Hello everyone. I have a custom pre 64' Winchester built by P.O Ackley in .257 Imp. I'm thinking of selling it to help fund a new Weatherby arroyo in .257 Wby mag. Anyone have any thought in this rifle or experience? I also thought about a Remington 700 CDL in .257 Wby. I like the quarter bores but want a bit more horsepower than the 257 Ackley/Roberts. For elk and the like. Thank you!
257 Wby VS. 257 Ackley, opinions on a new rifle
- Thread starter damo450
- Start date
For myself,I'd treasure that PO Ackley rifle as a part of shooting history.
But that's my values.
Difference in performance? Same bullet,a little gain in velocity.
Absolutely NO difference in the class of game its suitable for.
I have a 257 Ackley.If it was my only rifle,(for elk)I'd load Nosler Partitions,keep my shots under 250 yds,and pass up any shot that was not a clean rib shot broadside or equivalent.I'd have confidence the rifle would perform.
I'd do it EXACTLY the same with a .257 weatherby,because in part the 250 yds is about precise shot placement.
BUT,I have .30 cal rifles and up,better choices for elk.
My 257 AI is just the ticket for pronghorn and deer.I use 115 gr Ballistic Tips and H4831SC .
I am not trashing the 257 weatherby,but,IMO,the .257 AI is a more balanced cartridge.Cheaper,more available brass,Less "Pressure spikey" due to overbore,better throat life burning less powder....
If you want to pursue a bit more,or not fireform brass,there IS the 25-06.
But if you are really thinking in terms of elk,there is a 27-06 that has been killing elk very well for well over a half century.Its also known as the .270 Winchester.
But that's my values.
Difference in performance? Same bullet,a little gain in velocity.
Absolutely NO difference in the class of game its suitable for.
I have a 257 Ackley.If it was my only rifle,(for elk)I'd load Nosler Partitions,keep my shots under 250 yds,and pass up any shot that was not a clean rib shot broadside or equivalent.I'd have confidence the rifle would perform.
I'd do it EXACTLY the same with a .257 weatherby,because in part the 250 yds is about precise shot placement.
BUT,I have .30 cal rifles and up,better choices for elk.
My 257 AI is just the ticket for pronghorn and deer.I use 115 gr Ballistic Tips and H4831SC .
I am not trashing the 257 weatherby,but,IMO,the .257 AI is a more balanced cartridge.Cheaper,more available brass,Less "Pressure spikey" due to overbore,better throat life burning less powder....
If you want to pursue a bit more,or not fireform brass,there IS the 25-06.
But if you are really thinking in terms of elk,there is a 27-06 that has been killing elk very well for well over a half century.Its also known as the .270 Winchester.
Last edited:
math teacher
New member
+1 to HiBC. The 257 Weatherby has a case capacity about identical to the Remington 7mm Mag., another choice. Then there is the much underrated 280 Remington.
Pathfinder45
New member
Well, you came to the right place to get talked out of that plan. You have your quarter-bore. Keep that and consider getting another model 70 Winchester in a substantially different caliber. Probably a 30-'06. While I prefer 270 Winchester, it might be a little too close to what you already have. You could look for another pre-64 in 300 H&H, that somebody's heir had the insanity to part with, to be a companion to your current Winchester. Forget Weatherby; keep it all Winchester.
FrankenMauser
New member
While the P.O. Ackley link adds value and interest (at least for me), I'd still stick with the .257 AI just for what it is.
In my opinion, .257 Weatherby is not going to give you the added "horsepower" that you're looking for, for elk. More velocity? Yes. Better performance? That's a matter of perspective. (And my perspective says sees a 'no'.)
If you like long throats that compromise accuracy, more meat damage, more explodey impacts, and more disappointment, then .257 Wby is the cartridge for you.
But if you value quick, clean kills and a more forgiving and predictable cartridge, .257 AI is the winner.
If you want 'more horsepower', step up to a larger caliber.
(While I admit that I don't have hands-on experience with .257 AI, I do have experience with similar cartridges; and I do have experience with .257 Wby. The 'Magnum' quarter-bore is not all it's cracked up to be.)
---
Sidebar:
About two months ago, my father called me to talk about rebarreling an heirloom sporterized Springfield 1903A3 that was built/customized by his father (my grandfather) in the late '50s and is the single most sought-after firearm that my grandfather passed down. My father, for whatever reason, suddenly decided that .30-06 wasn't good enough any more, and he "needed" that rifle to be .30-06 AI.
After wading through the mess of arguments put forth, I realized what was going on and told him flat out: "Dad, you haven't shot a big game animal in six years, and you're bored. Since you can't fill tags, you're looking for excuses. You've gone through at least two new hunting rifles per year for eight years, now; and you've gotten sucked into 'magnumitis'. You need to go play with the grandkids' barbies until you realize what your motivations are..."
About three days later, he called me back: "[FrankenMauser], I did some thinking and you're at least mostly right. So... ...what if I went .338-06 instead?"
"Alright, dad. That's at least worth the trouble. I'll find you a deal on a good barrel blank..."
In my opinion, .257 Weatherby is not going to give you the added "horsepower" that you're looking for, for elk. More velocity? Yes. Better performance? That's a matter of perspective. (And my perspective says sees a 'no'.)
If you like long throats that compromise accuracy, more meat damage, more explodey impacts, and more disappointment, then .257 Wby is the cartridge for you.
But if you value quick, clean kills and a more forgiving and predictable cartridge, .257 AI is the winner.
If you want 'more horsepower', step up to a larger caliber.
(While I admit that I don't have hands-on experience with .257 AI, I do have experience with similar cartridges; and I do have experience with .257 Wby. The 'Magnum' quarter-bore is not all it's cracked up to be.)
---
Sidebar:
About two months ago, my father called me to talk about rebarreling an heirloom sporterized Springfield 1903A3 that was built/customized by his father (my grandfather) in the late '50s and is the single most sought-after firearm that my grandfather passed down. My father, for whatever reason, suddenly decided that .30-06 wasn't good enough any more, and he "needed" that rifle to be .30-06 AI.
After wading through the mess of arguments put forth, I realized what was going on and told him flat out: "Dad, you haven't shot a big game animal in six years, and you're bored. Since you can't fill tags, you're looking for excuses. You've gone through at least two new hunting rifles per year for eight years, now; and you've gotten sucked into 'magnumitis'. You need to go play with the grandkids' barbies until you realize what your motivations are..."
About three days later, he called me back: "[FrankenMauser], I did some thinking and you're at least mostly right. So... ...what if I went .338-06 instead?"
"Alright, dad. That's at least worth the trouble. I'll find you a deal on a good barrel blank..."
That 257 AI sounds like a dream gun to me. Fast, flat shooting, a little extra ooomph....great,
I know out west that the 257 Weatherby carries great mystic and many use it on elk. I would much rather see a person holding a 30 cal or 338 when going after elk.
The reason is that the 257 Weatherby would likely explode encountering a big bone where a slower and tougher 30/338 would drive through. Even if it broke and lost 30% weight, the remainder would out weigh a std 257 bullet!
For a pure elk rifle, since you have the 257 AI, a 338 Federal or 30'06 would be nice.
I know out west that the 257 Weatherby carries great mystic and many use it on elk. I would much rather see a person holding a 30 cal or 338 when going after elk.
The reason is that the 257 Weatherby would likely explode encountering a big bone where a slower and tougher 30/338 would drive through. Even if it broke and lost 30% weight, the remainder would out weigh a std 257 bullet!
For a pure elk rifle, since you have the 257 AI, a 338 Federal or 30'06 would be nice.
As a cartridge I would take the 257 Weatherby because there is very good factory loaded ammo, including the Accubond load. Accubonds and TSX bullets are good performers.
The only thing about this situation is the "pre64 winchester PO Ackley built" part. If it was any other rifle I say drop it in a heartbeat and get the Arroyo.
The only thing about this situation is the "pre64 winchester PO Ackley built" part. If it was any other rifle I say drop it in a heartbeat and get the Arroyo.
FrankenMauser
New member
He wants to keep that barrel.
And he won't go to .35 caliber, because he's already swimming in .30 caliber and .33 caliber components.
Living Co every so often see Ackley build rifle. I would think value of that rifle would be in the action and haven't heard of anyone collection them.
I like the Ackley's have 4 of them also build 257 Wby. I have no idea what velocity your getting or what bullets your using but that 257Wby with 120gr @ 3436fps was pretty nice.
If your thinking about selling it, not much attachment to that rifle then you should sell it get what you want.
I like the Ackley's have 4 of them also build 257 Wby. I have no idea what velocity your getting or what bullets your using but that 257Wby with 120gr @ 3436fps was pretty nice.
If your thinking about selling it, not much attachment to that rifle then you should sell it get what you want.
Not a fan of the 25's, but if I had a custom pre-64 in any caliber it'd stay with me. If you need more punch shooting the same bullets faster isn't going to make one bit of difference. Time to move up to a bigger caliber to achieve what you want to do. That applies to any caliber, not just the 25's.
The words "Ackley Improved" on the end of a cartridge name are accurately translated to mean more powder in hopes of getting more speed.
More speed is not always an improvement. In fact, in most cases, I have found it to bring its own set of problems. Super speed rifles NEED very tough bullets and that means expensive bullets.
But with that said, if I wanted to have a super speed 25 cal rifle I would go with the 257 Watherby Mag just because it's easier to get the brass.
As a side note, I am a full time gunsmith with 52 years of experience and I have made quite a few of 257 Weatherby Mag rifles and a lot of 25-06 Rifles. I also own and have owned chronographs for about 35 years now, so my statements here are fact, not opinion.
When shooting 25-06 in 26" barrels and running the same pressure as the Weatherby, I have not found anything in several decades to make me believe that the A.I. or the Weatherby is worth the effort. Both beat the standard 25-06, but by so little as to amaze me and also the customers.
In my experience, I have not been able to get 75 FPS more from the 257 mag than I can from the 25-06 consistently, if I run the same pressure in the same length barrels. I was shocked to find that with 3 different loads shooting 100 grain bullets that a 25-06 I made for an old friend B.E. outran his factory 257 Weatherby mag by a small amount.
With more powder does for you is----- cost more.
More for the powder, more for the brass, the same for the bullets and more for barrels, which get eroded in the throats pretty fast.
The 25-06 is not exactly a wimp and is not easy on barrels and the AI and Weatherby are worse.
None of this matters at all if you LIKE the Weatherby or the AI.
The real objective for most of these rifles is to enjoy them. If you like the caliber, use it. "I want, therefore I need" is a far better reason to own a rifle then trying to justify some mathematical reason to convince ourselves (and everyone that we can get to listen)
This is supposed to be fun above all else.
More speed is not always an improvement. In fact, in most cases, I have found it to bring its own set of problems. Super speed rifles NEED very tough bullets and that means expensive bullets.
But with that said, if I wanted to have a super speed 25 cal rifle I would go with the 257 Watherby Mag just because it's easier to get the brass.
As a side note, I am a full time gunsmith with 52 years of experience and I have made quite a few of 257 Weatherby Mag rifles and a lot of 25-06 Rifles. I also own and have owned chronographs for about 35 years now, so my statements here are fact, not opinion.
When shooting 25-06 in 26" barrels and running the same pressure as the Weatherby, I have not found anything in several decades to make me believe that the A.I. or the Weatherby is worth the effort. Both beat the standard 25-06, but by so little as to amaze me and also the customers.
In my experience, I have not been able to get 75 FPS more from the 257 mag than I can from the 25-06 consistently, if I run the same pressure in the same length barrels. I was shocked to find that with 3 different loads shooting 100 grain bullets that a 25-06 I made for an old friend B.E. outran his factory 257 Weatherby mag by a small amount.
With more powder does for you is----- cost more.
More for the powder, more for the brass, the same for the bullets and more for barrels, which get eroded in the throats pretty fast.
The 25-06 is not exactly a wimp and is not easy on barrels and the AI and Weatherby are worse.
None of this matters at all if you LIKE the Weatherby or the AI.
The real objective for most of these rifles is to enjoy them. If you like the caliber, use it. "I want, therefore I need" is a far better reason to own a rifle then trying to justify some mathematical reason to convince ourselves (and everyone that we can get to listen)
This is supposed to be fun above all else.
Agreed,Wyo,particularly on preferences.
I have never owned a 25-06 or a Weatherby. Fireforming AI cartridges is OK great fun shooting.It uses components and its rounds through the bore.
IF we assume the AI Guy (including me) pushes the limits a bit,how many times do you want to load the brass? I go till my "lot" shows a few split necks.Then I retire it.
I built 2 of the 257 AI's.Mine,and a friends.We hunted and shot together.With 23 in bbls,the first 8 lbs of powder(which I won't identify) was burned up launching 100 gr Sierra Boat Tails right at 3400 fps.Later I was getting 3150 with 115 gr Ballistic Tips.
(Oehler 33)No,those loads aren't in the book. I got a little older,a bit wiser,and decided it was probably best to back off BEFORE I did not get away with it.
I stil get 3050 (CED Chonograph)with the 115.And,of course,pressures are high.Primer pockets stay tight.They stayed tight with my older hot loads.I admit part ,or nearly all,of the increased performance of the AI is about the AI loader pouring imprudent amounts of powder in the case and operating at pressures that ,for any non-AI cartridge is a bad idea!!.(To be clear,they are an equally bad idea in an AI. )
I'm saying the "performance" of an AI is less about the case capacity and more about the AI enthusiast loading to pressures in the 63,000 psi or more zone.
For practical performance,the 25-06 would be a good choice.
Myself,great big cartridges with little bitty bores are prone to very sudden events. More overbore requires more margin of safety.
I have never owned a 25-06 or a Weatherby. Fireforming AI cartridges is OK great fun shooting.It uses components and its rounds through the bore.
IF we assume the AI Guy (including me) pushes the limits a bit,how many times do you want to load the brass? I go till my "lot" shows a few split necks.Then I retire it.
I built 2 of the 257 AI's.Mine,and a friends.We hunted and shot together.With 23 in bbls,the first 8 lbs of powder(which I won't identify) was burned up launching 100 gr Sierra Boat Tails right at 3400 fps.Later I was getting 3150 with 115 gr Ballistic Tips.
(Oehler 33)No,those loads aren't in the book. I got a little older,a bit wiser,and decided it was probably best to back off BEFORE I did not get away with it.
I stil get 3050 (CED Chonograph)with the 115.And,of course,pressures are high.Primer pockets stay tight.They stayed tight with my older hot loads.I admit part ,or nearly all,of the increased performance of the AI is about the AI loader pouring imprudent amounts of powder in the case and operating at pressures that ,for any non-AI cartridge is a bad idea!!.(To be clear,they are an equally bad idea in an AI. )
I'm saying the "performance" of an AI is less about the case capacity and more about the AI enthusiast loading to pressures in the 63,000 psi or more zone.
For practical performance,the 25-06 would be a good choice.
Myself,great big cartridges with little bitty bores are prone to very sudden events. More overbore requires more margin of safety.