I was in the same situation last spring and went with the 223 after thinking how much I would really be shooting past 500 yards, but my personal range only goes to 500 which is the main reason. I spend most of my time around 200-300 yards still working on the basics. I go up to 100 yards quite a bit when working on different loads. I am just now starting to shoot at 500 and it's a whole new ball game from 300. I am a huge Savage fan and they come with a 1:9 twist barrel. I found a Savage Stevens for $300 out the door and haven't regretted it for a minute. It is like a disease though. I thought I would build a nice budget rifle to shoot with. Now I have about $500 in reloading equipment and am in the process of upgrading stocks and am trying not to spend more on a stock than my gun was.
223 vs. 308
- Thread starter bch044
- Start date
You've gotta be kidding me...
If you think hitting a minute of angle (or less) size target at long range is as simple as dialing elevation and windage according to a "dope chart"- or ballistics program, you haven't shot much at long range.
To the OP:
If your goal is long range, go with the .308 if you don't handload. It's gonna be expensive, so that's the downside.
The key to long range shooting is trigger time-doping the wind- and handloading means you can run 100 rounds down the tube in a day and not break the bank.
.223 is cheaper to shoot- but inferior ballistic performance at the range you're discussing. If you chuck a round into the chamber and begin shooting at long range off the bat, you're going to get frustrated because you're going to miss far more than you're gonna hit. Start at a couple of hundred yards and begin working your way out as your expertise improves.
Avoid frustrating yourself unnecessarily.
My experience is with the large caliber you shoo less and the cost is about the same.
Recoil is not an issue as you can get a limb saver or the like for the 308 (and not needed on the 223 of course)
308 is better long range, but if you want more flexibility a 30-06 is better choice (wide range or bullet sizes to choose from) Most work in the 308 but if yu want to go heavy then the 308 won't to it.
You can get some 20 inch 223 with the right twist in a semi auto (RRA makes some great choices there) with good barrels and bias with the 1-8 wylde chamber.
Otherwise you do have to specify and or custom order a 223 w2ith the right twist for the long range stuff (1-9 to 1-7 twist) you don't see in the bolt actions.
I wish I ad access to 500 yds, want to try that with the 30-06s.
You would think Alaska anything goes but better stateside with the long ranges (we are crowded into a small corner of the state and no roads to the wide opens!)
Recoil is not an issue as you can get a limb saver or the like for the 308 (and not needed on the 223 of course)
308 is better long range, but if you want more flexibility a 30-06 is better choice (wide range or bullet sizes to choose from) Most work in the 308 but if yu want to go heavy then the 308 won't to it.
You can get some 20 inch 223 with the right twist in a semi auto (RRA makes some great choices there) with good barrels and bias with the 1-8 wylde chamber.
Otherwise you do have to specify and or custom order a 223 w2ith the right twist for the long range stuff (1-9 to 1-7 twist) you don't see in the bolt actions.
I wish I ad access to 500 yds, want to try that with the 30-06s.
You would think Alaska anything goes but better stateside with the long ranges (we are crowded into a small corner of the state and no roads to the wide opens!)
howabouttheiris
New member
ahhhh... I love the internet....
"If you think hitting a minute of angle (or less) size target at long range is as simple "
If one was to read what I posted carefully you would see that I said nothing of the sort. My intent was to simply imply that all the skills (windage, elevation, wind control, trigger control) that would be required to shoot sub-moa at 100 yards would be more than enough to shoot at any distance. Typically distance plates are 18" wide silhouette targets or 2MOA+ gongs. Since most people lie to themselves about the skill required to constantly shoot 1 MOA groups, I suspect that this is why there is a disconnect with my commments. Shooting at distance is not something that should be avoided. It is nothing more than your basic skill set amplified by distance to show you how well you are really doing.
As for the 308 being better at distance... here are the numbers.
typical .308 BC = .4
typical .223 BC = .3
Better. Sure. .4 > .3 So a 40" windage on a 223 is a ~30" windage on a 308.... adjust and fire another round. Get out there, don't be scared of it.
"you haven't shot much at long range"
I am well past fighting on the internet... so whatever. I spent my 3 hours at the 1000 yard line this AM. I suspect my 5000 rnds per year at this distance pales in comparison to you, so please instruct the original poster on how to best achieve this.
"If you think hitting a minute of angle (or less) size target at long range is as simple "
If one was to read what I posted carefully you would see that I said nothing of the sort. My intent was to simply imply that all the skills (windage, elevation, wind control, trigger control) that would be required to shoot sub-moa at 100 yards would be more than enough to shoot at any distance. Typically distance plates are 18" wide silhouette targets or 2MOA+ gongs. Since most people lie to themselves about the skill required to constantly shoot 1 MOA groups, I suspect that this is why there is a disconnect with my commments. Shooting at distance is not something that should be avoided. It is nothing more than your basic skill set amplified by distance to show you how well you are really doing.
As for the 308 being better at distance... here are the numbers.
typical .308 BC = .4
typical .223 BC = .3
Better. Sure. .4 > .3 So a 40" windage on a 223 is a ~30" windage on a 308.... adjust and fire another round. Get out there, don't be scared of it.
"you haven't shot much at long range"
I am well past fighting on the internet... so whatever. I spent my 3 hours at the 1000 yard line this AM. I suspect my 5000 rnds per year at this distance pales in comparison to you, so please instruct the original poster on how to best achieve this.
So, you're just discounting the most difficult part of shooting long range- which is doping the wind?
Sure, you can have your Kestrel and Strelok at the line, but if you have 5000 rounds per year at 1K, you KNOW it is not as simple as shooting groups at 100 yards- unless, you've found some "windless", and void of other environmental factors, shooting utpoia that I can only dream of...
Sorry, I still take exception with your statement.
Sure, you can have your Kestrel and Strelok at the line, but if you have 5000 rounds per year at 1K, you KNOW it is not as simple as shooting groups at 100 yards- unless, you've found some "windless", and void of other environmental factors, shooting utpoia that I can only dream of...
Sorry, I still take exception with your statement.
howabouttheiris
New member
Well let's agree to disagree.... sure it is harder, but not out of reach.
Guess the wind +- 3MPH, make an adjustment and send the round. Miss by a foot and crank another few clicks..... It should not be reserved for the uber-elite.
I learned more in 30 minutes firing at the 4" plate at BOTW at 500 yards than I ever could have firing at 100 yards (and measuring 1/16ths of an inch)
Guess the wind +- 3MPH, make an adjustment and send the round. Miss by a foot and crank another few clicks..... It should not be reserved for the uber-elite.
I learned more in 30 minutes firing at the 4" plate at BOTW at 500 yards than I ever could have firing at 100 yards (and measuring 1/16ths of an inch)
I agree with this assessment. If you're a serious, competitive target shooter, you will encounter shooting situations when doping the wind correctly is vital to attaining a good score. And .308 projectiles are less influenced by the wind than are .22 caliber bullets. The only advantages that I think the .223/5.56 cartridge has over the .308 cartridge for target (and hunting/self-defense purposes too, for that matter) is that they cost less, recoil less and, for "tactical" reasons, you can carry more rounds for the same amount of weight and bulk and the magazines will have a higher capacity given the same size. These advantages, however, can mean a lot for the individual shooter.
4runnerman
New member
One other advantage of the 223 is speed. 300 to 500 FPS faster than the 308. Can make a small difference.All in all i would go with the 308.
I have shot both at 600 yards and hands down the 308 win's almost always.
If you find that day with no wind
,Then i would give the 223 a good Shot as IMHO it is a more accurate round than the 308.
I have shot both at 600 yards and hands down the 308 win's almost always.
If you find that day with no wind
,Then i would give the 223 a good Shot as IMHO it is a more accurate round than the 308.I too started down this road a few years ago with the simple goal of shooting targets. First at 100-300 yards and then the 300-1,000 yards. Well it's been an interesting journey and I've learned a lot more about bullets then I have about rifles.
My advice is go with a Savage .308 with a 24+ inch barrel. A lot of the .308 you see for sale are the 20" carabine. The Savage is the best out of the box factory rifle on the market. After you get some experience with it, for a couple hundred of dollars you can have it accurized and that will take you to a 1,000 yards but you'll have to use the 175 grain bullets to stay supersonic at that distance.
Most of the guys I know that are shooting at 1,000 yards for competition are using custom rifles chambered in 6.5mm. But I wouldn't put the cart before the horse. If recoil is not an issue the .308 is the way to go.
My advice is go with a Savage .308 with a 24+ inch barrel. A lot of the .308 you see for sale are the 20" carabine. The Savage is the best out of the box factory rifle on the market. After you get some experience with it, for a couple hundred of dollars you can have it accurized and that will take you to a 1,000 yards but you'll have to use the 175 grain bullets to stay supersonic at that distance.
Most of the guys I know that are shooting at 1,000 yards for competition are using custom rifles chambered in 6.5mm. But I wouldn't put the cart before the horse. If recoil is not an issue the .308 is the way to go.
4runnerman
New member
Eppie- With ya all the way. Been there done that. Little bit different with what i see. Most 1000 yard 308 shooters i know are shooting 155 palma Hybrids or just 155 palmas. Much easier to keep 155 supersonic to 1000 than a 175 and the Coeficency is almost a match. I was doing FTR class with my 308,but decided F open is what i really wanted to do. Thinking of doing both next summer though