i have learned a lot just from the replies. you folks are a wealth of information. i was incorrect in using the term head space , my concern was the distance between the the bullet and the rifling of the barrel as well as the pressure in the case.i am loading Nosler AccuBond Bullets 55 grain. as with the ballistic tip i would assume that they would be pretty consistent. my cases are all trimmed to Nosler spec in their book. again Im just concerned and curious as to why i cant be more consistent in loading these rounds. being a novice hand loader you have given me a wealth of information and to try. this is why i joined this forum to learn thanks
.223 overall length
- Thread starter Pchris
- Start date
Pchris: First,Welcome! Yes,we will do what we can for you.
Warning! At some point,personalities will show up,and things can go in the weeds.The water can get very muddy.
In the mean time,here is something about your post I notice. This is not a flame job,its a concern.
You specified a Length Overall of 2,055,or something close.Thats not close to any cartridge case length,so I assume you do mean Length Over all.
The AR-15 magazine length is generally 2.260.That was the magazine length for the original 55 gr mil loads.I'm not sure what the military 55 gr LOA was,but I'd guess 2.230. If these numbers were critical to our discussion,I"D LOOK THEM UP....but for our purposes, I think your number of 2.055 is in error.
You mentioned using a Nosler 55 gr Accubond.I just went to Nosler's site.The smallest Accubond they make is a 25 cal 110 gr.
The point I'm trying to set up is about attention to detail. Its quite important reloading. Misreading your calipers could well be misreading your powder scale.
Loading small pistol primers in place of small rifle primers can spew hot gas in your face.
Slow down a bit. Focus. Exactly the right name for powders is critical. IMR 4895 is not H-4895. International Clays is not Clays.
What MIGHT be confusing your overall loaded length is a somewhat complex chainof events.
First,measure your sized brass length.Is it in spec? does it vary?. Consistent brass length is important.
When you seat your bullets,are you aware that most seater dies have a built in crimp function? They do.
Now,how did you set up your seater die relative to the shelholder? Contact?
If so,you are making a heavy crimp,which often collapses and bulges the case shoulder.Then your cartridges won't chamber and they get stuck.
But even if you backed the seater die off to a light crimp,variance in case length will vary crimp,and that will vary seating depth.
To get started,
1) Measure brass length. If it varies,or if its over length,trim to recommended "trim to" length.
2) Lightly chamfer the case necks,OD and ID
3)for now,lets not worry about crimping. Take a piece of trimmed brass,put it in your press Backyour die body at least one full turn up from the shell holder.Raise the ram,with the brass in the shellholder. Srew the die body down till you feel it contact the case.Back it off 1/8 turn and set the lock ring.
4) Brush your case necks with a nylon bore brush.RCBS makes a nice handle for this
5 Reset your seater stem to seat bullets to desired length.Look to your load manual.
IF your bullet has a cannelure,you might try seating to ALMOST,but not quite hide the cannelure.
I do not crimp my .223's. Folks argue about it.If you choose to crimp,and if your bullets have a cannelure,and if you seated to almost,but not quite hide the cannelure,you now have the option to run them through aLee factory crimp die.
See if any of that helps.
PS: A really important habit for a new loader to practice,every time!
Only one container of powder on the bench. The one you are loading. It may seem silly,but read the label out loud,check yout data,then look at the label and read it out loud again.
The error you can make that can hurt or kill you,or wreck a gun,is loading the wrong powder. Establish good habits to ensure that never happens.
Warning! At some point,personalities will show up,and things can go in the weeds.The water can get very muddy.
In the mean time,here is something about your post I notice. This is not a flame job,its a concern.
You specified a Length Overall of 2,055,or something close.Thats not close to any cartridge case length,so I assume you do mean Length Over all.
The AR-15 magazine length is generally 2.260.That was the magazine length for the original 55 gr mil loads.I'm not sure what the military 55 gr LOA was,but I'd guess 2.230. If these numbers were critical to our discussion,I"D LOOK THEM UP....but for our purposes, I think your number of 2.055 is in error.
You mentioned using a Nosler 55 gr Accubond.I just went to Nosler's site.The smallest Accubond they make is a 25 cal 110 gr.
The point I'm trying to set up is about attention to detail. Its quite important reloading. Misreading your calipers could well be misreading your powder scale.
Loading small pistol primers in place of small rifle primers can spew hot gas in your face.
Slow down a bit. Focus. Exactly the right name for powders is critical. IMR 4895 is not H-4895. International Clays is not Clays.
What MIGHT be confusing your overall loaded length is a somewhat complex chainof events.
First,measure your sized brass length.Is it in spec? does it vary?. Consistent brass length is important.
When you seat your bullets,are you aware that most seater dies have a built in crimp function? They do.
Now,how did you set up your seater die relative to the shelholder? Contact?
If so,you are making a heavy crimp,which often collapses and bulges the case shoulder.Then your cartridges won't chamber and they get stuck.
But even if you backed the seater die off to a light crimp,variance in case length will vary crimp,and that will vary seating depth.
To get started,
1) Measure brass length. If it varies,or if its over length,trim to recommended "trim to" length.
2) Lightly chamfer the case necks,OD and ID
3)for now,lets not worry about crimping. Take a piece of trimmed brass,put it in your press Backyour die body at least one full turn up from the shell holder.Raise the ram,with the brass in the shellholder. Srew the die body down till you feel it contact the case.Back it off 1/8 turn and set the lock ring.
4) Brush your case necks with a nylon bore brush.RCBS makes a nice handle for this
5 Reset your seater stem to seat bullets to desired length.Look to your load manual.
IF your bullet has a cannelure,you might try seating to ALMOST,but not quite hide the cannelure.
I do not crimp my .223's. Folks argue about it.If you choose to crimp,and if your bullets have a cannelure,and if you seated to almost,but not quite hide the cannelure,you now have the option to run them through aLee factory crimp die.
See if any of that helps.
PS: A really important habit for a new loader to practice,every time!
Only one container of powder on the bench. The one you are loading. It may seem silly,but read the label out loud,check yout data,then look at the label and read it out loud again.
The error you can make that can hurt or kill you,or wreck a gun,is loading the wrong powder. Establish good habits to ensure that never happens.
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Marco Califo
New member
Nosler 223 dimensions
Take it from Nosler:
https://load-data.nosler.com/load-data/223-remington/
Their load data includes an illustration of all cartridge deminsions. 40 gr Ballistic tips are loaded at 2.26" over all length.
Details and the understanding the correct meaning, and use, of terminology matter enormously.
Someone once said "You cannot even begin to learn something that you think you already know".
And someone else said "RTFM"
Read
The
Fine/Funny/Flipping/Freaking
Manuals.
Take it from Nosler:
https://load-data.nosler.com/load-data/223-remington/
Their load data includes an illustration of all cartridge deminsions. 40 gr Ballistic tips are loaded at 2.26" over all length.
Details and the understanding the correct meaning, and use, of terminology matter enormously.
Someone once said "You cannot even begin to learn something that you think you already know".
And someone else said "RTFM"
Read
The
Fine/Funny/Flipping/Freaking
Manuals.
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Are you sure?
For comparison, my fl die sets up like. Without a case. Screw in die until it touches the shellplate at the camover point.
Measure 3-5 fired cases. Take average base to shoulder datum..
FL size a fresh case. Measure base to datum. Adjust die until case is ~0.003" shorter.
A simpler method is to stick it in the gun and adjust the die until the bolt closes. Then add 1/8 turn tighter for variation.
When setting the lock ring, place a prepped case in the die and tighten lock ring with slight upward pressure.
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PChris spoke of being concerned about min/max and bullet distance to the lands and pressure. From that, I assumed his 2.055" number is from some kind of bullet comparator that measures off the ogive of the bullet instead of the tip, and that the min/max are the load data and not the lengths, as I don't recall a manual that lists more than one overall length per bullet per cartridge (the one they tested). The Nosler manual I have (#6) does not list even that, instead giving only the SAAMI maximum of 2.260". Their online load data does give tested Over-all Cartridge Length (OACL), just to add yet another set of initials to those in the image below.
PChris,
Some terminology may be useful.
If you have the Hornady OAL gauge, be aware that, despite its name, it does not measure overall length, but rather determines overall length indirectly via locating the ogive. You need to know how much tip length to add with your bullet to turn that measurement into the overall length. Or, just use your caliper by itself to measure the cartridge from end to end (overall length).
Overall length does have a minimum and a maximum in the SAAMI standard, but this is only to guarantee fit into and feeding from a magazine. It does not mean you cannot go outside that range if your gun likes it. It does not mean all bullets can be seated over the whole range without either falling out (short bullet at maximum length) or going in so deeply that the taper of the ogive starts below level with the mouth (long bullet at minimum length). You are expected to see what works best with your bullet, and, with very few exceptions, you don't seat the top end of the bullet bearing surface below flush with the mouth.
The SAAMI standard changed to allow deeper seating of the 223 Remington, taking the minimum overall length from 2.165" (1992 standard) to 2.125" (2015 Standard). The maximum is the same 2.260".
PChris,
Some terminology may be useful.
If you have the Hornady OAL gauge, be aware that, despite its name, it does not measure overall length, but rather determines overall length indirectly via locating the ogive. You need to know how much tip length to add with your bullet to turn that measurement into the overall length. Or, just use your caliper by itself to measure the cartridge from end to end (overall length).
Overall length does have a minimum and a maximum in the SAAMI standard, but this is only to guarantee fit into and feeding from a magazine. It does not mean you cannot go outside that range if your gun likes it. It does not mean all bullets can be seated over the whole range without either falling out (short bullet at maximum length) or going in so deeply that the taper of the ogive starts below level with the mouth (long bullet at minimum length). You are expected to see what works best with your bullet, and, with very few exceptions, you don't seat the top end of the bullet bearing surface below flush with the mouth.
The SAAMI standard changed to allow deeper seating of the 223 Remington, taking the minimum overall length from 2.165" (1992 standard) to 2.125" (2015 Standard). The maximum is the same 2.260".
Attachments
ammo.crafter
New member
223
std7mag is on the mark.
Get a good reloading book and read it COMPLETELY; cover-to-cover.
std7mag is on the mark.
Get a good reloading book and read it COMPLETELY; cover-to-cover.
Nathan
My instructions were about setting up the seating die,and backing the seater up enough to not use the crimp function of the seater die.
None of my post has anything to do with setting up the sizing die.
The method you describe to set the sizing die is one way to do it.I'm not saying it is wrong.
It involves the dies and the press components and the associated tolerances only.
One of the advantages of handloading is to be able to optimize ammo to a particular rifle. Methods of setting the sizing die using a fired case,a bushing gauge,a calipers,and a desired,measurable amount of change would be another approach.
If loading for multiple rifles,in theory,setting your sizing die so your brass ,after sizing,falls between the high/low limit steps on a bushing type case length gauge delivers ammo sized to SAAMI spec.
I use these methods now to minimize case stretch,extend case life,and minimize variation for consistent ammo. The gauge gives me a standard.
FWIW, I'd guess I loaded for about 35 years setting my dies by the method you describe,with no gauges. Then I moved up to using feeler gauges between the die body and shell holder to find what would just easily chamber,then.002 more clearance.That size feeler gauge went in the die box with that shellholder.
IMO,loading the way I do now is an advancement in my technique.
Hopefully,we keep learning and getting better.
Except the post is about SEATING length,not RESIZING length.
My instructions were about setting up the seating die,and backing the seater up enough to not use the crimp function of the seater die.
None of my post has anything to do with setting up the sizing die.
The method you describe to set the sizing die is one way to do it.I'm not saying it is wrong.
It involves the dies and the press components and the associated tolerances only.
One of the advantages of handloading is to be able to optimize ammo to a particular rifle. Methods of setting the sizing die using a fired case,a bushing gauge,a calipers,and a desired,measurable amount of change would be another approach.
If loading for multiple rifles,in theory,setting your sizing die so your brass ,after sizing,falls between the high/low limit steps on a bushing type case length gauge delivers ammo sized to SAAMI spec.
I use these methods now to minimize case stretch,extend case life,and minimize variation for consistent ammo. The gauge gives me a standard.
FWIW, I'd guess I loaded for about 35 years setting my dies by the method you describe,with no gauges. Then I moved up to using feeler gauges between the die body and shell holder to find what would just easily chamber,then.002 more clearance.That size feeler gauge went in the die box with that shellholder.
IMO,loading the way I do now is an advancement in my technique.
Hopefully,we keep learning and getting better.
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std7mag said:
Once the primer pocket crimp is removed, what's the difference? It's not like 7.62 vs. .308 where the military brass tends to be heavier and lower capacity. Indeed, if you scroll down this page to the weight and water capacity table, you actually find LC 5.56 is some of the lightest and highest capacity.