250 AI savage 99

[F. Guffey]

The .308 in my example, if it was average, would probably be around -0.004" in diameter relative to the cartridge drawing dimensions, which are maximums. A maximum case would be a jam fit in a minimum .30-06 chamber before the bolt closed. My expectation is the the case headspaced its rim against the extractor hook. I know Hatcher reported an experiment in which he cut a .30-06 chamber 0.050" forward of normal in order to see the effects, by which time the extractor hook would likely stop the case shoulder from meeting the chamber shoulder and become the stop that held the case for firing pin impact.

Average: That gets into the part of life that is not fair, I measure. I have never found a 308 W case that was less than .012" larger than the 30/06 chamber at the same point when measured from the case head.

Ackley said: When I hear reloaders claim "Hatcher said" I think they are repeating stories they have heard from other reloaders that heard the same story. I have alienated more than a few reoladers by simply disagreeing with what they thought they heard.

Hatcher had 'SITUATION 1' SITUTION 2' and 'SITUATION 3', I suggested to 03 experts someone handed Hatcher the wrong rifle or not all 03s were made alike. I also suggested it was never necessary to check head space on the 03 with a head space gage. I check clearance on the 03 with a feeler gage, the 03 was made without Springfield having never seen the 98 Mauser. The 98 has a third safety lug, the Springfield 03 has a third lug, I am told that is a coincidence Point? I use the third lug when measuring clearance between the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head and chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face.

Back to Hatcher's wildcat, he used the M1917 with the large Mauser type claw. If I did not alienate the reloaders in the beginning I managed to alienate the rest when I suggested a reloader could determine if the case could jump the extractor. The third lug on the M1917 was the root on the bolt handle, similar to the small ring Chilean Mauser; the Chilean small ring Mauser was the only small ring Mauser with the safety feature.

I have fired 8MM57 ammo in an 8MM/06 chamber When 8MM57 ammo is fired in an 8MM/06 chamber there is .127" clearance, that is .077" more clearance that the story of Hatcher. After firing the 8MM57 ammo in the long chamber I ejected cases with just a hint of a neck, and then there was the miricle the shoulder on the 8mm57 case did not move it was erased and became part of the case body and the new shoulder formed when fired meaning most of the neck disappeared and became part of the shoulder. And I always ask: Is it stretch and or flow or both?

F. Guffey

 

[F. Guffey]

I am a case former, I form first and then fire, the cases I fired and then eject became once fired cases when I pulled the trigger.

I have no problem forming 30/06 cases to 308W, for me it is a convenient way to off set the length of the chamber. And then there is that thing as in what to do with thick necks. When going from 30/06 to 6MM Remington the hole in the neck (where the bullet goes) just about disappears, for case formers that is not a problem, I have reamer dies, my favorite reamer die is the 243 W reamer die. I do not believe many reloaders are going to purchased a reamer die because the die and reamer are expensive, $200.00.

Back many years ago Lee made Target Model die sets, the die set came complete with a reamer and neck sizing die without a sizing die.

F. Guffey

 

[F. Guffey]

A builder of bench type rifles called about a complaint he received from one of his new owners. He said the new owner complained about loose necks on a very accurate 308 W bull barrel build.

In all of his years of building he has never had a complaint, so, I suggested he sold one of his rifles to an Internet reloader that had to have a tight neck.

I made a shop call with a box of dies, we dug through a few thousand cases and settled on 30/06 LC National Match because he had thousands of them. I formed the 30/06 cases to 308 W and did nothing to the necks, When finished the clearance between the neck and chamber was .002". I cautioned him not to change cases and or lots.

F. Guffey

 

[F. Guffey]

,if i understand correctly,, the case head spaces on the neck angle like most rimless cases,,,so if i expand the neck and then neck size down to the leading edge of the shoulder,,so the action just closes,, i can get a close fit that way when i fire form and not get a false shoulder,,,the head space will stay tight when i fire the case,,ie. once fired brass,,,i think i would rather have the case say 250 on the head verses 308,,lol,,but i kinda think i have a handle on what direction i am going

It is very unlikely I would use commercial 30/06 or 308 W cases. My military cases have an arsenal stamp and year on the case head, that works until I have a 30/06 chamber that could be considered trashy. I have one chamber that is .016" longer from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face than a minimum length/full length sized case. For the gage oriented reloader that would be .011" longer than a go-gage chamber. When forming cases fr that chamber I use 280 Remington cases, the 280 Remington case is .051" longer than the 30/06 case from the shoulder to the case head, I could ask "How can I miss?". I use a feeler gage to set up the 30/06 die.

And then there is that part where the number one answer is 'false shoulder'.
I started by using the false shoulder when forming cases for the 30 Gibbs, problem when necking up etc., and then forming and firing the case shortened .045", I understands that means nothing to a reloader but the neck on the 30 Gibbs is .127" long. Back to the part where I am the fan of bullet hold, I want all the bullet hold I can get, in my opinion .127" is short for a 308" diameter bullet so I start with longer cases and to answer the other question about the head stamp; there is no way a reloader can chamber a 30 Gibbs in a 30/06 chamber.

Head stamps; R-P made cylinder brass for wildcatters, the R-P case was a straight wall case that was 2.650" long with a 35 Whelen head stamp.

F. Guffey

 

[ocharry]

HiBC,,,so just run the expander ball into the neck?? no neck sizing?? just the ball to make sure the size is right and the neck is round,,,i think that is what you are saying,,does new brass have a tight mouth or neck?? the expander ball will move the diameter?? just like normal

i looked at graffs web sight,,they have a flat base 120gr bullet,,,that is the one i will buy,,,if i understand what we are doing here,,,,it is to keep the bullet in the case neck long enough for the shoulder to form,,,the bullet will help support the neck and keep it straight while the forming is going on,,,and this is all happening in a blink....the 120 flat base has a straight cylinder wall unlike the boat tail bullets that taper back,,,,so the straight wall acts like an arbor,,,the longer the better,,,,in the barrel and in the neck at the same time during forming??

Mr. Guffey,,,i guess what i should have said was ,,, when i neck size the expanded neck down to size and leave a ring,,,that will be a false shoulder to fire form the case to,,,the "false shoulder" is just a stop so you know there is no room left and when fired the case has no where to go but expand and fit the new chamber

sorry for all the questions,,,but for me i have to know and understand what is going on,,,i dont like running around half cocked,,,the ,,"oh i just stuck it in there and poof it happened" dont work for me,,,lol,,,to analytical i guess,,but i dont like doing things twice,,,and in this case there might not be a second chance,,,i do love a challenge,,,this is one for me,,,i will be the first in line tell you i dont know what i am doing ,,BUT with all the help you guys are offering i think i can get this done,,,i think i understand what we are "shooting" for,,,and how i am going to get there

ocharry

 

[HiBC]

A lot of folks load bottle neck virgin brass with no sizing .I prefer running the expander ball through just to make the hole round.Best to not use the bullet to straighten neck dings.
Your AI dies are not going to contact the case body much anyway.You do not want to bump back anything,IMO.
After fireforming,you may want to check length and case mouth squareness(eyeball). A light cut with a trimmer for squareness is good.

This is really not a big deal. Ackley intended for factory loads to be fireformed.
If you make the equivalent of factory loads,you should be fine.
On your 120 gr bullets...What I would have to do is buy bullets and try them.Sometimes I have bought bullets and said "Now that's not going to work!"
My Ackley fireforming has been straightforward and trouble free.I have done mine in Mausers and mostly in 257 Roberts AI and 30-06 AI.
I'm not sure about Cartridge Overall length in your 99 magazine..
If you have to seat bullets deep enough to make mag length,sometimes you run out of bullet cylindrical diameter and you start pushing the ogive into the neck.Thats no good.Those 120 flat bases would work in my 257. I cant say for sure about your .250.
The cases I saw that were gas crushed were brought to me with a "What does this?" question. It was a 22-250 AI. He was using some light boat tail short bullet. It was also a fairly light fire form load. It was a tight twist barrel,maybe 1 in 7. I gave him some 69 gr bullets and told him to load a mid range vs light load. It solved his problem. A very short boat tail bullet can be driven clear of the neck before a case being fireformed obturates. Some gas gets trapped between the case and the chamber.The case looks gas crushed.
I think if you can fit them in the magazine,120's will be fine. A flat base 100 would be fine.
I use up partial boxes of odd bullets.Once I scored old boxes of 117 gr round nose bullets.with lots of dust on the boxes.Cheap. The shop owner had them a long time.
Fireforming AI's is just fun range time. Do pay attention,but its really not a big deal.

 

[ocharry]

hmmm,,,never thought about to long and mag length,,,good point,,they also have 100gr and 115gr flat base,,,100gr will work,,,thought about getting a couple different bullets anyway,,just to see what it likes best

ok,,,i think i can get this done,,,prolly run to graffs tomorrow and get some stuff and get this underway.....would like to get this sorted out before deer season,,,i just might try it out and get some blood on it ,,lol

thx again guys,,,as it always is for me a pleasure to listen and learn

ocharry