.223 subsonic that cycles an AR-15...
- Thread starter cchardwick
- Start date
"What's the point of shooting a round at a reduced velocity knowing that isn't going to preform like it should? "
Silence.
I don't think it is any revelation that a jacketed bullet at 1100 fps isn't going to perform like it would at 3000 fps. That should be obvious. But appearently what isn't obvious is that the bullet still puts a hole in the target.
Let's say you are walking around with your AR15/M16 rifle loaded with your favorite varmint load. Your primary goal is to call coyotes but at some point you see a few squirrels and decide you want to bag them for dinner. You don't happen to be carrying around a couple spare .22LR or 9mm uppers so instead you reach in your pocket, pull out a magazine of subsonic .223 ammo, do a mag change and you are good to go.
Let's say you are on a tactical team getting ready to do a raid on a house. You notice that the occupants have a dog outside that you know is going to give away your presence to the people inside and ruin the element of surprise. You look around for your 9mm upper or your .22LR upper but realize these things only exist on internet gun forums. So, you do a quick mag swap replacing your regular duty ammo with subsonic .223. You knock off the dog and no one in the house is any the wiser. You do another quick mag swap and you are ready to kick in the door.
Let's say you are a bad **** operator.
You are doing some dirty deeds in enemy territory. You lay up during the day and work at night. Everything you need to live and survive is contained in your rucksack on your back. You meant to bring two or three other uppers with you like you read about on the internet but as an experienced soldier you realize that carrying 700 pounds of gear is only for the guys on-line. As you attempt to remain undetected, someone comes along and you realize they are going to eventually see you and give away your position. Again with the mag. change.
Let's say you are a mild mannered US civilian that owns and AR15 and a suppressor. You live outside of town but you have neighbors 50 yards or so away. You have some raccoons that raid your garbage cans every time you set them out for the garbage truck. You would like to be able to choose from a dozen or so different weapons but the only one you have that is suppressed is that AR15. You consider spending $700 or so for a different upper but decide instead to simply handload a few subsonic .223 rounds.
Let's say that you are a typical gun enthusiast that enjoys guns, shooting, and handloading. You own an AR15 and buy a suppressor for it. Because you enjoy handloading you think it would be fun to work up a good subsonic load for your AR.
Let's say you are a guy that owns 9 different suppressors. You have four different .22 suppressors as well as a dozen different guns threaded to accept those .22 suppressors including .22LR conversions for your Glock 17, your Glock 26, your 1911, your Browning Hi-Power, your Colt Officer's Model, and your AR15. So if you want to shoot a suppressed .22, you got that covered. You also have an LRM M169 suppressed 9mm upper, so if you wanted to shoot suppressed 9mm from your AR15s you got that covered also. But you don't want to do that. You want to shoot supressed .223 with subsonic ammo.
So you do.
That isn't so hard to understand is it ?
Some people just want to shoot subsonic .223.
Silence.
I don't think it is any revelation that a jacketed bullet at 1100 fps isn't going to perform like it would at 3000 fps. That should be obvious. But appearently what isn't obvious is that the bullet still puts a hole in the target.
Let's say you are walking around with your AR15/M16 rifle loaded with your favorite varmint load. Your primary goal is to call coyotes but at some point you see a few squirrels and decide you want to bag them for dinner. You don't happen to be carrying around a couple spare .22LR or 9mm uppers so instead you reach in your pocket, pull out a magazine of subsonic .223 ammo, do a mag change and you are good to go.
Let's say you are on a tactical team getting ready to do a raid on a house. You notice that the occupants have a dog outside that you know is going to give away your presence to the people inside and ruin the element of surprise. You look around for your 9mm upper or your .22LR upper but realize these things only exist on internet gun forums. So, you do a quick mag swap replacing your regular duty ammo with subsonic .223. You knock off the dog and no one in the house is any the wiser. You do another quick mag swap and you are ready to kick in the door.
Let's say you are a bad **** operator.
You are doing some dirty deeds in enemy territory. You lay up during the day and work at night. Everything you need to live and survive is contained in your rucksack on your back. You meant to bring two or three other uppers with you like you read about on the internet but as an experienced soldier you realize that carrying 700 pounds of gear is only for the guys on-line. As you attempt to remain undetected, someone comes along and you realize they are going to eventually see you and give away your position. Again with the mag. change.Let's say you are a mild mannered US civilian that owns and AR15 and a suppressor. You live outside of town but you have neighbors 50 yards or so away. You have some raccoons that raid your garbage cans every time you set them out for the garbage truck. You would like to be able to choose from a dozen or so different weapons but the only one you have that is suppressed is that AR15. You consider spending $700 or so for a different upper but decide instead to simply handload a few subsonic .223 rounds.
Let's say that you are a typical gun enthusiast that enjoys guns, shooting, and handloading. You own an AR15 and buy a suppressor for it. Because you enjoy handloading you think it would be fun to work up a good subsonic load for your AR.
Let's say you are a guy that owns 9 different suppressors. You have four different .22 suppressors as well as a dozen different guns threaded to accept those .22 suppressors including .22LR conversions for your Glock 17, your Glock 26, your 1911, your Browning Hi-Power, your Colt Officer's Model, and your AR15. So if you want to shoot a suppressed .22, you got that covered. You also have an LRM M169 suppressed 9mm upper, so if you wanted to shoot suppressed 9mm from your AR15s you got that covered also. But you don't want to do that. You want to shoot supressed .223 with subsonic ammo.
So you do.
That isn't so hard to understand is it ?
Some people just want to shoot subsonic .223.
"My next project (when the paper work gets here) will be a suppressed 45/70 pushing a 500grain at 1050 (1224 ft/lb). "
Keep in mind that the 500 grain bullet wasn't designed to perform at 1050 fps.
"What's the point of shooting a round at a reduced velocity knowing that isn't going to preform like it should?"
Because it still will be effective. It will hit like a sledgehammer.
In the .223 a 77 grain bullet wasn't designed to perform at 1050 fps either.
Will it still be effective FOR CERTAIN APPLICATIONS ? Again, absolutely.
Will it be the absolute do all, end all, ultimate, greatest possible thing in the world ?
No.
Does this mean it isn't worthwhile ?
No.
It is another tool in the toolbox. It gives you some options. It is fun to play with. It has definite practical applications. It is certainly worthwhile.
AND, a 9mm upper or a .22LR is no substitute for it.
"FWIW a standard 22 magnum 40 grain @ 1875 fps has 312ft/lb so none of the above are what I would call “powerful”.
See again, we are forgetting that with my subsonic .223 load the bullet is TWICE AS HEAVY as the .22 Mag bullet. It will have significantly more penetration.
Keep in mind that since WWII or possibly slightly before that time, one of the standard firearms for special ops people has been the High Standard semi-auto .22 pistol. We have all read numerous times about it's use by the OSS, CIA, and special ops people in Vietnam. We have all seen the pictures of one of those suppressed High Standard pistols hanging in Red Square after Francis Gary Power's U2 spy plane was shot down and he was captured carrying one.
We have to assume that if those guys carried them for so many years that they were at least moderately effective for what they did with them.
So now we take a rifle firing a bullet that is twice as heavy with possibly even a little more velocity (a little more). We have to assume it would be at least as effective. And, as an added bonus we don't need to carry a seperate gun. We simply use a different ammo in the rifle we are already carrying. (NOTE: I am not implying that a suppressed .223 rifle is a substitute for the suppressed .22pistol in all applications. This is just a comparison of the possible effectiveness of the bullet.)
In all the discussions I have had on this subject I must admit I never had anyone that thought that subsonic .223 was supposed to be "powerful" or that subsonic .223 was supposed to perform like full powered .223 ammo. It is painfully obvious that this isn't going to be the case. It is a reduced load. A significantly reduced load. However it is a load that is still more than enough for small game. It is also more than enough for careful precision shots at much larger targets under the right circumstances. If you have the element of surprise, and are capable of placing the shot exactly where it needs to go (such as the back of the head for instance) it is easily capable of downing much larger targets. Now if we were in that situation and we could have a much larger and more powerful weapon that we didn't have to worry about noise with; would we want it ? Of course. But the vast majority of the time we don't have the luxury of selecting weapons for each shot like we can with a set of golf clubs. We have one weapon and we need to make it as versitile as possible. We need to adapt. And this is where the subsonic .223 comes into play.
If you were looking for an inexpensive way to practice with your carbine you don't handload subsonic ammo. You buy a .22 LR upper.
Why ?
Because these two applications have absolutely nothing in common with each other and you use the right tool for the job.
If you are buying a weapon for a specific application like giving you the most power possible while still being relatively quiet then you go with something other than a .223.
But if the .223 is what you have. Or the .223 is a good choice for the majority of what you are going to need the rifle for BUT you might have a need, under certain circumstances for a very quiet shot out of that weapon. Then you tailor the ammo to that need rather than tailoring the weapon itself to that need.
Keep in mind that the 500 grain bullet wasn't designed to perform at 1050 fps.
"What's the point of shooting a round at a reduced velocity knowing that isn't going to preform like it should?"
Because it still will be effective. It will hit like a sledgehammer.
In the .223 a 77 grain bullet wasn't designed to perform at 1050 fps either.
Will it still be effective FOR CERTAIN APPLICATIONS ? Again, absolutely.
Will it be the absolute do all, end all, ultimate, greatest possible thing in the world ?
No.
Does this mean it isn't worthwhile ?
No.
It is another tool in the toolbox. It gives you some options. It is fun to play with. It has definite practical applications. It is certainly worthwhile.
AND, a 9mm upper or a .22LR is no substitute for it.
"FWIW a standard 22 magnum 40 grain @ 1875 fps has 312ft/lb so none of the above are what I would call “powerful”.
See again, we are forgetting that with my subsonic .223 load the bullet is TWICE AS HEAVY as the .22 Mag bullet. It will have significantly more penetration.
Keep in mind that since WWII or possibly slightly before that time, one of the standard firearms for special ops people has been the High Standard semi-auto .22 pistol. We have all read numerous times about it's use by the OSS, CIA, and special ops people in Vietnam. We have all seen the pictures of one of those suppressed High Standard pistols hanging in Red Square after Francis Gary Power's U2 spy plane was shot down and he was captured carrying one.
We have to assume that if those guys carried them for so many years that they were at least moderately effective for what they did with them.
So now we take a rifle firing a bullet that is twice as heavy with possibly even a little more velocity (a little more). We have to assume it would be at least as effective. And, as an added bonus we don't need to carry a seperate gun. We simply use a different ammo in the rifle we are already carrying. (NOTE: I am not implying that a suppressed .223 rifle is a substitute for the suppressed .22pistol in all applications. This is just a comparison of the possible effectiveness of the bullet.)
In all the discussions I have had on this subject I must admit I never had anyone that thought that subsonic .223 was supposed to be "powerful" or that subsonic .223 was supposed to perform like full powered .223 ammo. It is painfully obvious that this isn't going to be the case. It is a reduced load. A significantly reduced load. However it is a load that is still more than enough for small game. It is also more than enough for careful precision shots at much larger targets under the right circumstances. If you have the element of surprise, and are capable of placing the shot exactly where it needs to go (such as the back of the head for instance) it is easily capable of downing much larger targets. Now if we were in that situation and we could have a much larger and more powerful weapon that we didn't have to worry about noise with; would we want it ? Of course. But the vast majority of the time we don't have the luxury of selecting weapons for each shot like we can with a set of golf clubs. We have one weapon and we need to make it as versitile as possible. We need to adapt. And this is where the subsonic .223 comes into play.
If you were looking for an inexpensive way to practice with your carbine you don't handload subsonic ammo. You buy a .22 LR upper.
Why ?
Because these two applications have absolutely nothing in common with each other and you use the right tool for the job.
If you are buying a weapon for a specific application like giving you the most power possible while still being relatively quiet then you go with something other than a .223.
But if the .223 is what you have. Or the .223 is a good choice for the majority of what you are going to need the rifle for BUT you might have a need, under certain circumstances for a very quiet shot out of that weapon. Then you tailor the ammo to that need rather than tailoring the weapon itself to that need.
Last edited:
Nice post 444.
If one expects any bullet other than a hollow point with a big mouth or a soft point to expand at low velocities, then they may be disappointed. While a 223 rem may never beat the 22lr in the quiet department, it will always win out in power and maybe even accuracy. Correct me if I am wrong, but a 223 bullet poking a hole in any small game moving +900 fps is going to make it fall.
If a person needs lots of power, then the 510 whisper using 30 grains of H110 to push a 950 grain cast bullet 1050 fps (2335 ft-lbs) through a large can sounding like a car door slamming is something to think about. I have one chambered on a TC Encore, the shoulder pad is not optional if shooting more than three rounds as the carbine is only 7.5 pounds without the can.
If you want less noise, then the Quakenbush air rifle with a 182 grain ball at 845 fps (295 ft-lbs) is about the best you can do.
Ranb
If one expects any bullet other than a hollow point with a big mouth or a soft point to expand at low velocities, then they may be disappointed. While a 223 rem may never beat the 22lr in the quiet department, it will always win out in power and maybe even accuracy. Correct me if I am wrong, but a 223 bullet poking a hole in any small game moving +900 fps is going to make it fall.
If a person needs lots of power, then the 510 whisper using 30 grains of H110 to push a 950 grain cast bullet 1050 fps (2335 ft-lbs) through a large can sounding like a car door slamming is something to think about. I have one chambered on a TC Encore, the shoulder pad is not optional if shooting more than three rounds as the carbine is only 7.5 pounds without the can.
If you want less noise, then the Quakenbush air rifle with a 182 grain ball at 845 fps (295 ft-lbs) is about the best you can do.
Ranb
Last edited: