22LR vs Centerfire Handgun Reloads

If you have the ability to recoup your lead that would make a difference. If someone has the ability to shoot on their own property they certainly have the ability to reclaim that lead at some point in time.

For me I assume the cost to shoot my 9mm / .38 Special reloads to be about $.06 each. $.03 for the primer and about $.015 for each the powder and the home cast bullet. Shooting 45 ACP raises those cost by about $.01 to $.02. It's not cheaper than bulk .22 LR but its cheaper than target grade .22 LR and much cheaper than center fire stuff.
 
Frank, I have to disagree. reloading means to load something once more. Brass that you have receives new components. Take bullets, powder, and primers that you have acquired and use purchased equipment to put the parts together.

Casting and salvage processes aren't part of the loading process. When you take the actual process of remaking ammo, it's great if you spend hundreds of hours and a thousand dollars or more in equipment so one part of that process becomes free you are seriously and dangerously stretching the simple truth about remanufacturing ammunition by adding a completely separate process to acquire materials.

one of the things that I would use to bolster that argument is just plain, simple, gap accounting processes. One page would add the already priced components per item together and get the actual price per round.

other pages would add up the actual costs of components such as primers and powder, including taxes or other extraneous costs.

The page for the bullets would be broken down into the cost of manufacturing, and nothing is free if you are making it except waste. Is there a cost for lube, flux, heat, gas checks, etc? They should go on that page and somewhere, there should be entries for labor costs, because if there isn't it can be assumed that it is a third world country that is using slave labor to keep prices competitive. the cost of mining and processing exist, even if it isn't paid labor.

Then, A genuine cost analysis sheet would make some effort to amortize the equipment used.

I'm simply holding people to the standards that the professional makers must use to set pricing on their goods. Since the makers buy powder and primers at bulk, it's fair to say that with free bullets and brass the cost of their ammunition is probably two cents, but they have to account for every cent of outlay.
 
When you take the actual process of remaking ammo, it's great if you spend hundreds of hours and a thousand dollars or more in equipment so one part of that process becomes free you are seriously and dangerously stretching the simple truth about remanufacturing ammunition by adding a completely separate process to acquire materials.

one of the things that I would use to bolster that argument is just plain, simple, gap accounting processes. One page would add the already priced components per item together and get the actual price per round.

other pages would add up the actual costs of components such as primers and powder, including taxes or other extraneous costs.

The page for the bullets would be broken down into the cost of manufacturing, and nothing is free if you are making it except waste. Is there a cost for lube, flux, heat, gas checks, etc? They should go on that page and somewhere, there should be entries for labor costs, because if there isn't it can be assumed that it is a third world country that is using slave labor to keep prices competitive. the cost of mining and processing exist, even if it isn't paid labor.
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Let’s say you go to the movies, how much does that cost?

Let’s not forget to include how much your time costs, the vehicle cost that drove you there, how much the clothes and shoes cost, the comb you did your hair with, how many hours of time you spent making the money to pay for all of that...

Lots of ways to over analyze things. If you don’t think you can load a lot more ammunition for less money and it doesn’t have to take forever, you might want to poke around http://castboolits.gunloads.com lots of folks (over 45,000 members) there that know what they are doing and help others figure it out.

The prices I posted are what they are after tax that’s just it, down to the cent at least.
 
you just threw out a straw man argument, the movie comparison doesn't even fall into the same continent.

Here is the simple, melted down version of what I said.

If you hire an accountant to go over your personal affairs and financials, he's going to tell you exactly what I just said. It doesn't work that way. You could also ask the next question that goes hand in hand with your thoughts. As you collect your brass and lead, have you ever collected so much brass that you sell it? there you go, you need to add your recycling profits into the equation and that means that you are reloading at an even lower price.

I've really said all I wanted to say. If you want to count the free components into the price, your accountant will just have to accept that quirk. It will drive him nuts, but he'll just have to bear with it.
 
briandg, I understand your position and point of view. I just don't agree.

I've done the math before, specifically for my swaged bullets that use .40 S&W cases as jackets. There ARE 'hidden' costs. You are correct. There always are - as jmorris hinted at. But they're still minimal ... arguably inconsequential, in some cases.

I obtain range lead when I'm already at the range to shoot. I already have a membership to shoot, and don't have to pay for extra time to enjoy picking up those nuggets of lead. It can't even be argued that there's any cost in the containers used for collection and transport, either. I use empty water bottles (tear resistant :D) or bags from my vehicle, and/or empty ammo boxes from the range garbage cans (when no bags or water bottles available ... and I'm not using someone else's from the trash).

I melt range lead with a dutch oven that was given to me because it was rusted beyond saving for food preparation, a turkey fryer burner that was purchased for other uses, and thrift store utensils ($1.25 total - they still have tags on them!).
Ingots are poured into molds that paid themselves off long ago.
Propane cost to run the turkey fryer burner is about $1.00 / hr.
Handling is done with old welding gloves.

I can process more than 90 lbs of usable alloy through that little dutch oven in about an hour (more if I'm not dealing with range lead). That's barely cracking one cent ($0.011) per pound in processing costs. ($0.00000157 per grain)

Tumbling the brass for cleaning uses about 70 watts. I pay $0.74 / kwh. I tumble for about 30 minutes for most loads, up to an hour for really dirty stuff. We'll meet in the middle at 45 minutes. That's 0.07 kwh at $0.74 / kwh, for 45 minutes. It works out to $0.039 per load ($0.03885).
I rarely run solely .40 S&W, but if I do, it's about 250-300 pieces at a time. So, that's $0.0000141 per case for cleaning.

I no longer bother, after actual field testing on game and test media, but if I were still bonding the cores of my swaged bullets, that would be another 'hidden' cost. The cheap stuff that I use costs $1.89 for a 2 oz container of paste flux, and is good for about 450 cases/jackets. That's about forty five ten-thousandths ($0.0045) of a cent per case/jacket.

I use a 7x57mm sizing die for swaging. I paid $5 for an old Bair 2-die set that came with an additional sizing die; and the seating die is also actually suitable for the swaging process. Total transportation cost to get those dies was minimal. I was already in the area to pick up some other things, and happened to get a call from the seller. I detoured just 1.5 blocks off the main road, and back. So... call it $1.70 per die, with a usable lifespan of about 15,000 bullets per die. (Using fired cases increases die wear, due to embedded abrasives.)
But, but... but! I also own several 7x57mm rifles. Those dies can serve double-duty.
I call that an inconsequential cost. Others might call it 'hidden'. Even without a use for making actual 7x57mm ammo, and figuring for 5,000 bullets per die, the cost per bullet is less than 4 ten-thousandths of a cent ($0.00034).

And, of course, there are more tools and processes that could be discussed.
But I'll add up the above, and see where that gets us.

Figuring for a 9mm 115 gr FN**, somehow being made via a similar process with .380 Auto brass as the 'jacket' and some fictional sizing die that is suitable for swaging the necessary bullet shape:
$0.000102 (= $0.00000157/gr x 65 gr per bullet for alloy processing [the cases weigh 50 gr, so less lead is needed])
$0.0000141 (cleaning)
$0.0045 (flux for bonded bullets)
$0.00034 (die amortization)
=
$0.00495641 for a bonded bullet.
$0.00045641 for an unbonded bullet.

Less than half a cent for a bonded bullet.
Less than one two-thousandth of a cent for a standard bullet.

The point...
Some hidden costs do add up, like the flux used for bonding in that example. But omitting that flux (which I have done in real life, because it doesn't matter) drops the cost to the point that the entire cost of the bullet is inconsequential. This example, though fictional to stick with the 115 gr 9mm line of discussion**, is sitting at $0.45 per thousand!

None of the above uses special tools or requires special skills, either.

**I really wanted to go with my .430" diameter, 275 gr '.40 S&W' bullet, but it skews the numbers in a manner that makes the comparison difficult. --Just as cheap, pound for pound, but the comparison isn't as clear.


Anyway...
If you made it this far, thanks for reading. Enjoy your weekend.
I know you and I disagree a lot, but I'm not really trying to argue here. But, the discussion is here and I dabble in many of the less popular activities in the reloading world, so it's fun to talk about how some of those activities compare to "normal" people's reloading.
 
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^if you see the numbers calculated in that post, it’s pretty obvious that the costs have been well calculated. I bet he didn’t even hire an accountant....
 
Definitely not. An accountant would have rounded everything to $0.00 and called it good.
A scientist would have thrown everything right out the window, after seeing a different number of digits of precision in each value.
 
If you made it this far, thanks for reading. Enjoy your weekend.
I know you and I disagree a lot, but I'm not really trying to argue here. But, the discussion is here and I dabble in many of the less popular activities in the reloading world, so it's fun to talk about how some of those activities compare to "normal" people's reloading.
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Of course I did. how could I expect everyone else to read my posts without giving due courtesy? The most important thing is that if a person doesn't read the learning process is cut off at the stalk.

My grand dad would have been right there with you guys, saving every cent he could. The old guy straightened out old nails and reused them as he worked. I've done that, it isn't worth it. I gotta admire the guy for being able to drive a recycled nail, it's like trying to pound a soda straw through the top of a pop can.

I also gotta admire you people who will go to the ends of the earth to take complete ownership of their hobby. Not very many people are interested in such depth of understanding or independence.

You know, if you came by to visit, there are still numerous old mines with existing pockets of galena ore. Rent a truck, haul a few tons home, and you can refine your own for a new experience. I'll even give you a hand with the maps.
 
I think I'm too old, and still too young, for Galena. Maybe one day...

Enjoy your weekend, man. If I can get over this Korean Crud that I've got, I'll try to enjoy mine.
 
FrankenMauser said:
briandg, I understand your position and point of view. I just don't agree.


$0.00495641 for a bonded bullet.
$0.00045641 for an unbonded bullet.

Less than half a cent for a bonded bullet.
Less than one two-thousandth of a cent for a standard bullet.
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Impressive! I wish this forum had a LIKE button for posts like this.
 
Ehh, once again, he used free stuff like found brass and salvage lead. If he was really trying hard, he could make his bullets for free like other people do. But since I am a precise thinker and speaker it would come out to zero, as he said, by rounding it off to two decimal points off of the dollar.

Now I really want to own a gun that can shoot one of those .40 bonded bullets and something to shoot them with.

Now I wonder. with all of the people who make free bullets from found lead, would they still be free if a stranger came to the front door and asked for a cup of bullets?

Let's be serious, I won't even give a stranger at my door a cup of water. I've got a garden hose he can borrow if he'll pay me a penny.
 
The offer still stands for anyone who wants to collect ore straight from the vein. Our ore around here even has a tiny bit of silver that can be collected after smelting. Lead can be obtained from the mineral galena by using a standard upflow furnace and charcoal. Every lead bullet made, probably up a bit past 1800 or so was cast from lead smelted by hand.


It would be an interesting thing for people to experiment with, I did so when I was a younger guy. Used a section of clay sewer pipe full of charcoal and a blow pipe.
 
From the responses, I wasn't really missing anything. If you have to pay anything near market price for lead, you can't reload anything for the current cost of non-target grade 22LR ammo. If you want to scrounge lead and do the work of making it into bullets, you can meet, or slightly beat, the price of 22 plinking ammo.

I've cast bullets, melted down wheel weights, and even scrounged a bit of lead. It's more mess and work than the rest of the reloading process. If it makes you happy to engage in all that... enjoy. But I'll leave it to when it becomes necessary to my shooting.
 
Occasionally in one of the threads I'll read a comment about someone being able to reload rounds for less money than they can buy 22LR. While I enjoy reloading, I simply cannot make the math support that statement.

.....If you want to scrounge lead and do the work of making it into bullets, you can meet, or slightly beat, the price of 22 plinking ammo.
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And you just ruined your own argument.
 
BBarn said:
From the responses, I wasn't really missing anything. If you have to pay anything near market price for lead, you can't reload anything for the current cost of non-target grade 22LR ammo. If you want to scrounge lead and do the work of making it into bullets, you can meet, or slightly beat, the price of 22 plinking ammo.
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I put about 300 cast bullet rounds downrange yesterday. This included 120 rounds of 9x21, 30 rounds 38 ACP, 75 rounds 9mm Luger, 30 rounds of .45 Colt, 30 rounds of light .30-06 loads, and 15 .460 S&W. I'm sure these 300 rounds cost more than plinker grade .22's, but I'd be willing to bet they cost less than a box of 500.
 
jmorris said:
And you just ruined your own argument.
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From a scrounger's point of view that's true. But I'm simply not interested in starting with dirt bank lead and turning it into a bullet to save a nickel or dime per shot of centerfire.

Besides, I place scrounging outside the arena of reloading. As a scrounger, I would sell range pickup brass and reclaimed lead to offset the cost of purchased reloading components or ammo. And if I put the proceeds from the sale of reclaimed lead and brass toward the cost of 22LR...
 
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From a scrounger's point of view that's true. But I'm simply not interested in starting with dirt bank lead and turning it into a bullet to save a nickel or dime per shot of centerfire.
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It’s not a point of view, opinions are opnions and facts are facts. I understand your opnion and have had the same one at times in my life. Like I said before, if everyone reloaded there wouldn’t be any free stuff to pick up because everyone would gather up what they (re)use every time they shoot.

However, from the OP.

Occasionally in one of the threads I'll read a comment about someone being able to reload rounds for less money than they can buy 22LR. While I enjoy reloading, I simply cannot make the math support that statement.
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You have been shown “the math” and it works, after taxes. If you choose not to “go through the hoops” that’s fine but you can’t ignore the fact that it can be done. That’s all you were missing.

Just because you choose not to do something doesn’t mean it can’t be done.
 
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There are obviously different ways to look at it. If one wishes to include the benefit of scrounging in their range regime, they can do so. But it should be applied across the board since it can be used to offset the total cost to shoot any ammo, 22LR included.
 
While I've never heard of anyone being able to reload a centerfire load for less than a 22lr, I do know for a fact that I can and do reload 158grn plated .357 Mag loads for less than I can find 22mag ammo. For example, I currently reload my .357 Mag loads above for 13.1¢ per rd and the cheapest .22 Win Mag I can find is Armscor 40grn .22 Win Mag for $7.02 per box of 50 or 14.0¢ per rd plus shipping.
 
The mere fact that we're discussing how cheap we can go does highlight something else:
That, as reloaders, many of us are always looking at the bottom line. If a little labor here, and a little trick there, and waiting for a better deal over here, will save use a bit of money, we do it. If those same concepts don't 'save' us money, but stretch the dollar further, we do it.

Just how far each individual is willing to go may differ. But, for the most part, we're all still working on pinching pennies in every way possible, even if still reloading with the primary focus being higher quality ammunition - or ammunition 'tuned' to our specific firearms.

I've seen some people that claim reloading isn't about the money, that they use new components for EVERY load, and that the only reason they do it is for the hand-tailored loads.
But even that could be argued to be false, according to some of the arguments I've seen here. If it isn't about the money, why do it yourself? There are reloading services out there that will load custom ammunition for you! Then there's no need for stocking components, owning the reloading tools, or spending time reloading.



COSteve - I really like the ArmsCor .22 WMR. Not only was it exceptionally cheaply priced when I bought my .22 WMR, but it performs very well in my rifle.
.22 WMR is one of the few places where I saw the writing on the wall, before the Barackalypse. I managed to set aside enough funds to add another 1,500 rounds, or so, to the stash, before prices went crazy. I've got one of the large-size Cabela's 'dry storage' boxes packed to the gills with ArmsCor, Fiocchi, and a small amount of Winchester Supreme 30 gr and 34 gr HPs, and CCI Maxi-Mags.
I'm probably set for life, at this point.
 
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