25-06 accuracy questions

R

RedSkyFarm

New member
Hi all. I have an Interarms/Whitworth 25-06 with a 22" barrel. I am having trouble finding a good load combo. Out of a three shot group, the first and third are within 3/8-1/2" of each other and the second is approx. an inch off. The paper is showing carbon (fouling) on every shot. Doesn't seem to matter if its a cold barrel, clean or dirty. I am using IMR4350 with Hornady 75, 87 and 120 gr. bullets. The cases are neck sized and all from the same lot. I have been seating the bullets as close to the lands as possible. Three main questions: 1) Will the seating depth (or lack of) cause pressure variations due to more empty volume in the case? Will this cause the bullet to release before optimum pressure is developed? 2) It has been recommended to me to use less powder or a faster burning powder to get rid of the fouling. 3) Is there a bullet weight/brand that is best for a 25-06 that I should be using? In general, what was this caliber designed for? Thanks for any suggestions.
 
I have had better luck with slower powders imr 7828 and re25 with my 25-06s. but I also have longer barrels on those as well. What twist is your barrel that will help dictate which wieght bullet to try and also is your barrel light or heavy wieght and also are you letting the barrel cool between shots? Also my groups got smaller when I switched to LR mag primers in the 25-06.
 
I use 4895 and 75 gr Vmax in 257 Roberts Ackley, which is almost a 25-06.

It has shot 5 shots into 0.45" at 100 meters, but that has got to be:
a low wind day
clean bore
concentric ammo
practice dry firing with high power scope, until cross hair stay on bull
good barrel
bullet touches lands
free floating barrel
shooting bench cannot be shaky
 
Sounds like you're expecting one hole groups you don't need. Consistent groups is what's important. Not the size of one or two groups.
"...approx. an inch off..." Is far more likely to be you than the rifle or load. Doesn't take much to send a bullet off by an inch. Can be as simple as the trigger going when you're heart is in mid beat.
Interarms was the importer. It's a CZ made Mauser. A pretty decent one at that, but it's a hunting rifle, not a benchrest rifle. Basically it's a deer sized game rifle. A consistent inch to even 3" groups at 100 is good. Check to be sure the assorted stock screws are tight though.
Best to work up the load for each bullet weight separately too.
Hornady 75's are varmint bullets. They don't show an 87 or a 120 in .25 calibre, but Sierra's 87 is also a varmint bullet. Their 120 is a deer sized game bullet.
"...carbon (fouling) on every shot..." Is lead, not carbon. An SP can blast a bit of lead onto a hunk of paper. Nothing to worry about though.
 
I have loaded a lot of rounds for our 25-06 over the years. What I found out early on was that it liked the slower powders like from IMR-4831 over to around RL-22. Yes they are all close if you look to a powder chart but the burn rates are significantly different enough that you have to work up each powder.

I did have a load which used the 100gr Sierra that I got when I called the Sierra tech line that did use IMR-4350. This was the exception as those bullets never shot with anything else but drove into one little clover leaf cluster with that powder.

I will also add that I usually never seat anything up to the lands, especially for hunting. I feed everything from the magazine and usually if it will touch the lands it won't fit in the mag well. Not only that I found that with some bullets and powder combinations the pressure would get a bit spikey and I threw shots in a similar manner to what your describing along with having velocity jumps.

I found a load in the older Hornady manual listing RL-22 with their 117gr bullet. I used 3.250" as an OAL, base to tip, and with that load I have needed nothing else in regard to accuracy or performance. I switched to the 115gr Partition and worked that load up with everything else the same and have been happy with the performance for nearly 30yrs now. It has taken a very wide range of critters from fox squirrels to feral hogs with not so much as a hiccup. Accuracy wise, this load is easily capable of consistently shooting around or less than 3/4 at 200yds, me on the other hand, well IF I can remain calm I can work together with it sometimes but not always. I will say that between myself, my close hunting and shooting bud, my daughter, and oldest grandson, we have all printed quite a few groups like that with this rifle and that load so I know it isn't a fluke.
 
I've used IMR4350 for over 38 years with excellent results. The .25-06 is picky on primers though. I've had the best luck with Federal or Winchester LR. Mine doesn't like Hornady and prefers Sierra or Nosler bullets.

IMR4831 is very close to IMR4350 and I could never see a difference. I now use RL19 as I can get a little more velocity with it.
 
Just what is the load you're shooting? I'm bothered by the statement that you're getting carbon on the target.

I'm guessing it's a bedding issue more then anything else.
 
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

In general, what was this caliber designed for?
Click to expand...
Medium size Big Game as I was told at the time of my purchasing.
I don't shoot the smaller bullet weights. My 25-06 shows its best accuracy with most jacketed 100 gr bullets and IMR 4831 not>H-4831. Oh I tinkered around with IMR 4350 also but 4831 is the propellant for best observed 25-06 accuracy.
In my hand-loading experiments and bench resting/s. I discovered my 25-06 had more than one high end accuracy sweet spot. 2 actually. The sweet spot I prefer and use is above most suggested Max Powder Charge writes.
Although I think your problem stems from reducing your cartridges free bore to -Zero- and maybe using too stout of a hand load for the purpose. I would suggest you try a hand load where its seated bullet is measured to typical suggested OAL. Most 25-06s show excellent accuracy and speed without the need to purposely eliminate its free bore. Very close to a 257 Weatherby reputation the 25-06 is. As its said: 25-06 Remington is a poor mans 257 Weatherby Mag. And I for one.
Believe it to be a bold but {true} quip by some other happy owner.
Well that's my thoughts on this thread sir.. Good luck in finding a solution RedSkyFarm.
 
I discovered my 25-06 had more than one high end accuracy sweet spot. 2 actually. The sweet spot I prefer and use is above most suggested Max Powder Charge writes.
Click to expand...

I have found this to be true in every cartridge I load. If you're lucky a sweet spot happens at or near max charge. The .25-06 is a cartridge that just seems to give it's best when loads are near max.

For my use I shoot a lot of the 87 gr to 90 gr bullets for groundhogs. Maybe that's why I've found IMR4350 to give the best accuracy. My second choice are the 100 gr bullets, a good all around bullet.

I also do not load bullets to touch the lands anymore. Found that just isn't necessary.

For the 75 gr bullets the slower burning powders don't give good accuracy. The 2 powders that worked well for me were IMR4064 and 760. After 2 seasons I gave up on the 75 gr bullet as I found it didn't work as well as the 87 gr past 300 yards.

IMR4350 shines with bullets 87 gr to 100 gr. Anything heavier and I'd want IMR4831 or H4831.
 
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"The paper is showing carbon (fouling) on every shot."

What "paper" are you talking about? You simply CAN"T blow carbon/powder fouling all the way to the target.

With a 22" barrel, you won't be getting the greatest advantage from the slower (4831 and slower) powders. I had a 22" 25/06 (InterArms MK10 btw) and traded it away within 6 months.
I currently have a 22" Savage 110 and a custom 24" barrel on a 110 action. There's a big diff in the velocities I get. Most of my handloads utilize an old lot of AA3100(4831 range)-around 3200 fps with 100 grain bullets in the 24". What I'm saying is: I don't think you'll see a big gain by going slower than 4350-just more muzzle blast/flame.
 
Red,

Also, when you say as close to the lands as possible" , what do you mean??

Most of the bullets from my Savage rifles like 0.015" off of the lands. But it's not the golden rule.

The Berger 140gr. hunting VLD, and the Nosler Accubond LR like it within 0.005" off of the lands.

If you can't get them to come in to your liking, then I would recommend selling the rifle to me... :D
 
One other consideration. You can't take the lighter bullets like the 75 gr to 90 gr and seat them out to the lands. You'll end up with not much bullet supported by the case neck which will cause erratic groups.

I gave up seating to the lands probably 15 years ago.
 
There are guys much more accurate than me that seat into the lands e.g. Bart Bobbitt.
There are guys much more accurate than me that don't seat into the lands.
There are guys much less accurate than me that seat into the lands.
There are guys much less accurate than me that don't seat into the lands.
There are guys about as accurate as me that seat into the lands.
There are guys about as accurate as me that don't seat into the lands.

Then there is me. I seat into the lands for target shooting. I do not seat into the lands for big game.
 
Sounds accurate (grin)

What do you do for little and medium size game? Sorry, I could have helped myself but did not want to.
 
I know its been awhile, but it has taken awhile to iron this rifle out. Just wanted to thank those that made suggestions and let you all know what worked. I ended up with IMR4831 (as suggested by more than one) as the most consistent powder. IMR4350 is very close. I got away from the Hornady's altogether am using the Sierra 90 HPBT #1615 and Barnes 100 gr T-TSX BT. Also went with the Fed primers (was using CCI's initially). Win LR produced the same results as the Fed's. Fed's are more available locally. Powder charges are in the middle. Found that (possibly because it is a 22" barrel) heavier (or lighter) charges didn't produce any positive results. I also went with recommended OAL on the seating depth. An additional step was to debur the flash hole. That did wonders. After all this, I am shooting 1/2" to 5/8" groups consistently! Not clover leafs but much better that the inconsistent 1" to 1-1/2" groups I started with. Definitely consistent enough to trust for hunting. Thanks to all with your suggestions.
 
Congratulations on getting it dialed in.

Writing in the 1995 Precision Shooting Reloading Guide, the late Dan Hackett told of a 40X rifle in 220 Swift that he couldn't make shoot. Mind you, this fellow was a benchrest shooter, so his idea of shooting well is a tighter group than most of us seek. His "inadequate" groups ranged from 3/8" to 5/8" as I recall. Then one day while he was loading several different makes of bullet, he accidentally turned the micrometer adjustment on his seater die the wrong way and wound up seating bullets 0.050" off the lands instead of 0.020" off the lands, as he then believed was best, same as many today believe touching the lands is always best, or that 0.015" off the lands is always best, or that 0.030" off the lands is always best. He didn't notice the error until he had 20 rounds seated. He considered pulling the bullets and doing them over, but decided instead just to shoot them for trigger practice. To his astonishment, they turned in two 0.250" groups and two genuine bugholes in the 1's (betweeen 0.100" and 0.002").

So, you never know what's best until you find it.

This article on seating depth variation may interest you.

This system for identifying good loads may also be of interest.
 
I built (5) rifles in September and sighted them in and hunted in October.

Two of them were 25-06.
Both were sighted in out to 500 yards and shot just fine.
My reduced load for hunting is 25-06 3.25" 115 gr Nos Bal tip moly 51.5 gr IMR4451 3185 fps chrono 26" barrel.

I shot ~ 100 rounds of 25-06, 50 rounds of 7mmRM, 50 rounds of 6mmBR, and 50 rounds of 308 out in the sagebrush by myself over the course of 2 weeks. My new system of always drive to the target is really speeding up the system.



I shot a mule buck with one of the 25-06 rifles. It was bang flop.
 

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Thanks for the info on the articles, Uncle Nick. Had I read them earlier, it may have sped up the process. I mentioned before, I am seating the bullet as recommended by Sierra. Once hunting season is over, I will do some more testing as the articles suggest. A question on changing the bullet seating depth. As you seat the bullet further toward the lands, would I need to add more powder to maintain the original pressure? Would changing the bullet seating depth change the optimal charge? Clark, is your "new system" of driving to the target, the system that Uncle Nick is referring to in the articles? F. Guffy, what powder would you suggest in a 22" barrel. It's interesting you mention that. I can't seem to find any load data on barrels of varying length. I see 26" as a rule and once in awhile, they will have a 24" barrel on their test rifle. Not sure I can afford a 26" barrel and certainly wouldn't want to carry it very far! Thanks for any info you can give. You all have been very helpful.
 
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