.25 acp with trailboss

I've been knocking myself out trying to find out the actual case volume of a .25. Volume of trail boss is double that of bullseye. A grain of trail boss appears to be 1/4 cc. I honestly don't know if that case has enough room to fit that behind a bullet.

Whatever you do you can probably only measure charges by trickling on a scale. I've also worked on finding a measure that would probably be able to handle a charge that small, and it seems that it could be a problem.

Best of luck with it.
 
Thanks. Was it quickload that you used? There are too many donuts to count in 0.83gr of trailboss, I am afraid. I plan to dribble at first and to make a powder measure out of a 22lr casing when I find the load.

I surely will pay attention to squids, as always with any other calibers.

I heard I lot of people said 25 acp not worthy of hand loading. I wonder they knew the going price of the caliber. North of 30 cents a round at the moment. I'm doing it!
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It may have been Quickload. ;)
Oh, and the estimated 100% density charge was 0.87 gr, for the record.

Though I do find the desire to use Trailboss to be a bit unusual, and possibly problematic, you'll get no complaints from me. I've done some ridiculous things at the reloading bench (.22 WMR with H4198 and a 53 gr TSX, for example ;)).
Experiments are fun.
Saving money is good.
Reloading is (generally) enjoyable.
And tapping a squib out of a barrel isn't all that bad (unless you fail to notice it!).
 
"are you serious?"

My thoughts , also.
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Hey guys, its a free country, I could some along and nit pick how you do other things to.

Lighten up, give it a rest, he likes it, is having fun, good questions, and if that is not what this is all about I am some kind of horn swaggered toad.
 
Look, I wasnt meaning anything at all beyond asking if he was really intending to do it. I've spent HOURS looking up and trying to pass on information. He said he's serious, I took it seriously and helped.
 
Don't worry gentlemen. Apparently a lot people have chickened out on loading this one. It is a fair question to ask. It is just getting a bit strange when asked repeatedly.

Appreciate for all your help. I had some ideas before I posted. Just need some assurance, inputs and comments to make sure I haven't missed anything.

Will report back as it goes along.

-TL
 
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.
My experiments are with only (3) 25acp designs and only took a couple hours:
Colt 1908 [$175 in 2003, $300 in 2014, and $250 in 2016]
Beretta 950 [$175 in 2003]
Vesta Ruby [$50 in 2000]

Looking at them:
1) They all have plenty of case support and chamber wall thickness.
2) The Beretta has no extractor.
3) The Vesta has poor firing pin to firing pin hole fit.

The Findings:
1) Working up to failure with the Beretta and Colt the same thing happens, the extractor groove in the brass grows to the point of the brass being jammed in the chamber. The 25acp case design has this major flaw, not as bad as a 10mm case, but still bad. I reached this point with both pistols with 4.3 gr Bullseye and 50 gr FMJ. Max published is 1.3 gr. ->230% extra powder. At 6.0 gr Power Pistol, the recoil is painful.

2) The Vesta fails at a much lower point in a work up with pierced primers. The thicker magnum or rifle primers cannot be substituted, as the firing pin spring is too wimpy to set them off. I reached this point at 2.7 gr -> 108% extra powder.
 
I haven't chickened out, I don't own one. But I never figured that I would load 380. 380 has been a pain in the keister. After that, I probably wouldn't load 25. I'm not as interested in solving problems as some people are.

I tore up my shoulder and haven't changed my own oil in thirty years.
 
Clark, do you load the ammo that you blow guns up with?

It would be very interesting to find out what powders you use to do that.

NOT ASKING FOR LOAD DATA. Only wondering what you use, powder and bullet. I have a few guesses already about the process.
 
I keep wondering if a super velocity .22 lr, .22 wmr, a pair of standard.22 lr, or other cartridge could be torn down and the charge used in the .25.

Obviously not feasible with the cost of tearing down the rounds at a dime apiece and higher.
 
I have a Mauser 1910. Got a packaged deal on die set and cast bullets. Don't intend to hot rod but to have rounds that micmic the original ballistics.

The challenge for loading this caliber is its small size, I believe. My dubious powder choice doesn't help. I don't have much problem handling tiny objects. I do that daily for my livings, things way smaller than this and with high precision.

So the potential problem is the bulky powder. No chance for double charge, but need to watch out for squibs and compression.

-TL
 
Hodgdons shows 1.1 grains of titegroup. Thats over 6300 loads per pound of powder. :D

I know I know thats not the answer you were looking for.

Let us know how this works out.
 
Trailboss is the WRONG powder to use.

Get a pound of Bullseye or 231.

Trailboss is a "light, fluffy" powder designed to be very BULKY for its weight. A "one pound" size can of Trailboss has 12oz of powder.

The intent was to fill up the powder space of black powder cases, like .38 special through .45Colt, where due to their origin they have more space than needed for smokeless powder loads, Using a bulky powder eliminates the risk of a double charge.

You do NOT have that kind of space in a .25acp case. Trailboss is the WRONG powder, not because of its burn rate, but because of its bulk, per grain weight.

I believe that you could fill the .25 case with Trailboss and while it would go "bang" velocity would be very low and unlikely to cycle a semi auto.
 
Okay, I checked. A 25acp case will hold 0.9-1.0 grains of Trailboss without compression by a 50 grain RN bullet. Anyone have a ballistics program that can predict velocity from that pairing? Or with a 35 grain Speers Gold Dot?
 
I load .25acp frequently. You are dealing with very small charge amounts, which means .1 grains fluctuation can be 10% of the charge, so measuring and weighing is critical. Any deviation has a much greater affect when doing microsurgery.

Never used Trailboss, and have never seen any data. My guess is its way too bulky.

Why not use a powder with data available?

Bulleye is most commonly used followed by Red Dot. I've also used Unique and got my best groups and velocities with it. 35gr Gold Dots have given me, by far, the best accuracy,

I'm loading for a 1980's Raven P-25 with no issues.
 
Okay, I couldn't stand the suspense. I loaded up (3) 25ACP's today with 0.9 grains of Trailboss behind a 50 grain Magtech FMJ bullet (OAL=0.900). Shot them out of a Beretta 950B pistol over a chrono.

Wore a metal glove, gritted my teeth and.....:rolleyes:

It's a very soft shooting load. The 3 rounds chronyed at 660.1, 665.8, and 651.0 fps for an overall average of 659.0 fps ± 7.07sd.

Not sure why you'd want them that slow, but they do clear the barrel and are reasonably accurate...at least at 7 yards out of a 2 and 3/8ths inch barrel.
 
Thanks a lot for sharing your results! I also loaded some last night, but haven't had chance to shoot them yet.

50gr fmj at 660fps for 0.9gr of powder is not bad at all. The official muzzle velocity is 750fps. I think my load will work as I use cast bullets, which could go as much as 20% faster than jacketed bullets. The fullest charge I have is 1.0gr. With that I am sure it will get really close to 750fps.

The process of loading the rounds is not bad at all. Way better than what folks have been whining about. I may want buy a different powder for it in the future. Will see.

-TL
 
I loaded 25acp at one time and the idea about the 22lr casing is close. I soldered a 22lr casing to a #14 wire for my dipper. It actually took slightly more than one dip to make my load.
Can't remember the powder, but I think it was bullseye. Bullets were 50 grain round nose.
 
Okay, I couldn't stand the suspense. I loaded up (3) 25ACP's today with 0.9 grains of Trailboss behind a 50 grain Magtech FMJ bullet (OAL=0.900). Shot them out of a Beretta 950B pistol over a chrono.
Click to expand...

This is what I like, less speculation and conjecture.

Well done my friend.
 
Thanks jmorris. tangolima, it may be close, but I also chronyed 8 Winchester 25acp today and they averaged 813fps. The foot-lbs for the commercial load works out to 73 and the Trailboss loads were 48. The only thing I've ever chronyed lower was CCI Quiet 22lr (40 grain) at 30 ft-lbs. and 591fps.
 
Well, that's why .25 acp has been laughed at since that day it was born; it is a center fired cartridge weaker than rim fired.

I don't plan to hot rod it, so I would be quite happy if I get anything faster than 750fps. I will need another powder if I want to drive it any faster.

BTW, was the load able to cycle your pistol? Thanks.

-TL
 
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