223 testing results

After playing with LC brass for a while, I have decided to give up on them. The weight varies a lot, 91 - 98gr, or close to 8%. I learned that the government uses multiple suppliers, so even with close weight sorting, consistency has a lot to be desired. I suppose it is due to variations in brass density, which amount to as much as 5%.

-TL

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So I do not have a way to adjust primer seating depth at this point. I am using a RCBS hand priming tool and just seat by feel.

It could be the brass or flash hole, but I think its more related to the powder.

I did some testing with the same lot of brass and same lot of primers out of my old barrel, but using BL-C(2) and Hornady 75g OTM . While I definitely got some odd results on the high end, going lower provided better results than the actual black hills 77g OTM I tested in my gun for a base line.

Data from Hornadys 11th.
Hornady 75g OTM
Seated 2.250 per Hornady
LC brass
CCI 450 primers (same lot)
BL-C(2) powder

25.2, AVG 2652, SD 10.19, ES 35
25.4, AVG 2567, SD 13.79, ES 44
25.6, AVG 2589, SD 21.58, ES 75
25.8, AVG 2687, SD 28.67, ES 99
26.0, AVG 2710, SD 36.22, ES 117

Granted again this is some older data, I do believe I fired 10rnds per group on this one, but I may still have been at 12ft with the chrono, I can't remember. But I am doing better at keeping records going forward :D.

In any case I will be testing this load again in the near future as well. Got overtime scheduled, i am really looking forward to having a chronograph again.
 
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Ditching LC brass sigma shrinks 25%. My load holds slightly better than 1moa in vertical variation (taking out windage) at 300yd.

The horizontal variation is 3-4 times more, even though I was trying hard to read the wind and compensate. Storm was rolling in Tuesday afternoon. Wind was over 10mph and gusty. Easily it was 6" to left or to the right if not careful. 62gr fmjbt .224 bullets don't do particularly well in cross wind.

I found FC and Wolf brass are good. I weight sort them to range of 0.5gr. Have to caulk about 50% for that. It is ok. They are free range pick-ups.

-TL

PS. I heard RWS brass was the best. They are kinda rare and tend to be heavy (smaller capacity) but indeed consistent. Have some saved up to try. If they are that good, I will buy more from the manufacturer at 8 cents a round, supposed to be once fired.



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You'll find Lapua and Norma, and RWS all have runout tolerances about twice as tight as domestic brass and that they have no flash hole burrs. They all work well from an accuracy standpoint.

The main advantage to Lake City has been that its heads are harder than anyone else's, so they are less prone to rim bends and loosening primer pockets than other makes. They are, however, produced not only by Lake City but by Federal and others. Natchez used to sell unprimed Federal/LC brass, and I got a couple thousand at the time just to have a consistent lot.

One thing to keep in mind about cases is that the heads have tolerances for rim thickness and diameter and the taper of the extractor relief and other things that don't affect the case capacity but that do affect weight. The tolerance extremes, if additive, can account for about 5.5 grains of the weight difference in the 223/5.56 case without changing internal capacity. So, unfortunately, you have to measure the capacity to know whether it is actually different or not. The water method is standard, but I would just use a primer pocket plug and some sharp sand as a quick look at whether the volume is really different in a light and heavy case or not. Sorting by weight is not sorting by capacity, but at least it does improve the chances you've found brass that came off the same or similar tooling.
 
Unclenick. I think the brass produced by the same manufacturer will have minimum weight variations. The reason to ditch LC brass is that they from different suppliers and bear the same head stamp. Even for FC, I recycle the one that has date code on head stamp. I read they are the military contract brass.

I have an additional layer of QA. When I shoot with Labradar, I will pick out the rare ones that have way out of wack MV. I will weight them again and look for abnormality. If I can't find any, I will make them and give them 2nd chance. They will go to the green bin if they get caught again. Measuring capacity is no doubt the best, but it is very little fun.

-TL

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There is a lot of negative press about LC brass in here. I simply sorted some once fired by year, fully prepped it, loaded up a variety of loads behind Hornady 75’s. Shot all groups under 1” and my any under 0.75”.
 
Nathan said:
There is a lot of negative press about LC brass in here. I simply sorted some once fired by year, fully prepped it, loaded up a variety of loads behind Hornady 75’s. Shot all groups under 1” and my any under 0.75”.
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I tried, but was not able, to sort LC brass by year. I ended up with a few in each of many buckets. The mixed year LC brass don't work well. Weight varies from 91 to 98gr. Even with close weight sorting, sd in MV is disappointing. I reckon it would be more efficient to weight sort other brands.

-TL

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These days I normally use Lapua and Norma brass, though I did recently get some Starline. In past years, when I was a lot more serious about accuracy, specifically in my 220 Swift, when my small supply of Norma brass wore out, I could only get Winchester brass. When fully prepped, the accuracy was every bit as good as when I was using Norma, and maybe even better. But the problem was prepping the brass, which I tired of. So, back to Norma brass. My point is that maybe the LC brass, weight sorted and fully prepped, might be all a fellow needs. Of course, need is subjective…
 
Back a couple years ago when I started shooting and reloading 223 I was able to obtain a lot of once fired brass from many manufactures. Tons of LC with years stamps from 14 to 21. So I did a little unscientific testing and loaded up 20ea of LC, FC, PMC, GFC and Norma. All were loaded exactly the same with the same components. Shot 10 each over a Mag Speed chrono and 10 each at 3" targets at 100yards. The smallest groups and the most consistent speeds were the Norma followed by the PMC followed by the GFC. So after that little test all crimped primer LC brass went bye-bye.

Now after all this time all that is on my bench is 600pcs of Norma, 1k pcs of PMC and now 350pcs of once fired Hornady that another friend has gifted me.
 
I have been using LC as I was gifted a rather large supply if it. I have several thousand pieces of it, around 1/2 of a 5gal bucket.

I have never tried "nice" brass. I want to try some Laupa at some point, but Its expensive and hard to justify putting into a mid tier AR with a medium contour barrel.
 
I think LC will work if you sort head stamp by year, followed by weight sorting to within 1gr. The first step is difficult for me as I pick up brass at range. Not enough to fill each bucket with meaningful number of samples for weight sorting.

I have FC, wolf and win, none is boutique brass. My rifle is lower than mid range. Bear Creek arsenal upper with Wilde chamber for $250. Lower is $60 no name deal. The trigger is perhaps the only brand name product. It is a Jewel 2-stage that has been discontinued for many years.

-TL

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Tango talk with Many at South Bay he’s the care taker . He can get you LC cases from the same lot . All the LC brass there is from the military and when they come out to shoot they shoot thousands of rounds at a time . Those all are likely pulled from the same pallet of ammo . Meaning likely all come from the same manufacturer. When are we going to Pala haha .
 
Ah good idea. I went there last week. The navy was there firing away their machine guns. I thought I was in a movie. I will talk to the man. Thanks.

I have been getting myself ready for the long range at Pala. Shooting 6.5mm grendel at 300yd before the storm rolled in. Wind was gusty and chaotic. It was 6" to left and 6" to the right when I switched to 5.56. Vertical was excellent with my sorted FC and Wolf brass. I was delighted.

I want to be a bit more ready before heading out to Pala. It is $40 a session. Need to have enough gun and ammo.

-TL

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I tried, but was not able, to sort LC brass by year. I ended up with a few in each of many buckets. The mixed year LC brass don't work well. Weight varies from 91 to 98gr. Even with close weight sorting, sd in MV is disappointing. I reckon it would be more efficient to weight sort other brands.
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What is weight sorting telling you? Seems like most in the precision sports have dropped that practice….
 
Is should in theory, given that the case is sized and trimmed, tell you how uniform the cases are. If the external dimensions are the same, and the volume of brass is the same, in theory the cases have a higher chance of being uniform in relation to each other.
 
Might be a good point in the discussion to ask how much accuracy folks are wanting from the LC brass. What’s good and what’s not good? Nobody has said that they can shoot 1/2” groups with Lapua but only 1 1/2” with Lake City.

I have a good bit of LC brass, but have been slowly resizing and trimming and removing primer crimps. I haven’t used any of it yet. Just saving it for later use. And I wasn’t planning to do any serious prep, like neck turning and flash hole cleanup. If I was set up for reloading, I’d go load up some rounds and see what I could do group-wise. And then weight sort some and try again. Might be interesting. Maybe then I could really prep some weight sorted brass and try that. Then compare it all to my Lapua loads.
 
I did a good bit of water volume test with 308 cases several years ago . This was with Lapua , FC ( Fed ) , and multiple year lots of LC brass . I don’t have the data in front of me but some LC years were just as consistent as commercial brass . LC 14 being the worst .

As far as accuracy, I’ve shot plenty of 1/2 moa 5 shot groups using LC brass in both 308 and 223 . That said I’ve never shot any group’s consistently in the 1’s 2’s or 3’s with any brass so it seems LC brass is able to shoot as well as I can . I will add I get my LC brass from a place where its more likely then not the LC brass I buy are all from the same lot which may explain my h2o results. I would not expect those same results with standard range pick up or buying randomly online .
 
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I also did a bunch of 308 volume and weight measurements at one point. I found weight only predicted the difference in internal volume to within about 20% of the measured value.
 
Unclenick said:
I also did a bunch of 308 volume and weight measurements at one point. I found weight only predicted the difference in internal volume to within about 20% of the measured value.
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Percentage variation in brass weight is not the same as the percentage variation of powder capacity. Here is the equation I derived.

Va=-0.12*Vb

Where Va is percentage variation of powder capacity, and Vb is percentage variation of brass weight.

The constant 0.12 is density ratio between water and brass. Brass is about 8 times denser than water.

That's assuming no variation in brass density (same batch from the same manufacturer). There is another equation linking Va to percentage variation of brass density. It shows a more significant factor, especially for smaller volume brass such as .223 rem. That's why stamp sorting could be more important than weight sorting, or less important for bigger casings such as .308 win.

-TL



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Sorting by weight can help. Its not going to turn LC into Lapua, but when you have a bunch of lc to use, its better than nothing.
 
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