.223 vs 5.56x? and .308 vs 7.62x?
- Thread starter RichardEdward
- Start date
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Richard Edward: .223, .308 and .30-'06 military brass is thicker than civilian brass, but the outside dimensions are the same. The case wall is thicker for GI brass. With military brass, the total capacity is less.
I know more about the '06: My pet load of 4064 is 52.5 grains behind a 150-grain bullet. If I put that into GI brass, it flattens primers, indicating more chamber pressure than is actually the wisest thing to do. I might get into difficulty if I used a faster burning powder; 4064 is sorta "forgiving" compared to, say, 3031 or 4895.
The obvious test is to fill a case of each type, and then weigh the charges. For .308 and .30-'
06, the difference is approximately four grains weight of powder, IIRC. Mas o menos...
Hope this nattering helps,
Art
I know more about the '06: My pet load of 4064 is 52.5 grains behind a 150-grain bullet. If I put that into GI brass, it flattens primers, indicating more chamber pressure than is actually the wisest thing to do. I might get into difficulty if I used a faster burning powder; 4064 is sorta "forgiving" compared to, say, 3031 or 4895.
The obvious test is to fill a case of each type, and then weigh the charges. For .308 and .30-'
06, the difference is approximately four grains weight of powder, IIRC. Mas o menos...
Hope this nattering helps,
Art
RichardEdward
New member
art..
so you are saying that it is ok to use .223 in a 5.56 rifle or vice versa as long at you check to make sure you arent using more powder / or a faster powder than the typical round for that rifle??
so you are saying that it is ok to use .223 in a 5.56 rifle or vice versa as long at you check to make sure you arent using more powder / or a faster powder than the typical round for that rifle??
vince weng
New member
As I said .223 != 5.56 NATO.
Please refer to http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/223.html
as you know the inception of M-16. Stoner sited to use fast burn powder (stick powder) for this weapon. Unfortunately, military still used ball powder, therefore, malfunctions (jams) happened because ball powder was dirtier than stick powder. Of course this was corrected.
Although I don't have reloading data on my hands, at least we know that the powder in 5.56 NATO is different from that in commercial .223. The reloading manuals don't mention the differences.
Please refer to http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/223.html
as you know the inception of M-16. Stoner sited to use fast burn powder (stick powder) for this weapon. Unfortunately, military still used ball powder, therefore, malfunctions (jams) happened because ball powder was dirtier than stick powder. Of course this was corrected.
Although I don't have reloading data on my hands, at least we know that the powder in 5.56 NATO is different from that in commercial .223. The reloading manuals don't mention the differences.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Richard Edward: If you are reloading around maximum charge, use maybe two grains weight less powder in GI brass than in Civilian brass, for the .223. I'll guess it's maybe three grains less weight for a .308, roughly.
A bolt-action rifle won't care about the source of factory ammo, whether it's civilian or GI "surplus". It all will fit--at least the stuff I've bought over the last 25 years has. Heck, same for a Mini-14.
Now, most folks prefer "small base" resizing dies for rifle cartridges used in a semi-auto--mostly for .308, although I guess it's true for the .223; dunno for sure. These dies compress the rearmost part of the cartridge case a couple of thousandths less than the regular dies. This facilitates reliable chambering during a string of fire. Bolt closure on semi-autos is somewhat less positive than for bolt-actions, since it depends on the force of the spring rather than the strength of the shooter and the leverage of the bolt handle.
FWIW, Art
A bolt-action rifle won't care about the source of factory ammo, whether it's civilian or GI "surplus". It all will fit--at least the stuff I've bought over the last 25 years has. Heck, same for a Mini-14.
Now, most folks prefer "small base" resizing dies for rifle cartridges used in a semi-auto--mostly for .308, although I guess it's true for the .223; dunno for sure. These dies compress the rearmost part of the cartridge case a couple of thousandths less than the regular dies. This facilitates reliable chambering during a string of fire. Bolt closure on semi-autos is somewhat less positive than for bolt-actions, since it depends on the force of the spring rather than the strength of the shooter and the leverage of the bolt handle.
FWIW, Art
RichardEdward
New member
ok.... i think i have a general understanding.. I could use either round in either weapon.. but i better be careful if i am using reload (error on the side of the angels)?
how about 9mm luger vs 9mm NATO? same thing?
how about 9mm luger vs 9mm NATO? same thing?
NEW Fulton FAQ!
What's the difference between 5.56MM and .223 Remington chambers in the AR-15®-type rifle?
http://www.fulton-armory.com/556-vs-223-Chambers.htm
Would someone care to comment on shooting 5.56 mil spec ammo in a .223 SAAMI chrome lined AR? I've heard everything from yea to
nay on other lists and am looking for the voice of reason here. I have an Armalite M15A2 on order that I was told by Armalite would
have an M16 Nato chamber (I specifically asked this before I ordered). Now they say all their guns have SAAMI spec chambers but they
are going to switch the chrome lined ones to Nato in the future due to customer demand. I know that SAAMI says not to shoot 5.56 in a
.223 chambered gun, but Armalite says it's fine. --Chance
If we are talking about .223 Remington SAAMI-spec chambers in an AR15, OH NO!
Do NOT use such a chambering if you EVER plan on shooting any military NATO 5.56 ammo, which happens to be only the most common,
least expensive and most widely used AR15 cartridge available in all the world. In other words, NEVER buy/use a SAAMI-spec chamber in
a battle rifle, especially if the barrel and chamber are chromed, as you cannot fix it!
Here's the problem. Many NATO cartridges have bullets that will become jammed into the rifling of a SAAMI chambering (the throat is
too short). This is VERY DANGEROUS, for a great number of reasons.
Fulton Armory uses a "5.56 Match" chambering in its rifles/uppers/barrels (in fact our barrels are marked as such), which is a slightly
modified SAAMI chamber with a tad longer throat to accommodate NATO bullets. The Fulton Armory 5.56 Match chamber allows for the
safe and reliable use of all SAAMI and NATO ammo, while offering the accuracy potential of the SAAMI chamberings with match
commercial cartridges. Remember, there's often a large difference between bolt guns and military rifles. This particularly true for the
5.56 vs .223; Fulton Armory is well known for the finest performance for any given platform, and our 5.56 Match chamber is one way we
achieve that performance with the AR-15-type rifle.
Hope this helps.
Best regards,
Clint McKee
What's the difference between 5.56MM and .223 Remington chambers in the AR-15®-type rifle?
http://www.fulton-armory.com/556-vs-223-Chambers.htm
Would someone care to comment on shooting 5.56 mil spec ammo in a .223 SAAMI chrome lined AR? I've heard everything from yea to
nay on other lists and am looking for the voice of reason here. I have an Armalite M15A2 on order that I was told by Armalite would
have an M16 Nato chamber (I specifically asked this before I ordered). Now they say all their guns have SAAMI spec chambers but they
are going to switch the chrome lined ones to Nato in the future due to customer demand. I know that SAAMI says not to shoot 5.56 in a
.223 chambered gun, but Armalite says it's fine. --Chance
If we are talking about .223 Remington SAAMI-spec chambers in an AR15, OH NO!
Do NOT use such a chambering if you EVER plan on shooting any military NATO 5.56 ammo, which happens to be only the most common,
least expensive and most widely used AR15 cartridge available in all the world. In other words, NEVER buy/use a SAAMI-spec chamber in
a battle rifle, especially if the barrel and chamber are chromed, as you cannot fix it!
Here's the problem. Many NATO cartridges have bullets that will become jammed into the rifling of a SAAMI chambering (the throat is
too short). This is VERY DANGEROUS, for a great number of reasons.
Fulton Armory uses a "5.56 Match" chambering in its rifles/uppers/barrels (in fact our barrels are marked as such), which is a slightly
modified SAAMI chamber with a tad longer throat to accommodate NATO bullets. The Fulton Armory 5.56 Match chamber allows for the
safe and reliable use of all SAAMI and NATO ammo, while offering the accuracy potential of the SAAMI chamberings with match
commercial cartridges. Remember, there's often a large difference between bolt guns and military rifles. This particularly true for the
5.56 vs .223; Fulton Armory is well known for the finest performance for any given platform, and our 5.56 Match chamber is one way we
achieve that performance with the AR-15-type rifle.
Hope this helps.
Best regards,
Clint McKee
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Humph.
Okay. As to chamber dimensions, FROM THE FRONT OF THE CASE MOUTH, BACK TO THE BOLT FACE, it seems that a commercial .223 chamber is the same as the military 5.56 chamber. It is the length of free-bore in front of the mouth of the cartridge case that is different. IIRC, this is called the "leade".
I've never actually looked in and measured, nor have I played with any of the longer, new military-bullet cartridges--69-grain?. But it seems to me that if you're shooting the older, 50- or 55-grain loads, it don't make no nevermind, nohow what make of cartridge is fired in what kind of rifle.
I guess this is why all sorts of ammo--including "liberated" ammo from Fort Hood--has worked in several AR-15s, Minis and a couple of bolt-actions, and known-to-be-civilian ammo worked in a buddy's M-16. It was all 55-grain or lighter bullets.
Damfino,
Art
Okay. As to chamber dimensions, FROM THE FRONT OF THE CASE MOUTH, BACK TO THE BOLT FACE, it seems that a commercial .223 chamber is the same as the military 5.56 chamber. It is the length of free-bore in front of the mouth of the cartridge case that is different. IIRC, this is called the "leade".
I've never actually looked in and measured, nor have I played with any of the longer, new military-bullet cartridges--69-grain?. But it seems to me that if you're shooting the older, 50- or 55-grain loads, it don't make no nevermind, nohow what make of cartridge is fired in what kind of rifle.
I guess this is why all sorts of ammo--including "liberated" ammo from Fort Hood--has worked in several AR-15s, Minis and a couple of bolt-actions, and known-to-be-civilian ammo worked in a buddy's M-16. It was all 55-grain or lighter bullets.
Damfino,
Art
BigG,
Yes it is safe to fire, 308 and 7.62 NATO (7.62X51) are one in the same. Some of the confusion comes from the 7.62x39
which is a combloc caliber used primarily in the SKS and AK-47. Russia is now leading the way with it's newest military caliber
the 5.45x39, after seeing the effectiveness of the 223/5.56 in Vietnam.
The 223 and the 5.56 are one in the same. The 223 was developed solely for the military and was not a caliber that
existed before it's development for the military (except for a few wildcatters) and was subsequently pushed (way to
early) into combat usage in Vietnam. Later, with a lot of politicking and money the 223 was designated as a NATO
weapon, hence it was tagged the 5.56 to satisfy our European counter parts. While the mil. specs. for the 223/5.56 may be
loaded a little hotter than their civilian counterparts they are one in the same.
223 Rem. and 5.56 NATO= one in the same
308 Win. and 7.62 NATO (7.62x51)= one in the same
7.62 Combloc (7.62x39) Is a different animal with about the same poop as a 30-30
Yes it is safe to fire, 308 and 7.62 NATO (7.62X51) are one in the same. Some of the confusion comes from the 7.62x39
which is a combloc caliber used primarily in the SKS and AK-47. Russia is now leading the way with it's newest military caliber
the 5.45x39, after seeing the effectiveness of the 223/5.56 in Vietnam.
The 223 and the 5.56 are one in the same. The 223 was developed solely for the military and was not a caliber that
existed before it's development for the military (except for a few wildcatters) and was subsequently pushed (way to
early) into combat usage in Vietnam. Later, with a lot of politicking and money the 223 was designated as a NATO
weapon, hence it was tagged the 5.56 to satisfy our European counter parts. While the mil. specs. for the 223/5.56 may be
loaded a little hotter than their civilian counterparts they are one in the same.
223 Rem. and 5.56 NATO= one in the same
308 Win. and 7.62 NATO (7.62x51)= one in the same
7.62 Combloc (7.62x39) Is a different animal with about the same poop as a 30-30