22s can be effective.

R

redhawk44p

New member
Here is a story I read the other day about the effectiveness of a 22.
Whats up with all these comments regarding where to shoot someone with a .22? The eye, the armpit, the ear, bouncing off heads, are you people actually convinced that the .22 is that much of an underpowered round?!?!?! ENOUGH WITH THE URBAN LEDGANDS! Granted a .22 is not a 9mm or .45.... but then a .45 is not a .50 cal! My uncle was shot in the forehead and killed by a friend playing with a cheap 3" barreled revolver from almost 80 feet away. A girl here in NM was just killed Friday after being hit in the back of the head from about 20 feet away. And a friend of mine from my USAF days was walking to his garage one morning and surprised two creeps who had broken in and were piling up tools at the door. One of them swang at him with a 2" pipe he used to prop a window open with, he ducked and blocked it with his left arm (it broke his ulna). He back peddaled two steps pulled his Beretta 21A from his coat pocket and double tapped a pair of Winchester Dyna-Points into the 6'-1" 205# dudes chest. One round went thru the sternum, shredded a ventricle, and lodged in a rib in his back. The second fractured (shattered) a rib, pierced his lung (along with fragments of rib) and exited his back, breaking the window of his car. He said the dude crumpled like a rag to the floor where he laid motionless for about two minutes just gurgling, till he went off to bad guy land. The second BG cowered on the floor behind his riding mower crying till the cops showed up. And lastly as an EMT-P for the last several years I can honestly say I've seen more deaths from .22's than .45's, mainly because people say "Aw it's only a .22 ...BANG!"
 
There is no question that a .22 CAN kill. The issue is whether it can RELIABLY stop an assailant.

If I shoot an assailant with a .22, he will probably get mad. He might stop (for physiological reasons), he might die, but odds are that he will either get mad and hurt me more, or he will say "oh, he's got a gun, maybe I should stop".

If I shoot an assailant with a .357SIG, he will probably drop. He might keep going, he might decide to behave differently, but odds are that he will stop attacking because he simply can't do anything else.
 
While I am sure everyone agrees that you CAN kill someone with a .22, I think the point here on TFL is that if you HAVE to shoot someone, you want them to stop. Immediately.

I would be interested to see the percentage of people shot with a .22 vs. the number that die, are incapacitated, and the number that walk away. It is possible to walk away from a hit with a .22. Very few walk away from a hit with any caliber larger then a 9mm.

In sum, it's really about how secure do you feel with a smaler round. Can a .22 kill someone? Certainly! Would I feel well armed against two of the previously described BG's with a .22. Hardly. I would rather have my G27.

The best caliber is the one you have with you. If it's a .22, so be it. Carry as big as you can.




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"Freedom is that instant between when someone tells you to do something and when you decide how to respond."
-Dr. Jeffrey Borenstein

"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter."
-Martin Luther King Jr.
 
As for the majority of gun-related deaths involving .22s, that's likely because they're the cheapest. Anything bigger tends to cost 2-10 times more, both for gun and ammo.
 
My point of a NAA mini 'ear gun' was that's where I'll stick it (or under the chin) if I ever need to use it.

Otherwise I believe I'll be running the other way (or I'll have settled it with a bigger gun).

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"All my ammo is factory ammo"
 
I hope none of us ever has to shoot anyone. There are times when the clothing we wear cannot conceal anything bigger than a 22. I have a Beretta 21A that is my go anywhere gun. Regardless of my attire the little sucker can find a place to hide. My Glock sub compact cannot. Any gun is better than no gun. 22s are cheap to practice with and as Chuck Taylor says go for the cranio-ocular shot.
 
My most frequently carried handgun is a 22. Small but effective. :)
 
There is also plenty of stories that have large angry people shot with large angry calibers and seemed uneffected.
Yada yada yada...
There is no Excaliber of Caliber. We all know this.

From the original post in this thread:
Forehead - Back of Head - Ventrical...

Its about SHOT PLACEMENT. Having a hefty caliber is not as important as shot placement - BUT. I have seen .22s and even 9MMs bounce and deflect off things like skulls, window panes (hit was at a high angle), bottles, etc... A heavier caliber increases the chances that the projectile will perform as advertised on the target.

Why is this an issue?
 
Bill Jordan of Border Patrol fame used to say
"I have heard many men speak with contempt of .22 caliber pistols, but never when one was pointed at them."
 
Shot placement is paramount, as one retired LEO said "When we gave up
our Walther PPs, we had fewer criminals shot in the head by a LEO.".
Now criminals get shot everywhere. Looks like marksmanship went down
the drain when our local police upgraded to 9mm.
 
If the object is to kill, then a .22 will do just fine, no matter if it takes a while or even days to die. If the object is to immediatly stop a crazed criminal on the drug of choice, then a lot more is desired.

Just a few months ago and not far from me, a gent tried to end an argument by shooting the other party with a .25. Other party objected to being shot and blew away first shooter with .45. Both died, one not fast enough to prevent the second death. Both one shot kills.

Placement plus velocity plus diameter plus weight = no guarentee but better insurance.

Sam...my favorite 9mm is the 9X32R
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hard Ball:
Bill Jordan of Border Patrol fame used to say
"I have heard many men speak with contempt of .22 caliber pistols, but never when one was pointed at them."[/quote]

Bill Jordan was also fond of S&W's little kit gun in 22WMR for self defense. He suggested a shot to the solar plexis to "knock the wind out of you" as the best stopper.



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Just one of the Good Guys
 
I read somewhere that more people are killed by .22's than other calibers. I don't know if that's true or not.

I talked to a few people, and they all say that .22's KILL. Just like any other gun with any other round.

The problem is, the guy bleeds to death. Between the time you shot him with a .22 and when he bleeds to death, he's charging at you with a knife and he will mess you up, and then bleed to death. That won't happen with a .44 or a .357.

That being said, I have a .22 rifle. At about 100 yards, open sights, I will put all 10 .22's in your left eye before you can get to me...

Anybody who doesn't believe that is more than welcome to stand 100 yards away from me and try.

I love .22's, and true be told, if there's a perp in my house, and all I had was a .22, I would be OK with using it on him.

A chinese man armed with a .22 and a cleaver, is a well armed man, at short and long distance...

Albert
 
Survivor Series XXII

Each week a member of the group is shot with a 22 LR in the chest. If he or she lives to the next week, they can stay in. The last
human swiss cheese standing gets the bucks.

Who is signing up for the show?
 
I don't think the point of the original post was to advocate the .22LR as primary carry. The point is that when faced with an ugly situation, the good guy used his .22 effectively to protect himself. End of story.

If we want to talk statistics, then what about looking at the number of crimes that were halted due to a good guy drawing a handgun, no shots fired. In such cases, I doubt the BG took a visual measurement of the barrel and decided not to attack because the caliber was larger than .22.

Firearms deter, NOT calibers. If you have to use one, AIM WELL, regardless of the round you're using.
 
My post did not advocate the use of a 22 as a primary weapon. The point that I was trying to make is that often the way we dress does not allow the use of a major caliber. A 22 can suffice to provide personal protection at these times. People often try to portray the 22 as a BB gun. I have been hunting with 22s for 40 years and I can testify to their effectiveness with proper marksmanship. Farmers regularly kill large cattle with a 22 pistol. They are not 100% stoppers but I have read reports of people walking away after being hit with 12 gauge 00.
 
I agree that a 22 CAN kill. I know I'd hate to be shot with one.

However, in the last three years, we've seen a BUNCH of small 32acp guns come onto the market. I believe that the 32 is now the smallest caliber anyone should carry, unless they have to have a 22 due to physical problems.
 
I found the issue of interest as my mother is armed with only a 5 1/2" Buckmark. She has eleven rounds available, plus two spare ten-round magazines. Having seen what .22LR does and does not do, I have to hope that she gets at least half of her shots into COM or head of an attacker before he closes in to a grappling distance...and even then there's no guarantees.

I would feel *much* better if she had a full-sized 7-8 shot .32acp but that isn't the case right now. She is getting training, eight lessons worth, in addition to what she already knows.

The trouble with .22 is that it cannot penetrate hard targets. A heavy belt buckle would deform and possibly even stop a .22 bullet...a .32 ball would be far more likely to penetrate. In my opinion, making jacketed flat point .22LR available would improve its effectiveness considerably.

The advantage of .22LR is the lack of flinch on the part of the shooter and quick follow-up shots. Since hitting moving targets fast is not certain, half-dozen shots with rimfires might connect at least once while one or two larger caliber shots in that same time might both miss.

I would feel much better if my mother had something better available to her (she does, a Glock 21 and a S&W66, but she can't handle guns of that size). I am shopping for a Colt Hammerless .32 and might consider a Walther PP once she has gone through more training. However, I do honestly believe that, on a scale of 1(unsafe) to 10(safe), she has improved by several points by just having a)a plan, b)a gun c)enough training to fire the first magazine in the right direction. Nutcases who'd ignore eleven shots aimed at them, even all misses, are relatively rare.


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Oleg "peacemonger" Volk

http://dd-b.net/RKBA

[This message has been edited by Oleg Volk (edited August 12, 2000).]
 
Originally posted by REast:
Here is a story I read the other day about the effectiveness of a 22.
I think your really talking about Stopping Power vs. Killing power. I personally think My 22Mag is an extremely underated round. And I've seen what they have done with the 22LR ammo and how power full some of the 22rounds have become. Some are boating they can go over 1600fps. My 22Mag supposedly reaches 1800-2100fps.
Click to expand...
 
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