25-06 accuracy questions

Clark, is your "new system" of driving to the target, the system that Uncle Nick is referring to in the articles?

No, those articles are on 1) optimum charge weight [ocw]. Instead I am backed off 2 grains from the threshold of extractor groove growth, and 2) Berger VLD bullets, I have not shot any VLD bullets in years.

Last year, helping my brother sight in his rifle to 300 yards, lead to much unhappiness over the need for lunch breaks.

Here is a pic of me helping me sight him in to 500 yards this year. I got him and MY 5 rifles sighted in out to 500 yards fast. He shot two more deer yesterday, drew 8 tags this year.

Mostly I came up with the driving only, no walking, to deal with my brother. I race bikes and eat low carbs. He watches TV from an easy chair while eating even more.

Notice the mud on my tires from driving to the targets.
 

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"Driving to my targets."
I kinda like that.

Yeah that makes it nice. I went to my club range after work and got there just in time for the start of the silhouette match on the range we CAN drive down. All I needed to do was check zero on a couple of rifles at 200yds.

The other range is BR only with nice concrete benches and is walk only. Sheesh by the time I had my targets up I had to wait 15 or more minutes to settle down and still shot cruddy.
Went back a week later to the other range and cloverleaf groups.

We do practice doing the walking and shooting thing but even at that our areas are pretty flat and we usually make first round hits really close to where we aim. These two rifles though aren't for packing around, they are for sitting and reaching out to touch something.

I have found that most of the favored powders for long barrels work just as well for shorter ones. You might not get the top end velocity, but you usually do get the accuracy without pressure issues. IMO- the IMR4831 should do you a fine job with the shorter barrel. While it is on the slower side of some, it's still faster than plenty others especially for that diameter bore.
 
25-06 accuracy

Have been having some success with getting this rifle dialed in. Have shot several nice 5 shot groups. Once in awhile, I get an oddball flyer. I know it could be me, but I think if it were me, it would happen more often. I've moved back to the 200 yd distance. Maybe its more noticeable there. Good 3/4" to 7/8" as a rule, with a flyer that could be 1-1/4" to 1-1/2" off. I've been reading on this forum and in some manuals about case capacity and/or case weight affecting the case pressure. I just weighed my cases and I get close to a 3 gr. difference in a few cases. The cases were all trimmed to the same length. I think this might be a lot. I have not marked and shot to see which ones are producing the flyers yet. Is this enough to make a difference in case volume? How close should I be keeping them? In all your opinions, what are the most consistent cases (brand names)?
 
What cases are you using? I've always used Rem or Win for my use. I don't weigh cases and consistent groups just under 1/2" when I have a good day.

If you're using 75 to 87 gr bullets do not seat them to lands as these are short bullets and you won't have much bullet in the case.
 
RedSkyFarm, forgive, I made that post and never went back. Three rifles, I built a 257 Wheatherby, 25/06 and a 257 Roberts. The problem with the 257 Weatherby with a 20 inch barrel; it has trouble keeping up with the 257 Roberts with a 26 inch barrel; meaning unless the 257 Weatherby had a 26 inch barrel I could not take advantage of the larger than necessary case capacity.

I do not have a 257 Roberts reamer, I have a 257 Roberts Ackely improved chamber reamer. I do not have a 25/06 chamber reamer, I have a 25/06 Ackley Improved chamber reamer. I have access to 250 Reamers and own 62.

My regret is I never purchased the 7mm57 Ackley Improved reamer.

F. Guffey
 
RedSkyFarm,

The difference in pressure from seating in the lands and seating back from them was pointed out by Dr. Lloyd Brownell in the 1960's to be due to a pressure build-up delay in early part of the powder burn that occurs when the case neck lets go of the bullet and gas can briefly escape around the bullet and directly into the bore. That continues until the bullet moves forward into contact with the bore. So you get a pressure drop as you seat deeper and make that bypass gas allowance greater. The difference is commonly between 10-20%, depending on cartridge, powder and bullet combination. If you continue seating still deeper, beyond a certain point pressure starts going back up again because of the powder space in the case being reduced by the presence of the bullet base.

seatingdepthvpressure_zps326eb859.gif


Note that touching the lands does not make pressure jump as compared to being a few thousandths of an inch back from the lands. It's the size of the gap around the bullet that determines how much gas bypass occurs. As a result, the difference is really about how much that gap grows as you seat the bullet deeper. I've seen a pressure trace where a 20% difference was gone when the bullet was 0.030" off the lands with a short tangent ogive bullet. The pressure trace above was for a 30 cal round nose bullet, which has a very gradual taper along the sides of the ogive, so it that had to get a quarter of an inch off the lands before the pressure minimum was reaches.

RSI6PPCthroatjam2_zps7abe8a9a.gif


The pressure being raised is the peak pressure, which typically occurs when the bullet is an inch or two into the bore. The muzzle pressure isn't affected as much. Adjusting the loads to get matching velocity only tells you that you've matched the average pressure for all bullet positions in the bore, and not that you've matched peak pressures, which can still be a good deal different. So a chronograph won't "fix" the problem. It might bring the pressure down half way, but don't count on more than that. The usual rule of thumb is to back the load down 10% when you move from off the lands to touching. For common tangent ogive bullet shapes you want to start reducing when you get closer than 0.030" from the lands, watching for pressure signs.
 
The difference in pressure from seating in the lands and seating back from them was pointed out by Dr. Lloyd Brownell in the 1960's

I am the only one that has or takes the liberty to disagree with Mr. Brownell.

The bullet setting at the lands at a dead stop makes it difficult for the bullet to get moving, that is the reason I am the fan of the running start, I want my bullets to have that jump. I want my bullet past the rifling before the bullet knows the rifling is there.

I know, there are so many reloaders that are soo confused because if the spike is caused by the bullet setting still while stuffed into the rifling they will have to figure out time and distance.

F. Guffey
 
I was accused of being involved in some risky stuff. I suggested members on a forum to 'think about it'. That did not work so I called Hornady to explain my plan.

F. Guffey
 
You are in good company. The difference between static and kinetic coefficient of friction has been suggested in the past to explain a pressure jump due to bullet contact with the lands. QuickLOAD uses an increase in start pressure to explain pressure from being loaded into the lands.

The flies in the ointment of that explanation are two. First, the jump is missing when you measure peak pressure vs jump to the lands, as Brownell did. This is the reason he came up with the gas bypass hypothesis. Instead of a jump, peak pressure made that gradual transition to the higher peak value shown in the plot, as the bullet was placed nearer the lands. It's a measurement, not an opinion, so it's a little hard to disagree with it having happened.

The other thing to consider is that the military has used angled mirrors over the muzzle of a rifle to get continuous laser distance measurements to the tip of a chambered bullet, and in bigger guns used a Doppler radar to get continuous motion readings, and they found the ignition even motion isn't smooth. That is, there are hesitations and a sort of stuttering of the bullet motion as it goes through working its way from the case to throat to bore. So even with a runup there doesn't seem to be a simple continuous transition into the rifling lands. Instead, the bullet slows and the chamber stretches and a compression wave gets into the steel and all manner of other influences stick there heads into the stew, affecting pressure and velocity.

I'm not saying there is nothing to the friction issue. Using moly and hBN coated bullets with same powder charges as we used for bare jackets, we see a velocity drop, indicating they slid into the rifling with less resistance and built less initial pressure. But we still have to explain the peak pressure measurements Brownell got before we can claim to know what's going on, and the increased friction isn't doing it so far.

Then there is momentum. That's something that does increase with bullet runup. So, how much reaction force is overcome by stopping that momentum? You can get a sense of this from QuickLOAD's velocity vs. distance traveled. QuickLOAD treats acceleration as continuous. In a 0.030" jump to the lands a 30 caliber bullet gets up to about 50 fps in a typical load. If the throat stops a 168 grain bullet going 50 fps in 0.02" of engraving into the lands, the force is 560 lbs. That's enough to get and keep a bullet moving in a bore. However, half that is not. So that predicts a pressure jump should occur between .030 and .015 off the lands when the bullet would stall. We don't see that. Maybe it explains the slope steepening beyond about 0.030", though.

Brownell's actual data points are in the study for all to see. Perhaps it can be argued they were spaced too far apart and the experiment should be redone using a Pressure Trace or a commercial pressure test barrel. Nothing wrong with getting more data to study if someone has the time for it.
 
And then there was the rational behind me being accused/involved in some risky stuff. I said I was forgiven for mistakes because of time, I have always felt time was a factor.

Hornady agreed, but they had a caution/warning meaning after I formed my wildcat cases there was more than a big chance the load I was using with my heavy bullets would be on or beyond maximum loads. They suggested I reduce the load by 6 grains or more.

After the cases were formed I lost the time factor.

F. Guffey
 
Are you aware that you say you disagree with Brownell and then you claimed the exact same thing that Brownell stated.
Brownell said that seated against the lands and seating back produced a difference.
Then you claim there is a difference too. That is not disagreement with Brownell.
Do you ever read what you post? You claim other reloaders are confused and then you make posts that reveal you are the one that is confused.

From Guffey's post

Quote:
The difference in pressure from seating in the lands and seating back from them was pointed out by Dr. Lloyd Brownell in the 1960's



I am the only one that has or takes the liberty to disagree with Mr. Brownell.

The bullet setting at the lands at a dead stop makes it difficult for the bullet to get moving, that is the reason I am the fan of the running start, I want my bullets to have that jump. I want my bullet past the rifling before the bullet knows the rifling is there.

I know, there are so many reloaders that are soo confused because if the spike is caused by the bullet setting still while stuffed into the rifling they will have to figure out time and distance.

F. Guffey
 
The bullet setting at the lands at a dead stop makes it difficult for the bullet to get moving, that is the reason I am the fan of the running start,

Ireload2, What part do you not understand? As long as you have been making your rounds through the different forums it seems to me you should have learned something. I have no infatuation with 'the spike' but it seems you have an overwhelming, uncontrollable urge to show off so for all of the members of this forum why don't you tell them everything you know about the spike.

The first time a reloader got his hands on a drawing with a spike he started making stuff up, reloaders being as impressionable as they are took the illustration as gospel.

F. Guffey
 
Well done.

If you get 1.5 inches with a hunting rifle that is plenty good enough.

Makes us feel better to get 1/2 inch.

So far I have yet to find an animal with a target on its side.

Aim for behind the shoulder shot and anywhere with 8 inch is a dead one.

When I was hunting the best my 7mm would do was 1.5 inches.

It was consistent, but 1.5 inches.

Never missed an animal that I did my end (and only one that I screwed it up out at 600 yards, good shot but did not trust my gun and aimed too high, I split the skin on the back to the bone but did not get close enough to shock it.)
 
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