballistic research concerning the 2 cartridges) the 2 shells are very close in real performance.
Look at the barrels lengths and the pressures in the manuals. Many manuals don't give pressure and few give you SAMMI max accepted specs. So I'll shed some light.
If you have a belted magnum bolt head within it's action at say 66,000PSI, and the action holds it just fine, that action can't tell the difference between a 300 mag at 66,000 and a 257 at 66,000. Thrust and pressure are the same and the action holds all the rearward thrust. The barrel holds the sideways pressure and the forward pressure.
But when the manuals are written the companies have to hold to SAMMI specs to retain their insurance.
25-06s often have 22 inch barrels and some of them are automatics, some are pumps and so on. Many were made on old Mausers which were not heat treated for maximum strength. The loads listed need to be safe and should be serviceable in all factory rifles made for the cartridge sine Remington made it a factory round in the 60s. But Remington didn't get crazy with pressure knowing that there were many old "wildcat" 25-06 rifles out here when they introduced the 25-06 as a factory round.
SAMMI max pressure for the 25-06 is often set at about 58,500. Most manuals test the 25-06 in 22” barrels and keep their pressure at or below 58,500
The 257 Weatherby Mag is tested in Mark 5 actions most times, and even if it's tested in a Universal receiver the SAMMI specs allow for 69,000.
Most loads don't go that hot, but they are within spec if they do.
This is fine because no factory rifle has ever been made in that caliber that was weaker than the 257 Weatherby Mag needs.
And I have never seen any manual test the 257 Weatherby in a barrel shorter than 26”
But in the same action (or any action strong enough to hold the same pressure of the Weatherby action and brass in combination, [ the brass is the “weak link” in the chain] and if loaded to the same pressure the 25-06 does very well. It’s very close to the same in performance. It won’t catch the Watherby, but it’s not a distant 2nd place either
Why?
Because both shells are overbore.
The 25-06 is not as overbore as the 257 Weatherby, but it still is a bit.
So when you get to the point that you are approaching that level of compressibility of hot gas you can build more pressure if you want, but you can’t get much more speed of gas going down the tube to any great degree. To do so increases pressure to a point the brass will flow too much or even rupture.
In other words you can use 10% more powder and still only get 2%-3% more velocity.
IF we make a new shell that will take 15% more powder we get only about 3-1/4% more speed and so on.
In doing this we do loose barrel life to erosion, which is why the 257 eats throats out pretty fast. This is not anything new and it’s a well known condition.
I have done a lot of business over the last 40 years on overbore rifles BECAUSE their barrels will erode faster than standard calibers. So in one way I like the Weatherby and other “super mags”. They help feed me.
That is whey I was so clear in both of my posts that when we compare the 25-06 and the 257 Weatherby head to head, with pressure and barrel length being equal, there is not much difference.
I am not publishing a manual. I am not recommending loads. I am not giving out any information about what is safe in which rifle and what’s not good to use in another one. I am simply comparing one cartridge to another one. When I build a rifle or even re-barrel a rifle I DO NOT take chances that I should not take. For example I will not re-barrel a M-94 Mauser to a short mag. I will re-barrel a rifle to a different caliber is that shell is within spec to work safely in the rifle.
So I say again ;
IF the barrel length and the pressure are the same (note…no mention of rifles here, just ballistic research concerning the 2 cartridges) the 2 shells are very close in real performance.
Hooligan1,
A 130gr flat based partition is not listed on the JBM catalogue of known bullets, nor is a flat based 130gr partition listed on nosler's website. If you provide me with a BC I'll run the calculations again using that number. However the numbers won't change significantly for the OP's stated purpose of killing deer from 50 to 300 yards as the MPBR will still be in excess of 300.
Mobuck,
I would really like to see your published velocities.
A 150 fps velocity advantage does not translate into a 100 yard extension of the MPBR.
257 WBY, 120gr Partition, 3300 fps, 385 yards mpbr. (load data from Hodgdon, IMR7828 capable of achieving this velocity).
25-06, 120gr Partition, 2,975, 350 yards mpbr. (load data from Hodgdon, H1000 and Retumbo capable of achieving this velocity).
The extra 325fps extends the max point blank range only 35 yards. In order to get an extra one hundred yards, a linear approximation would require the 257 Wby to launch the same bullet at close 4,000 fps. That just won't happen.
Jimro
A 130gr flat based partition is not listed on the JBM catalogue of known bullets, nor is a flat based 130gr partition listed on nosler's website. If you provide me with a BC I'll run the calculations again using that number. However the numbers won't change significantly for the OP's stated purpose of killing deer from 50 to 300 yards as the MPBR will still be in excess of 300.
Mobuck,
I would really like to see your published velocities.
A 150 fps velocity advantage does not translate into a 100 yard extension of the MPBR.
257 WBY, 120gr Partition, 3300 fps, 385 yards mpbr. (load data from Hodgdon, IMR7828 capable of achieving this velocity).
25-06, 120gr Partition, 2,975, 350 yards mpbr. (load data from Hodgdon, H1000 and Retumbo capable of achieving this velocity).
The extra 325fps extends the max point blank range only 35 yards. In order to get an extra one hundred yards, a linear approximation would require the 257 Wby to launch the same bullet at close 4,000 fps. That just won't happen.
Jimro
reynolds357
New member
You bring up a good point about the differences in barrel length and pressures in the manuals. The Hodgdon manual has the 06 and the WBY operating at the same pressure. The WBY does have a 2" longer tube.
I did not intend to say brass would last very long at 80k. I was advocating WBY pressures used in factory loads of the 70's era which were mid 70k. From my understanding, at the time they did not really know the pressure was that high and they backed it down a tad when they had more accurate pressure testing methods.
You have caused me to come up with another question. Would the .25-06 equal the WBY if it were reamed with the same amount of "freebore" the WBY has?
I did not intend to say brass would last very long at 80k. I was advocating WBY pressures used in factory loads of the 70's era which were mid 70k. From my understanding, at the time they did not really know the pressure was that high and they backed it down a tad when they had more accurate pressure testing methods.
You have caused me to come up with another question. Would the .25-06 equal the WBY if it were reamed with the same amount of "freebore" the WBY has?