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.223 or 22-250 for deer
- Thread starter Deer hunter88
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With women and kids starting out taking a 300 yard shot I say no you are not mistaken. For 300 yard shots at deer I would use a larger caliber and definitely do not recommend a 243 unless that is all you have and are a skilled hunter.
Women and kids? As if they are less capable of learning to hoot than boys and men? Really, nobody should start out taking 300 yard shots..... but once thy have the fundamentals down and understand trajectory, 300 from a good solid field position isn't that hard, boy or girl, man or woman, with a .243.
Women and kids? As if they are less capable of learning to hoot than boys and men? Really, nobody should start out taking 300 yard shots..... but once thy have the fundamentals down and understand trajectory, 300 from a good solid field position isn't that hard, boy or girl, man or woman, with a .243.
You teach them your way and I'll teach them mine with proper expectations. Not a lot of chances for deer where I live where they are broadside and everyone has a perfect rest for 300 yard shots. We teach them to shoot first at modest ranges and 300 yards is a long shot. You don't get any bonus points for showing off how small a caliber you can use at long ranges. Not impressed.
Here's the thing with the 22 centerfires. Shooters are much more likely to be able to shoot them accurately than larger centerfires. If you were to gather a bunch of hunting guides together and ask them if too much gun or too little gun has caused them more headaches, overwhelmingly the response would be too much gun. I have seen more animals wounded as a result of botched shots with big centerfires than with smaller bores. It's as unethical to shoot badly with a 30-06 as it is with a 223, and based on my experience it happens more often. It's all about shot placement and bullet construction.
You teach them your way and I'll teach them mine with proper expectations.
Ah, the tyranny of low expectations.....
Not a lot of chances for deer where I live where they are broadside and everyone has a perfect rest for 300 yard shots.
Perfect does not exist this side of Heaven, but in the real world, a pretty solid position can be had just about just about anywhere, and quickly, with a set of shooting sticks, a m1907 style sling or both ..... and they take very little time to learn to use..... and when a deer is more than a hundred yards away, it is much less likely to spook, and you have plenty of time to get into that good position and wait until it's broadside and still..... we often hunt out of ground blinds, especially when the newest shooters are along, so there is always a solid rest available, and almost always time to use to use it. Of course we teach them to shoot at modest ranges first ..... but 300 yards is NOT long range under these conditions... with efficient bullets in flat shooting guns like the .243 or .270, trajectory or wind is barely a factor at 300 yards...... and certainly much less of a factor than recoil induced flinching is when new shooters are involved.....
You don't get any bonus points for showing off how small a caliber you can use at long ranges. Not impressed.
We don't hunt for points of any sort, but to fill our freezers for the year and test our skills ..... learn new ones...... I could care less if you are impressed..... so why do I post this? To dispel ignorant notions like "300 yards is a long shot" and "243Win is a tiny caliber and inadequate for deer on "long shots"" ..... but we have drifted from the OP ..... which was asking about .223 and .22-250 .... I think both will work alright at short range with the proper bullets and good placement. Nothing will work very well with poor placement.
@jimbob86 - They are not low expectations, they are reasonable expectations. There is no way I'm going to let a first time shooter have their first shot be at 300 yards on a deer. And unless it's a wall hanger there is really no need for one either as chances are you can close that distance. Come on man, it's just common sense, why are you arguing that point?
I absolutely agree with that point. The issue is you don't need to go from 11 back down to 1 with the smallest 22 caliber's if recoil is an issue. A 243 caliber or higher would be a much better choice if recoil is a problem. heck slap a muzzle brake on that 30-06 and you could shoot all day! I don't understand this obsession with smallest caliber's possible now days????
Here's the thing with the 22 centerfires. Shooters are much more likely to be able to shoot them accurately than larger centerfires. If you were to gather a bunch of hunting guides together and ask them if too much gun or too little gun has caused them more headaches, overwhelmingly the response would be too much gun. I have seen more animals wounded as a result of botched shots with big centerfires than with smaller bores. It's as unethical to shoot badly with a 30-06 as it is with a 223, and based on my experience it happens more often. It's all about shot placement and bullet construction.
I absolutely agree with that point. The issue is you don't need to go from 11 back down to 1 with the smallest 22 caliber's if recoil is an issue. A 243 caliber or higher would be a much better choice if recoil is a problem. heck slap a muzzle brake on that 30-06 and you could shoot all day! I don't understand this obsession with smallest caliber's possible now days????
@jimbob86 - They are not low expectations, they are reasonable expectations. There is no way I'm going to let a first time shooter have their first shot be at 300 yards on a deer. And unless it's a wall hanger there is really no need for one either as chances are you can close that distance. Come on man, it's just common sense, why are you arguing that point?
If you'd read the thread, you'd know that's not what I'm suggesting, nor what I've done.
And why would it matter if there was a wallhanger or a button buck involved?
As for closing the distance, there's no way to get closer to a deer in the middle of a cut alfalfa/ beanfield measuring 600 yards x 800 yards. You are not going to sneak up on them in daylight ..... with the kids, we do our best to sneak into the blinds before first light.... and with the rut on and temps low, deer generally wander by every couple of hours during the day..... it's fairly open country, and if one never learns to make good hits to the middle of those fields, there's going to be a lot of winters eating ghetto round steak instead of venison..... the ideal is to teach them to "shoot up to their rifle" from field positons..... but this is the internet, and everyone tends to take the most extreme view what the other guy is doing ..... you go ahead and put a muzzle brake on a 30-06 and hand it to a little kid if that works for you ..... best of luck with that.
If you'd read the thread, you'd know that's not what I'm suggesting, nor what I've done.
I read the thread and that is what you were inferring or why in the hell would you be arguing with me? I also take it you've never used a muzzle break as well? You know you can add them to other calibers as well right? I have one on a 7mm-08 that kicks less than a .223 with 120 grain bullets.
the ideal is to teach them to "shoot up to their rifle" from field positons..... but this is the internet, and everyone tends to take the most extreme view what the other guy is doing
Pot , kettle, black...Best of luck with those kid's first deer at 300 yard shots. I'm sure every one has hit the mark in your next post. I think you want to argue for the sake of arguing now. lol
Bullsqueeze. See post 54..... or maybe you readit and failed to comprehend.....I read the thread
ot , kettle, black...Best of luck with those kid's first deer at 300 yard shots. I'm sure every one has hit the mark in your next post. I think you want to argue for the sake of arguing now. lol
You keep telling me what I'm doing .... just to be arguing. None of my kids shot their first deer at 300, or have even attempted a 300 yard shot until they could consistently get hits on paper and milk jugs at that distance.... the youngest two are not cleared past 200 yet..... but we are working on that.
As for the muzzle brake onto an existing full size, medium bore rifle: what's that cost? Add to that that i does nothing to help the youngster carry and hold the adult sized gun ..... so add another pile of cash to shorten the length of pull and lighten the gun (if possible) to make handling easier for them..... and then when you lighten it, perceived recoil increases.... as it does when the gun gets louder for the shooter and everyone around them because of the increased muzzle blast with the brake ..... would it not be wiser to get them a rifle that fits them in the first place, in a chambering that will kill deer without beating the hell out of them? Then you'd have two rifles with some value, instead of one that's been butchered ...... But of course, you seem to be married to the idea that a .243 won't kill a deer at the extreme range of 300 yards, and is marginal at best for shorter shots ....whatever.
idea that a .243 won't kill a deer at the extreme range of 300 yards
Show me my post where I stated that the 243 is not good enough for a 300 yard shot? I said there are much better calibers for deer at long ranges. So getting a better rifle and putting a muzzle brake on it is not as economical as getting another bigger rifle later? Got it. BTW my 7mm-08 was $300 with a muzzle break that was $85. Cost is not an issue.
Who are these people all around you hunting that can't stand a rifle shot? It only effects you if standing 15 feet away to the side of the barrel at the range. Stop taking Internet misinformation. Now you are bringing costs and loudness into this equation LOL????
Please go be miserable to somewhere else.
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Show me my post where I stated that the 243 is not good enough for a 300 yard shot?
That was you in post 61. You infer it's pretty substandard.For 300 yard shots at deer I would use a larger caliber and definitely do not recommend a 243 unless that is all you have and are a skilled hunter.
I said there are much better calibers for deer at long ranges.
This is where I think we disagree most fundamentally: I fail to see how 300 yards is "long range" with a .243- fed BTSP ammo, zeroed at 235, MPBR is 275yards, and impact is only 4 1/2" below POA at 300. That's still holding in the hair, with room to spare. Ballistics for a 30-06 are worse, without resorting to very heavy (hard kicking) or very light, very fast (again with the increased recoil, and they'd be pretty explosive at shorter ranges) bullets....
Your answer to the problem is not the same as mine ..... and I explained my reasoning before.... won't bother again....
Who are these people all around you hunting that can't stand a rifle shot?
Little kids, and latemiddle aged to old men with significant hearing loss .... every one of us.....a couple of us that had their ears ringing for days 2 years ago when a kid touched off her 7-08 with the muzzle not completely outside the ground blind.....
... and I know all about the joys of muzzle brakes, in person, next to me on the range. I despise them.
Cheers.
Art Eatman
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Thread drift + getting personal = Yuck.
Enuf.
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