.25-20 Winchester from 7.62 Nagant Brass

I think headspace consideration in a revolver is.different from other designs. Misfire is more of a concern than brass life. The pressure is too low for the brass to cling on the chamber. In fact the brass can't cling on the chamber. The donut on the ratchet can take that sort of beating. Instead the brass is supposed to slide back and "lean" on the frame.

The spent brass come out of the cylinder with a gentle pull of the extractor star. No primary extraction is needed. However it is different story if the same round is fired in a lever action rifle. More mechanical advantage is needed to extract the spent brass. Hmm... How does it work?

-TL

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It is a bit of work to do the operation, however I did successfully make .25-20 Winchester brass from the PPU 7.62 x 38 mm Nagant revolver brass. Only a few rounds fired in my 1892 Winchester due to the lack of small pistol primers for now.
 
Well, my “scam detector” didn’t go off on reloadingbrass.com and I sent them money for some rare brass (.41 Special). I’m still awaiting my tracking number but I’m guessing that money’s gone. Seemed legit; I got invoicing and everything. A William Hitt answered a query from me, but my suspicion he is this “preacher” as he signed his name with “may God bless you more.”

https://m.facebook.com/pastorbill2

Seems to be associated with this “ministry” in Rancho Cucamonga (SoCal). Email also begins with hittpink — > William Hitt. Would love to know who else got scammed by this guy on other reloading sites.
 
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I think headspace consideration in a revolver is.different from other designs. Misfire is more of a concern than brass life. The pressure is too low for the brass to cling on the chamber. In fact the brass can't cling on the chamber. The donut on the ratchet can take that sort of beating. Instead the brass is supposed to slide back and "lean" on the frame.

Headspace consideration is the same in a revolver as anything else. For rimmed rounds, that the space the case rim fits into.

Reliable ignition is ALWAYS more important than case life. I can't think of any firearm design where reloading case life is a high priority, and can think of more than a few where it is of no concern at all. Reliable ignition, on the other hand is always a top priority.

Case pressure in revolver (and all other) rounds is not "too low for the brass to cling to the chamber and seal. That should be obvious, we don't get gas coming BACK at us

What makes the revolver unique is the fact that the cases are not held tightly in the chamber by a boltface /breechblock. The case is literally, free to move backward, until stopped by the recoil shield. And that is what happens. Primer ignites, powder burns, and as the pressure builds, (pushing in all directions) the case, being lighter than the bullet and having less inertia gets pushed back until stopped by the recoil shield. At that point the pressure can only push the case walls out so they seal against the chamber wall as the bullet begins moving forward.

As the bullet heads downrange, and the pressure drops, the natural elasticity of the brass results in it springing back away from the chamber walls so it will extract freely.

The spent brass come out of the cylinder with a gentle pull of the extractor star. No primary extraction is needed. However it is different story if the same round is fired in a lever action rifle. More mechanical advantage is needed to extract the spent brass. Hmm... How does it work?

Its not really a different story when a revolver round is fired in a lever action rifle. The case is still pushed back by the initial pressure build up, but since the bolt face is right up against it, there's no where for it to go, so it doesn't move, it just transfers the force to the boltface. The other difference is the slightly longer time it takes the bullet to clear the muzzle and vent the system pressure. Everything else is the same.

take a good look at the typical Marlin/Winchester type lever actions. They don't have "powerful primary extraction". Nothing like the camming action of a turnbolt rifle. Its not needed, even for the rifle rounds you find in those kinds of actions, and more than enough for lower pressure pistol rounds. Yes, the lever linkage does amplify the amount of force pulling the fired case out, but its also a necessity in order to operate the (relatively) "heavy" bolt mechanism.

Every system has a pressure limit within which it operates properly and when exceeded cases stick in the chamber, because they have been pressed HARD against the chamber walls and that extra "pressure hammer" reduces the effectiveness of the brass springing back. Run too much pressure in a lever gun, and despite its more "powerful" extraction cases WILL stick.

I know its frustrating when the brass you want isn't currently in the major supply chain outlets, and can't be easily made from brass that is available.

There is something you can do, but its time consuming costs a bit, and there's no guarantee of success. If you have the time, travel abit. Get away from larger towns and check out the small ones, especially the ones close to "hunting country", and visit the small "mom & pop" type stores, Gun shops (of course) but also Hardware stores, grocery/sundries stores even old gas stations. Places that were running before the Internet, and aren't chain franchises, etc..

Sometimes you can find some old, and odd ammo that's been sitting on one of their shelves for decades. If you get lucky you might find something you can use, and if you get REALLY lucky, they'll sell it to you for the price marked on the box!

My personal best score in that direction was I once found a 25rnd box of Winchester 12 ga 00 buck, in an old hardware store, which they happily sold me for the $4.95 price written on the box! :D

You MIGHT find a box of .25-20 at such a place. Wouldn't be cost effective to go looking just for that, but if something takes you near those kinds of places, taking the time to look might just pay off, though you do have to "kiss a LOT of frogs before you find a prince" :D
 
I will keep those stores in mind as I travel more during the warmer weather. Thank you for the suggestion. I was able to speak with the folks at Starline, and they have no idea when .32-20 brass will be run. So they are not a source for now. The Nagant project is coming around as I gain experience in the conversion. Since I'm using 3F/ cast with the brass, pressure is staying very low. The rilfe seems to like it OK, however the bore does have some erosion from the 107 years of service, so a liner is probaby coming in the not to distant future.
 
I was able to speak with the folks at Starline, and they have no idea when .32-20 brass will be run.

Back in normal times (pre-panicdemic) the way Starline worked with stuff they made but were currently not making (and out of) was that they would take orders (back orders) and when they had enough they would do a production run of that case. Not certain if they still work that way today, but it is a sensible thing. Until they have enough valid orders to do a production run, they have no idea WHEN they will be doing one.

When you have PAYING customers ordering enough to justify a production run, you do one. Call and ask them what the "trigger amount" is. 5,000 cases? 10,000?
'
If you are well heeled, (or can find investors) it might be worth considering ordering enough so Starline does a run.

Downside? LARGE initial cost.
Upside? A) you get brass, as much as you want, possibly for the rest of your life, and B) YOU will have all the new brass there is, (until/unless Starline does another run) so any and everyone wanting new brass in that rare caliber will need to get it from YOU, and I think you'd get your money back out of what you don't keep for personal use.
 
My guess it will be a couple of years before Starline ramps up, and that’s a maybe. I think this is the third reloading supply shortage I’ve been thru and it seems longer than others and isn’t even close to being over. I tried one time to use the 32-20 to make 25-20 with no success, I maybe quit a little to quick but I hated wasting the brass. Right now there are a couple of listings on Gunbroker for 25-20, one is asking $50 and the other at $75. Personally I would go for it
 
My guess it will be a couple of years before Starline ramps up, and that’s a maybe.

You're probably right, under regular conditions, nobody is going to ramp up and produce the low demand stuff until they have the spare capacity to do so, and that won't happen until the catch up to the demand for the high demand stuff.

However, I think you missed my point about that. If you just tell them you'll buy a quantity of .25-20 (or whatever), they'll think, "cool, when we get around to making that again, there's a customer waiting..."

BUT, if you ORDER it, show them the money, let them sniff it, see its real and possibly even pay them in advance, that another matter. The got cash, they WILL put production of your order on their priority list, because you PAID them to do that. (If the chunk of cash is big enough, to make it profitable, of course)

And, if they're even a little smart, once they do set up production to make what you paid for, they'll keep running it long enough to produce some inventory for future demand before changing the machinery over to something else. Potential win, win, for the company and shooters of that caliber brass.

If those guys who call me from Jamacia ever get around to sending me the multiple millions of dollars they say I've won, I'm sending some of that to Starline and a few thousand shooters around the country will bless my name (along with Starline shareholders!) :D:rolleyes:

Could happen, right?? I've given up on the Nigerian princes, they've never delivered....:rolleyes:
 
Could be wrong but I think when they say no back orders they just don't even acknowledge or keep track of your request. Seems like I went thru this before, in fact I think it was about 32-20. I also asked them if it was so easy to convert them to 25-20 why don't they do it when times were slow. They were polite but said no way, had to at least ask.
 
Starline is backed up or production is lower than normal which ever. They are not looking at producing the .32-20 case in the foreseeable future. They don't make the .25-20 WCF anyway. There are case differences in the .25-20 and .32-20 as well by SAAMI. the .25 is .349 dia at the base of the case and the .32 is .354, also the .32 is .881 to the bottle neck and the .25 is .857, so you have to work the brass there a bit. I have also written to PPU to see if they may have plans to make any of the cartridges for the 1892, their stuff is very good and I would have no hesitation buying from them. If they make the 7.62 Nagant revolver round I think there is more demand for the .218, 25-20, .32-20, and .38-40s.
 
Thanks anyway, but I had already checked them out couple months ago and it was nothing but red flags so I just figured they were not legit.
 
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