spacecoast
New member
Thanks Metal god, I appreciate the info.
.223 novice, need a little guidance
- Thread starter spacecoast
- Start date
spacecoast, just a reminder. With mixed range brass, separate makes of brass. Brass should be clean before sizing, makes for a better size & will keep your dies in good shape. Hand lube is fine, lube the case & neck, not the shoulder, inside the neck lightly with a Q-tip is good, just remember to remove the lube. Full length size your brass, measure length & trim if its at the max. I trim my brass every firing to the mid range listed for the case. On seating your primers you will feel them bottom,that's were you want to be , it takes a few until you get the feel. Vargets a popular powder for the 223 . Mid range in the load book is a safe place to start with Varget . Make your powder charge accurate. Seat your bullet to listed length in load book for that charge & your good to go. Check all your information & measurements twice. Take Your Time . You don't have to crimp your rounds. Hope I Helped
There is other stuff to cover, but for now just get familiar with this process.
There is other stuff to cover, but for now just get familiar with this process.
Last edited:
JeepHammer
Moderator
THIS IS MY OPINION. I need to post that since people flip out here when you suggest something other than the status quo.
----------------
Is the BARREL marked ".223 Rem Caliber" or is it marked "5.56 NATO"?
This will make the biggest difference in the bullet weight/length and propellant/charge weight/pressure you will be loading for.
A .223 Rem BARREL is NOT a 5.56 NATO barrel/chamber.
(doesn't matter what the lower receiver is stamped, the BARREL should be stamped somewhere forward of the front sight)
The chamber pressure should NOT exceed 55,000 PSI with a .223 Rem stamped barrel.
Chamber pressure of a 5.56 NATO barrel should not exceed 60,000 PSI.
Shooting rounds, new or reloaded, that are 5.56 NATO specification can blow a perfectly sound .223 Rem barrel/receiver into junk.
It's NOT the head stamp on the case, the cases are all pretty identical,
It's the burn rate of the propellant and the charge you use.
.223 Rem & 5.56 NATO cases are virtually identical, it's how you load that case will determine if it's a (Civilian) .223 Rem specification round,
Or a 5.56 NATO specification round.
.223 Rem specification rounds are perfectly safe in a 5.56 NATO barrel/chamber,
It's when you put a 5.56 NATO specification round, with 5,000 PSI maximum safe level into a .223 Rem chambered rifle you get into trouble.
Range brass is perfectly acceptable, ONCE YOU HAVE FULL LENGHT RESIZED IT.
You have no idea where most range brass came from, or what it was shot through...
Worn out, sloppy chambers will bloat the brass, it needs to be full length resized before you consider reloading it.
Some guys get away with just neck sizing AFTER they full length resize and fire it through THEIR SPECFIC RIFLE,
The idea is, once it's fired in their rifle, the brass more closely fits the chamber.
The jury is out on that one... Everyone has their own opinion.
The next thing to consider is,
Autoloaders often function/cycle better with full length resizing.
A chill went down my back when I read that!
If you are going to full length resize with a hand press, get a gym membership, you are going to need the upper body strength!
Nothing beats a bench mounted press when you are trying to resize bottle neck cases! New or used, they are everywhere and if you can afford to shoot & reload, it's a GREAT investment.
Lee is as good as any for common reloading, no issues there,
Just remember, the FIRST time you resize any brass for your rifle, it needs to be full length resized.
Winchester is as good as anything for primers, reliable, usually properly sized to fit common primer pockets.
Varget is a pretty consistent powder, I have zero issues with it.
You might want to reconsider the 62 grain bullets *IF* you have a .223 Rem chambered barrel,
Or at least be careful about how you set the bullet in the case.
There won't be ANY issue if the barrel is stamped 5.56 NATO, which uses a chamber that easily accommodates the longer/heavier 62 grain bullets.
The reasoning for this is simple,
The 'Leade' or 'Free Bore' in the NATO chamber is about twice as long as in a .223 Remington chamber.
You CAN stuff a long/heavy bullet into the rifling, essentially plugging the barrel.
Combine that with a 'Hot' load intended for a 5.56 NATO cartridge, and it can turn out bad... VERY BAD...
Because the CASE is the same size between the two, people don't pay attention to the chambering markings and interchange the rounds.
Traditionally, the .223 Rem was a smaller, light weight bullet, tight chamber, very accurate and a fast, flat shooting round to boot.
The military used longer, heavier bullets that tend sit too far forward in a .223 Chamber, essentially a big, heavy piece of copper/lead/steel plugging up the barrel...
Even though the cases are nearly identical, Each chamber/round has it's merits, but shouldn't be confused for interchangeable or best for accuracy.
You will find more 'Over Length' cases after you full length resize.
The cases are now bloated, over size for specification,
The shell holder ram will be under the round, so brass can't move that way.
The die will be pushing in the sides, and the brass has to go somewhere...
You will often find the cases get 'Longer' when they are resized, since 'UP' is the only way the brass can move when you push the sides back in where they belong.
Resize, THEN Trim...
What I would recommend for the novice is a cardboard box large enough to put 30 or 40 cases in the bottom LOOSELY, room to move around freely without stacking.
Then spray them with an ARESOL lubricant, pressure or pump spray,
Then shake them around.
They will rub the lube on each other, no rolling or turning cases, just shake the box.
Cardboard boxes are cheap!
The box will rub off the excess lube, this prevents 'Hydraulic' dents in the case necks when you resize.
Too much lube, and a tight resizing die, liquids don't compress, and it WILL dent the shoulder of the case.
If you see dents, TOO MUCH LUBE!
Check your cases for 'Berdan' primers!
Or use a die with a punch/expander ball that slips up when you hit a Berdan primed case or something is in the case, which occasionally happens with range brass.
There are two basic types of cases, 'Straight' or 'Boxer' primed, what you are used to seeing,
And when you look down in a Berdan primed case, you will see two little offset holes instead of the centered hole you see in 'Boxer' primed cases.
I don't even attempt to reload Berdan primed cases because they are a PITA to get the primer out, and Berdan primed cases OFTEN get left on ranges for the same reason.
Hand primer tool, machine primer tool, usually doesn't matter unless the cases have a primer crimp holding the primer in the case.
In that event, you will need a chamfering tool to cut the crimp out of the case to properly be able to insert the new primer.
There are also 'Swaging' tools, a type of press that simply forces the brass back and away from the primer pocket. I find these a pain in my back side.
MUCH faster and easier to cut the crimp away.
Check your barrel for .223 or 5.56, load accordingly.
NEVER, EVER trust one load data source! MISPRINTS ABOUND!
Every manufacturer has load data on the internet, most reloading places have free booklets that list the different powders, ect.
Check at least two sources to make sure what was printed is correct!
Again, this would depend on your chamber.
The 2.260 COL is mostly to fit in the magazine and to feed into the chamber correctly.
It's the 'Ogive' of the bullet that counts, the part of the bullet that gets big enough to contact the rifling.
Long/Heavy bullets are going to contact .223 chamber rifling faster than they will 5.56 NATO chamber rifling.
The point SMALLER than the rifling doesn't count since it's NEVER going to contact the rifling.
-----
The 'Crimp Groove' is called a 'Cannelure'.
Keep in mind, just because a bullet has a Cannelure, it does NOT mean you MUST crimp, just that there is a place FOR a crimp if you choose to use one.
Bolt rifle guys rarely choose to crimp, they simply don't bang the bullet back into the case when they chamber the round.
The biggest exception to that is heavy recoil will sometimes slide the bullet back into the case.
Autoloader guys sometimes use a crimp for a couple of different reasons...
One is to keep the autoloading process from jamming the bullet back into the case, which happens quite a bit.
If you find you NEED a crimp, SNEAK UP ON THE CRIMP!
A little crimp, test, a little more crimp, test, until the issues you were having stop happening.
Crimps work the brass at the case mouth REALLY HARD, and that can cause a crack much sooner than it would with no crimp,
The harder the crimp, the sooner the case cracks in my experience.
That's going to serve you well!
ACCURACY IS ENTIRELY UP TO THE MARKSMAN BEHIND THE RIFLE!
I can give you a couple of ideas...
You have a FAST twist rate barrel, that is REALLY going to spin the bullet.
Smaller, thin jacketed 'Varmint' bullets might come apart from the spinning, or the thin jacket scoring from the rifling might cut through the jacket creating 'Flyers', strips of copper that peel back and ruin accuracy.
I usually find best accuracy with 'Varmint' bullets in fast barrels about 55 Grains. Others will argue this...
Keep the chamber pressure/propellant charges REASONABLE,
Faster isn't always better!
That's a REALLY fast twist 'Nut' you have there, you CAN push the bullet so hard through that barrel the rifling will strip the copper off the outside and not spin the bullet correctly.
Punching holes in paper @ 100 yards doesn't require a heavyweight bullet.
I would venture to say the lightest bullet will punch a hole in paper.
Keep All Other Things Consistent, mess with the charges a little, see if your groups tighten up before you switch to a different ANYTHING, bullet, primer, powder, ect.
Make ONE change at a time so you know what is different if the groups get tighter or larger.
And the most important thing you can have is an ACCURATE LOAD BOOK!
Keep track of each load, powder, charge weight, bullet weight and shape, brands of bullets, primers, ect.
Once you build that data base it will save you a TON of time when you try something new.
I still have load books going back 40 years for components that aren't made anymore, and they still come in handy when I run into something similar.
Most propellant manufacturers will say their 'New' propellant is 'Similar' to this or that... If it's 'Similar' then I've got MORE than a starting point.
Above all, BE SAFE!
You can get a new rifle, you can't get new eyes, fingers, ect.
Original equipment is proprietary, and you can't find replacements!
----------------
Is the BARREL marked ".223 Rem Caliber" or is it marked "5.56 NATO"?
This will make the biggest difference in the bullet weight/length and propellant/charge weight/pressure you will be loading for.
A .223 Rem BARREL is NOT a 5.56 NATO barrel/chamber.
(doesn't matter what the lower receiver is stamped, the BARREL should be stamped somewhere forward of the front sight)
The chamber pressure should NOT exceed 55,000 PSI with a .223 Rem stamped barrel.
Chamber pressure of a 5.56 NATO barrel should not exceed 60,000 PSI.
Shooting rounds, new or reloaded, that are 5.56 NATO specification can blow a perfectly sound .223 Rem barrel/receiver into junk.
It's NOT the head stamp on the case, the cases are all pretty identical,
It's the burn rate of the propellant and the charge you use.
.223 Rem & 5.56 NATO cases are virtually identical, it's how you load that case will determine if it's a (Civilian) .223 Rem specification round,
Or a 5.56 NATO specification round.
.223 Rem specification rounds are perfectly safe in a 5.56 NATO barrel/chamber,
It's when you put a 5.56 NATO specification round, with 5,000 PSI maximum safe level into a .223 Rem chambered rifle you get into trouble.
Range brass is perfectly acceptable, ONCE YOU HAVE FULL LENGHT RESIZED IT.
You have no idea where most range brass came from, or what it was shot through...
Worn out, sloppy chambers will bloat the brass, it needs to be full length resized before you consider reloading it.
Some guys get away with just neck sizing AFTER they full length resize and fire it through THEIR SPECFIC RIFLE,
The idea is, once it's fired in their rifle, the brass more closely fits the chamber.
The jury is out on that one... Everyone has their own opinion.
The next thing to consider is,
Autoloaders often function/cycle better with full length resizing.
A chill went down my back when I read that!
If you are going to full length resize with a hand press, get a gym membership, you are going to need the upper body strength!
Nothing beats a bench mounted press when you are trying to resize bottle neck cases! New or used, they are everywhere and if you can afford to shoot & reload, it's a GREAT investment.
Lee is as good as any for common reloading, no issues there,
Just remember, the FIRST time you resize any brass for your rifle, it needs to be full length resized.
Winchester is as good as anything for primers, reliable, usually properly sized to fit common primer pockets.
Varget is a pretty consistent powder, I have zero issues with it.
You might want to reconsider the 62 grain bullets *IF* you have a .223 Rem chambered barrel,
Or at least be careful about how you set the bullet in the case.
There won't be ANY issue if the barrel is stamped 5.56 NATO, which uses a chamber that easily accommodates the longer/heavier 62 grain bullets.
The reasoning for this is simple,
The 'Leade' or 'Free Bore' in the NATO chamber is about twice as long as in a .223 Remington chamber.
You CAN stuff a long/heavy bullet into the rifling, essentially plugging the barrel.
Combine that with a 'Hot' load intended for a 5.56 NATO cartridge, and it can turn out bad... VERY BAD...
Because the CASE is the same size between the two, people don't pay attention to the chambering markings and interchange the rounds.
Traditionally, the .223 Rem was a smaller, light weight bullet, tight chamber, very accurate and a fast, flat shooting round to boot.
The military used longer, heavier bullets that tend sit too far forward in a .223 Chamber, essentially a big, heavy piece of copper/lead/steel plugging up the barrel...
Even though the cases are nearly identical, Each chamber/round has it's merits, but shouldn't be confused for interchangeable or best for accuracy.
You will find more 'Over Length' cases after you full length resize.
The cases are now bloated, over size for specification,
The shell holder ram will be under the round, so brass can't move that way.
The die will be pushing in the sides, and the brass has to go somewhere...
You will often find the cases get 'Longer' when they are resized, since 'UP' is the only way the brass can move when you push the sides back in where they belong.
Resize, THEN Trim...
What I would recommend for the novice is a cardboard box large enough to put 30 or 40 cases in the bottom LOOSELY, room to move around freely without stacking.
Then spray them with an ARESOL lubricant, pressure or pump spray,
Then shake them around.
They will rub the lube on each other, no rolling or turning cases, just shake the box.
Cardboard boxes are cheap!
The box will rub off the excess lube, this prevents 'Hydraulic' dents in the case necks when you resize.
Too much lube, and a tight resizing die, liquids don't compress, and it WILL dent the shoulder of the case.
If you see dents, TOO MUCH LUBE!
Check your cases for 'Berdan' primers!
Or use a die with a punch/expander ball that slips up when you hit a Berdan primed case or something is in the case, which occasionally happens with range brass.
There are two basic types of cases, 'Straight' or 'Boxer' primed, what you are used to seeing,
And when you look down in a Berdan primed case, you will see two little offset holes instead of the centered hole you see in 'Boxer' primed cases.
I don't even attempt to reload Berdan primed cases because they are a PITA to get the primer out, and Berdan primed cases OFTEN get left on ranges for the same reason.
Hand primer tool, machine primer tool, usually doesn't matter unless the cases have a primer crimp holding the primer in the case.
In that event, you will need a chamfering tool to cut the crimp out of the case to properly be able to insert the new primer.
There are also 'Swaging' tools, a type of press that simply forces the brass back and away from the primer pocket. I find these a pain in my back side.
MUCH faster and easier to cut the crimp away.
Check your barrel for .223 or 5.56, load accordingly.
NEVER, EVER trust one load data source! MISPRINTS ABOUND!
Every manufacturer has load data on the internet, most reloading places have free booklets that list the different powders, ect.
Check at least two sources to make sure what was printed is correct!
Again, this would depend on your chamber.
The 2.260 COL is mostly to fit in the magazine and to feed into the chamber correctly.
It's the 'Ogive' of the bullet that counts, the part of the bullet that gets big enough to contact the rifling.
Long/Heavy bullets are going to contact .223 chamber rifling faster than they will 5.56 NATO chamber rifling.
The point SMALLER than the rifling doesn't count since it's NEVER going to contact the rifling.
-----
The 'Crimp Groove' is called a 'Cannelure'.
Keep in mind, just because a bullet has a Cannelure, it does NOT mean you MUST crimp, just that there is a place FOR a crimp if you choose to use one.
Bolt rifle guys rarely choose to crimp, they simply don't bang the bullet back into the case when they chamber the round.
The biggest exception to that is heavy recoil will sometimes slide the bullet back into the case.
Autoloader guys sometimes use a crimp for a couple of different reasons...
One is to keep the autoloading process from jamming the bullet back into the case, which happens quite a bit.
If you find you NEED a crimp, SNEAK UP ON THE CRIMP!
A little crimp, test, a little more crimp, test, until the issues you were having stop happening.
Crimps work the brass at the case mouth REALLY HARD, and that can cause a crack much sooner than it would with no crimp,
The harder the crimp, the sooner the case cracks in my experience.
That's going to serve you well!
ACCURACY IS ENTIRELY UP TO THE MARKSMAN BEHIND THE RIFLE!
I can give you a couple of ideas...
You have a FAST twist rate barrel, that is REALLY going to spin the bullet.
Smaller, thin jacketed 'Varmint' bullets might come apart from the spinning, or the thin jacket scoring from the rifling might cut through the jacket creating 'Flyers', strips of copper that peel back and ruin accuracy.
I usually find best accuracy with 'Varmint' bullets in fast barrels about 55 Grains. Others will argue this...
Keep the chamber pressure/propellant charges REASONABLE,
Faster isn't always better!
That's a REALLY fast twist 'Nut' you have there, you CAN push the bullet so hard through that barrel the rifling will strip the copper off the outside and not spin the bullet correctly.
Punching holes in paper @ 100 yards doesn't require a heavyweight bullet.
I would venture to say the lightest bullet will punch a hole in paper.
Keep All Other Things Consistent, mess with the charges a little, see if your groups tighten up before you switch to a different ANYTHING, bullet, primer, powder, ect.
Make ONE change at a time so you know what is different if the groups get tighter or larger.
And the most important thing you can have is an ACCURATE LOAD BOOK!
Keep track of each load, powder, charge weight, bullet weight and shape, brands of bullets, primers, ect.
Once you build that data base it will save you a TON of time when you try something new.
I still have load books going back 40 years for components that aren't made anymore, and they still come in handy when I run into something similar.
Most propellant manufacturers will say their 'New' propellant is 'Similar' to this or that... If it's 'Similar' then I've got MORE than a starting point.
Above all, BE SAFE!
You can get a new rifle, you can't get new eyes, fingers, ect.
Original equipment is proprietary, and you can't find replacements!
spacecoast
New member
JeepHammer, thanks for a long and thoughtful reply.
Yes, it's a 5.56 barrel.
I definitely favor consistency over speed, so I don't see myself pushing anywhere near max. chamber pressures.
I'll be full length resizing everything.
So far the hand press has been fine. In fact, the .223 resize/deprime is quite a bit easier than .357 or .44 mag brass.
Thanks for the tip on lubing with a spray bottle. I agree, the finger method is a pain.
I have factory 55 and 62 grain rounds to try in addition to my reloads. I'll post my results once I've been able to do some shooting.
Yes, it's a 5.56 barrel.
I definitely favor consistency over speed, so I don't see myself pushing anywhere near max. chamber pressures.
I'll be full length resizing everything.
So far the hand press has been fine. In fact, the .223 resize/deprime is quite a bit easier than .357 or .44 mag brass.
Thanks for the tip on lubing with a spray bottle. I agree, the finger method is a pain.
I have factory 55 and 62 grain rounds to try in addition to my reloads. I'll post my results once I've been able to do some shooting.
JeepHammer
Moderator
5.56 chambers will swallow anything short of maybe '.223 Wylde' prepared rounds, there would be excessive freebore/leade issues with a Wylde round.
I'm sure a bunch will argue this,
But I've found the light weight bullets, 30, 35, 40, 45, are mostly for .223 Rem chambers with shorter chamber leade/freebore , and 'Slower' rifling twists they fit better, give good results, and the slower rate barrels (1/14", 1/12", 1/10") all give pretty good right out of the box.
The intermediate size/weight bullets work in both barrels, although you will be getting tight in a .223 Rem chamber with 50, 52, 55 grain bullets.
Most people actually look for 'Tight', less freebore/leade which often leads to increased accuracy, all other things being constant.
The longer/heavier bullets (60, 62, 65, and up), (If they are NOT 'Varmint' or 'Match' bullets with a ogive that is pushed back some in comparison to the standard FMJ bullets), do best with the longer leade/freebore in 5.56 NATO chambers.
The bullet/cartridge simply fits better in the chamber, again, closing up a little of the freebore/leade with a slightly longer bullet.
Everyone has different experiences with different particular rifles, but this is my GENERAL experience.
--------------
That heavy, sticky lube is a mess to deal with, it's really good at hydraulic dents the case necks, and it likes to plug up the vent holes in the resizing dies.
Plus, it's slow...
Some guys get away with 'Cooking Spray, Generic' as a cost saver, but I've found the cooking sprays sometimes like to speed up corrosion on the brass.
You can't beat the speed of a light weight 'Spray' lube, and the cost of a cardboard box is PERFECT! Free is ALWAYS good!
I catch fire and brimstone every time I post this...
Every time I full length size, I trim. Some don't and throw a fit when I even suggest trimming...
Two things to keep in mind when you are making the decision to trim or not,
1. You are shooting a 5.56 NATO chamber, a little 'Excess' length isn't going to make or break the round, and it's going to have very little to do with accuracy in a NATO chamber.
2. Hand trimming is a slow, mostly mind numbing, incredibly time consuming and tedious process since to do it correctly, you must do 5 separate functions, and mess with loose tools.
1. Gauge the raw, resized case,
2. Trim To Length,
3. Deburr the inside of the case mouth,
4. Deburr the outside of the case mouth,
5. Gauge again.
Then there is keeping up with adjustments on the trimmer, dull blades, the reason for the second pass through the gauge.
If you do very many cases, I would suggest a power case trimmer,
Power source can be as simple as a hand drill...
Three cuts at once, length, inside and outside tapers/deburring at the same time,
And since most of the power trimmers INDEX off the taper of case, the 'Datum' point, it's seriously fast! 2 seconds and done!
There are lots of 'Powered' prep centers out there that have all the spinning tools,
I've gone through a bunch of them, you are still back to a MANUAL trimmer slowing things down...
And a datum line trimmer stops all the messing with deburring, gauging at all, every case is as uniform as you can hope for.
Prices are all over the place, from shy of $100 to well over $500
Some images,
http://i1298.photobucket.com/albums/ag58/JeepHammer1/TrimIt_zpshqi6wktx.jpg
http://i1298.photobucket.com/albums/ag58/JeepHammer1/LittleCrow_zpswb4ohigm.jpg
http://i1298.photobucket.com/albums/ag58/JeepHammer1/Frankfort_zpsc3vlcte8.jpg
I'm particularly fond of the 'Trim It II' since it's adjustable for several size cases.
I punch out a TON of .223/5.56 & .308 cases, and it's quick/easy to adjust for about ANY case. The cost is a little high, but very reasonable for the quality of the tool.
I'm sure a bunch will argue this,
But I've found the light weight bullets, 30, 35, 40, 45, are mostly for .223 Rem chambers with shorter chamber leade/freebore , and 'Slower' rifling twists they fit better, give good results, and the slower rate barrels (1/14", 1/12", 1/10") all give pretty good right out of the box.
The intermediate size/weight bullets work in both barrels, although you will be getting tight in a .223 Rem chamber with 50, 52, 55 grain bullets.
Most people actually look for 'Tight', less freebore/leade which often leads to increased accuracy, all other things being constant.
The longer/heavier bullets (60, 62, 65, and up), (If they are NOT 'Varmint' or 'Match' bullets with a ogive that is pushed back some in comparison to the standard FMJ bullets), do best with the longer leade/freebore in 5.56 NATO chambers.
The bullet/cartridge simply fits better in the chamber, again, closing up a little of the freebore/leade with a slightly longer bullet.
Everyone has different experiences with different particular rifles, but this is my GENERAL experience.
--------------
That heavy, sticky lube is a mess to deal with, it's really good at hydraulic dents the case necks, and it likes to plug up the vent holes in the resizing dies.
Plus, it's slow...
Some guys get away with 'Cooking Spray, Generic' as a cost saver, but I've found the cooking sprays sometimes like to speed up corrosion on the brass.
You can't beat the speed of a light weight 'Spray' lube, and the cost of a cardboard box is PERFECT! Free is ALWAYS good!
I catch fire and brimstone every time I post this...
Every time I full length size, I trim. Some don't and throw a fit when I even suggest trimming...
Two things to keep in mind when you are making the decision to trim or not,
1. You are shooting a 5.56 NATO chamber, a little 'Excess' length isn't going to make or break the round, and it's going to have very little to do with accuracy in a NATO chamber.
2. Hand trimming is a slow, mostly mind numbing, incredibly time consuming and tedious process since to do it correctly, you must do 5 separate functions, and mess with loose tools.
1. Gauge the raw, resized case,
2. Trim To Length,
3. Deburr the inside of the case mouth,
4. Deburr the outside of the case mouth,
5. Gauge again.
Then there is keeping up with adjustments on the trimmer, dull blades, the reason for the second pass through the gauge.
If you do very many cases, I would suggest a power case trimmer,
Power source can be as simple as a hand drill...
Three cuts at once, length, inside and outside tapers/deburring at the same time,
And since most of the power trimmers INDEX off the taper of case, the 'Datum' point, it's seriously fast! 2 seconds and done!
There are lots of 'Powered' prep centers out there that have all the spinning tools,
I've gone through a bunch of them, you are still back to a MANUAL trimmer slowing things down...
And a datum line trimmer stops all the messing with deburring, gauging at all, every case is as uniform as you can hope for.
Prices are all over the place, from shy of $100 to well over $500
Some images,
http://i1298.photobucket.com/albums/ag58/JeepHammer1/TrimIt_zpshqi6wktx.jpg
http://i1298.photobucket.com/albums/ag58/JeepHammer1/LittleCrow_zpswb4ohigm.jpg
http://i1298.photobucket.com/albums/ag58/JeepHammer1/Frankfort_zpsc3vlcte8.jpg
I'm particularly fond of the 'Trim It II' since it's adjustable for several size cases.
I punch out a TON of .223/5.56 & .308 cases, and it's quick/easy to adjust for about ANY case. The cost is a little high, but very reasonable for the quality of the tool.
Last edited:
Jeep hammer :
You talk as if you post more on other forums then here at TFL . You've now mention a few time how people give you a hard time about things you post . you're not going to get a lot of that here . The mods run a pretty tight ship over here . I've not seen anything over the top from you as of yet . The only thing I see that you're posting that does not seem to have any relevance to this thread is a lot of talk about 223 Rem chambers . The OP does not have one and most AR's won't either .
Do you post over on calguns very often . I see a lot attitude over there with little substance .
You talk as if you post more on other forums then here at TFL . You've now mention a few time how people give you a hard time about things you post . you're not going to get a lot of that here . The mods run a pretty tight ship over here . I've not seen anything over the top from you as of yet . The only thing I see that you're posting that does not seem to have any relevance to this thread is a lot of talk about 223 Rem chambers . The OP does not have one and most AR's won't either .
Do you post over on calguns very often . I see a lot attitude over there with little substance .
JeepHammer
Moderator
I'm mostly on the builders guild, I only post on a couple of these open forums.
I just had a crap fight with a guy on a little firearms section of a forum that wasn't dedicated to firearms.
I laid hands on 55 gallon barrels of military brass & some open range brass, and was considering selling some reconditioned brass (40K brass to a barrel, 17 barrels),
It was the usual argument, "You don't have to full length resized", "There is a difference in the cases", "You don't have to anneal" sort of thing.
Lots of insults, name calling, "I do it this way" sorts of things.
Lots of wild claims about shooting 900 yards and keeping a 3" groups...
Couldn't keep 'Reconditioned, Once Fired Brass' & the brass he neck sizes for HIS rifle straight...
I talk a lot about .223 Rem simply because it shares a case with the 5.56.
Since the two CASES interchange, and this is a RELOADING forum,
I just want to be clear about load data for each round.
With a 5,000 PSI or greater difference in pressure, and the potential for driving chamber pressures to the moon with a big, heavy bullet shoved into a .223 Chamber right up against the rifling, I don't want any 'Issues' from something *I* might have posted.
I've got more than one load manual that DOES NOT differentiate between load data for .223 vs 5.56, mostly those booklets from powder manufacturers,
My early Speer/RCBS manuals don't differentiate either.
NRA Handloading manual says there is a SAAMI warning issued, but doesn't list separate data for 5.56.
Probably adds to the confusion...
Add that to the fact that people asking basic questions are often novices to hand loading, and I thought I'd just be clear about what barrel/chamber they were working with before giving data on loads.
I don't want to be a buzz kill, or preacher, but I was standing next to a really good friend when his rifle turned into high velocity scrap metal.
He wasn't seriously hurt, but it was a wake up call since I was doing exactly the same thing he was at the time.
I just had a crap fight with a guy on a little firearms section of a forum that wasn't dedicated to firearms.
I laid hands on 55 gallon barrels of military brass & some open range brass, and was considering selling some reconditioned brass (40K brass to a barrel, 17 barrels),
It was the usual argument, "You don't have to full length resized", "There is a difference in the cases", "You don't have to anneal" sort of thing.
Lots of insults, name calling, "I do it this way" sorts of things.
Lots of wild claims about shooting 900 yards and keeping a 3" groups...
Couldn't keep 'Reconditioned, Once Fired Brass' & the brass he neck sizes for HIS rifle straight...
I talk a lot about .223 Rem simply because it shares a case with the 5.56.
Since the two CASES interchange, and this is a RELOADING forum,
I just want to be clear about load data for each round.
With a 5,000 PSI or greater difference in pressure, and the potential for driving chamber pressures to the moon with a big, heavy bullet shoved into a .223 Chamber right up against the rifling, I don't want any 'Issues' from something *I* might have posted.
I've got more than one load manual that DOES NOT differentiate between load data for .223 vs 5.56, mostly those booklets from powder manufacturers,
My early Speer/RCBS manuals don't differentiate either.
NRA Handloading manual says there is a SAAMI warning issued, but doesn't list separate data for 5.56.
Probably adds to the confusion...
Add that to the fact that people asking basic questions are often novices to hand loading, and I thought I'd just be clear about what barrel/chamber they were working with before giving data on loads.
I don't want to be a buzz kill, or preacher, but I was standing next to a really good friend when his rifle turned into high velocity scrap metal.
He wasn't seriously hurt, but it was a wake up call since I was doing exactly the same thing he was at the time.
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JeepHammer:Welcome!
I do have a different point of view on some things you have said.
But we can respectfully discuss it.
I do agree there are some differences in chambering 5.56 vs 223.And variants such as the Wylde.Its mostly about A) bullet profile/leade/throat,and B)Accuracy(tighter) versus military reliability(looser).Generally,.223 will be twisted for lighter bullets,and will be throated for them,too.
And I agree seating into the rifling vs some bullet jump makes a difference in pressure.
Where we disagree is in the difference in the max pressure between 5.56 and .223.Bear with me a second.
5.56 pressure designation is a NATO spec.It is done by a CIP method.This process is different than the SAAMI method.They are two different processes and two different scales.They do not line up.
Here is a link to an informative article:
http://ballistictools.com/articles/5.56-vs-.223-myths-and-facts.php
I will suggest some more to consider.
Certainly an AR type rifle can be blown up via a handloading error.No argument.
But I will suggest that if you are using a rifle powder of an appropriate burn rate,and if there is not an out of battery discharge,it would be unlikely to blow up a rifle with an overcharge.
I'll agree you can open up a primer pocket,wide open.You might blow a magazine out.
But a .223/5.56 case just does not hold that much powder.In many cases,the "max" charge is determined by compressed load.
If a max safe load is 23.5 gr of Boomflash powder,you might be able to get 26 gr of Boomflash in the case,und still seat a bullet.You might have the primer fall out.You might blow a primer.You might seriously stick a case and tear off the rim.
But if you turn an AR into flying pieces of metal,there is something else going on.
If it is not an out of battery,I'd look to bore obstruction or most likely,wrong powder was loaded somehow.
A .223 case of handgun powder will wreck a rifle.
We may disagree,and that is Ok.
I do have a different point of view on some things you have said.
But we can respectfully discuss it.
I do agree there are some differences in chambering 5.56 vs 223.And variants such as the Wylde.Its mostly about A) bullet profile/leade/throat,and B)Accuracy(tighter) versus military reliability(looser).Generally,.223 will be twisted for lighter bullets,and will be throated for them,too.
And I agree seating into the rifling vs some bullet jump makes a difference in pressure.
Where we disagree is in the difference in the max pressure between 5.56 and .223.Bear with me a second.
5.56 pressure designation is a NATO spec.It is done by a CIP method.This process is different than the SAAMI method.They are two different processes and two different scales.They do not line up.
Here is a link to an informative article:
http://ballistictools.com/articles/5.56-vs-.223-myths-and-facts.php
I will suggest some more to consider.
Certainly an AR type rifle can be blown up via a handloading error.No argument.
But I will suggest that if you are using a rifle powder of an appropriate burn rate,and if there is not an out of battery discharge,it would be unlikely to blow up a rifle with an overcharge.
I'll agree you can open up a primer pocket,wide open.You might blow a magazine out.
But a .223/5.56 case just does not hold that much powder.In many cases,the "max" charge is determined by compressed load.
If a max safe load is 23.5 gr of Boomflash powder,you might be able to get 26 gr of Boomflash in the case,und still seat a bullet.You might have the primer fall out.You might blow a primer.You might seriously stick a case and tear off the rim.
But if you turn an AR into flying pieces of metal,there is something else going on.
If it is not an out of battery,I'd look to bore obstruction or most likely,wrong powder was loaded somehow.
A .223 case of handgun powder will wreck a rifle.
We may disagree,and that is Ok.
My last comment leads to this one for the Op.
You are an experienced pistol reloader,beginning on 223?
Forgive me if I remind you of something you already know.
A) It is not good practice to leave powder in the hopper.It may deteriorate in the light,and its not good for the hopper,but worse,it can be mis-identified.
You never want to get handgun powder in a rifle load(unless its a sub-load)
B) Only one powder container on the bench.Read the label outloud,twice,before you pour it in the hopper.
With a handgun,we are more concerned about the double charge.Not likely in a rifle.
But the wrong powder,is a wreck
Be careful about how you organize your primers.Pistol primers in your .223/5,56 will pierce.It does bad things.The disc of metal enters the bolt,along with gas.Bolt face,flash hole,and firing pin tip get gas erosion.
Firing pin may get stuck forward.That can cause out of battery ignition.That is bad.
You are an experienced pistol reloader,beginning on 223?
Forgive me if I remind you of something you already know.
A) It is not good practice to leave powder in the hopper.It may deteriorate in the light,and its not good for the hopper,but worse,it can be mis-identified.
You never want to get handgun powder in a rifle load(unless its a sub-load)
B) Only one powder container on the bench.Read the label outloud,twice,before you pour it in the hopper.
With a handgun,we are more concerned about the double charge.Not likely in a rifle.
But the wrong powder,is a wreck
Be careful about how you organize your primers.Pistol primers in your .223/5,56 will pierce.It does bad things.The disc of metal enters the bolt,along with gas.Bolt face,flash hole,and firing pin tip get gas erosion.
Firing pin may get stuck forward.That can cause out of battery ignition.That is bad.
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spacecoast
New member
No hopper here. I dip everything. The 1.6cc dipper in this case averages 22.8 grains of Varget.
With the 62gr Armscor I run:
25.7gr Varget
CCI #400 small rifle
2.250 over all length
This results in 2921fps with a standard deviation of 22fps
This is from a 20" 1 in 7 barrel.
I had some problems with Winchester primers developing pin holes in the center of the firing pin divot,(eroding the center of the firing pin) so I switched to the CCI.
Now I tend to run H335 or Tac powder with a CCI #450 small rifle magnum primer or a CCI #41 Nato small rifle primer.
The Winchester primers were giving me horribly inconsistent velocities with the H335 or Tac. They were also still getting pin holes even at starting powder charges.
CCI #400 were an improvement on the standard deviation, but then I read a reloading manual that insisted on using a magnum primer with fine ball powder for better ignition.
Varget is not a fine ball powder so I use the #400 primers.
Don't know what is wrong with the Win primers, I used to use them exclusively for the last 20 years.
P.S. I have around 3500 Winchester small rifle primers for sale/trade for anyone in central/eastern MT, if anybody wants them.
25.7gr Varget
CCI #400 small rifle
2.250 over all length
This results in 2921fps with a standard deviation of 22fps
This is from a 20" 1 in 7 barrel.
I had some problems with Winchester primers developing pin holes in the center of the firing pin divot,(eroding the center of the firing pin) so I switched to the CCI.
Now I tend to run H335 or Tac powder with a CCI #450 small rifle magnum primer or a CCI #41 Nato small rifle primer.
The Winchester primers were giving me horribly inconsistent velocities with the H335 or Tac. They were also still getting pin holes even at starting powder charges.
CCI #400 were an improvement on the standard deviation, but then I read a reloading manual that insisted on using a magnum primer with fine ball powder for better ignition.
Varget is not a fine ball powder so I use the #400 primers.
Don't know what is wrong with the Win primers, I used to use them exclusively for the last 20 years.
P.S. I have around 3500 Winchester small rifle primers for sale/trade for anyone in central/eastern MT, if anybody wants them.
The only thing I'D add to advice for the OP is, the closer you get to max charges, the smaller the increments of charge weight increase should be. With .223, when I am within 1 full grain of maximum (roughly 4%), I increase charge weights by no more than 0.2 gr., and usually by 0.1gr. Perhaps this has already been said, but I didn't see it.
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JeepHammer
Moderator
I follow, and I've seen the article you posted.
I've also seen 3 rifles destroyed, one 10 feet beside me.
Second, this is a 'Novice' loader,
I'm not about to throw out ANYTHING that might cause any issues for him.
He will learn at his own pace, ask questions as he finds new loads or issues.
The link you posted is commonly quoted, but there are a BUNCH of other sites, including the SAAMI official site, that disagree.
I also don't want to confuse anyone with the Strictly SAAMI, Strictly NATO, or all the 'In Between' chambers that are out there when they first start out loading and getting into this...
SAAMI says NOT to use 5.56 NATO in a .223 Rem rifle, that should be good enough for anyone that doesn't do this to the 9th degree...
Some people just aren't tech geeks and don't much care as long at the rifle isn't going to try and stick a bolt in there face at high velocity...
I'll be glad to discuss the merits of what I've done or found out works for me,
But not on this thread.
Don't want to torpedo the OPs thread on a discussion of chambers when all he's asking for is some load data, not trying to recut the chamber.
The fun is in the SHOOTING, reloading is what I do so I can go SHOOTING!
I have a S&W M&P 15 chambered for 5.56X45, it shows signs of over pressure with most 5.56X45 Mill spec factory ammo (esp M193). I was able to push a Hornady 55gr FMJ round in that rifle to 3200 fps, with no signs of over pressure.
The only real difference was the shape of the round and where it engaged the rifling. I was using 5.56 brass that was run through a different rifle that has no trouble with mill ammo.
Brass was trimmed to the same length that i trim all my 223 to.
What is stamped on the barrel may not be the deciding factor if a round is safe or not, that's why you work up to a load.
Most reloading manuals only give you info for 223. If they don't differentiate and list a load for both 223/5.56, its just a 223 load that works for 5.56 chambered rifles. If they do list separate data for 5.56, it may be a heavier load that should not be used with a 223 chamber. If your 5.56 chamber is tight and tends to show signs of over pressure, you would want to work up a 5.56 round using the standard practice of starting with a slightly reduced charge.
The only time I have ever seen a rifle blow up is when a 12 year old was shooting his new 243 with reloads from Grandpa. Grandpa may have forgotten to put powder in a round, and the next round sent the barrel down range and the scope left a dent in the roof. Kid was OK if a little shaken.
The only real difference was the shape of the round and where it engaged the rifling. I was using 5.56 brass that was run through a different rifle that has no trouble with mill ammo.
Brass was trimmed to the same length that i trim all my 223 to.
What is stamped on the barrel may not be the deciding factor if a round is safe or not, that's why you work up to a load.
Most reloading manuals only give you info for 223. If they don't differentiate and list a load for both 223/5.56, its just a 223 load that works for 5.56 chambered rifles. If they do list separate data for 5.56, it may be a heavier load that should not be used with a 223 chamber. If your 5.56 chamber is tight and tends to show signs of over pressure, you would want to work up a 5.56 round using the standard practice of starting with a slightly reduced charge.
The only time I have ever seen a rifle blow up is when a 12 year old was shooting his new 243 with reloads from Grandpa. Grandpa may have forgotten to put powder in a round, and the next round sent the barrel down range and the scope left a dent in the roof. Kid was OK if a little shaken.
I load for 223 bolt gun , 5.56 and 223 Wylde chambered AR rifles . My load development is virtually identical regardless as to what I'm loading for . In fact It's no different from the 308 , 270 & 30-30 I load for ( all bolt guns ) I use Redding bushing dies for everything but the 30-30 . Except for minor IMO differences in bullet hold and shoulder set back . The loading process is the same . Case prep is the same . If it's a new rifle . I first find the max COAL and seat my bullets .020 short of that unless the mag requires something different .
Start at minimum charge and work your way up .
Not sure why I posted that . Maybe it's starting to sound more complex then it really is . Stick with published data , work up from minimum and you should be GTG
Start at minimum charge and work your way up .
Not sure why I posted that . Maybe it's starting to sound more complex then it really is . Stick with published data , work up from minimum and you should be GTG
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JeepHammer
In reply,The object of your passion seems to be the dangers of firing 5.56 ammo in a .223 AR.
Then you suggest I not talk about chambers.
They are both AR.s.The difference is the chamber.It is all about the chamber,and primarily about the leade.
I agree,it is not recommended to use 5.56 Nato Ammo in a .223 chamber.Except,you can use it in a 223 Wylde chamber because it is throated for heavy bullets.
I agree that excessive pressure can result.I have read,in a"perfect storm" situation,excessive pressure up to the low 70,000 psi range can occur.
That is proof load range.Its not good.
But if you keep having rifles blow up around you,and you think the root cause is shooting 5.56 in .223 chambers,the rifles will keep blowing up because you are wrong in identifying your root cause.
Look to any cause that may result in an out of battery ignition.Among other possibilities,wrong(sensitive) primers
Look to any source of innapropriate powder,like pistol powder,contaminated powder,open container gunshow powder,etc
Look to any source of bore obstruction.
Example,our tactical hero is blazing away,he gets a stoppage.He does immediate action "Hoowah!" He pulls the trigger and his gun blows up.
His buddy with the progressive press,(expert) had a few "no powder" squib loads escape.Does his buddy raise his hand and say "My fault!" Maybe.
Mid 60's my brother brought home an AR-15 brand new.SN 34XX
In the 60's,I began loading.
Since then,I have been the go to mentor for a lot of folks,reloading.Some have taught others.
I'm talking 3 gunners with Dillon 1050s
Of all the folks I have helped over decades,not one has blown up a gun.Ever.(that I know of)
Another article:
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/5-56-vs-223/
In reply,The object of your passion seems to be the dangers of firing 5.56 ammo in a .223 AR.
Then you suggest I not talk about chambers.
They are both AR.s.The difference is the chamber.It is all about the chamber,and primarily about the leade.
I agree,it is not recommended to use 5.56 Nato Ammo in a .223 chamber.Except,you can use it in a 223 Wylde chamber because it is throated for heavy bullets.
I agree that excessive pressure can result.I have read,in a"perfect storm" situation,excessive pressure up to the low 70,000 psi range can occur.
That is proof load range.Its not good.
But if you keep having rifles blow up around you,and you think the root cause is shooting 5.56 in .223 chambers,the rifles will keep blowing up because you are wrong in identifying your root cause.
Look to any cause that may result in an out of battery ignition.Among other possibilities,wrong(sensitive) primers
Look to any source of innapropriate powder,like pistol powder,contaminated powder,open container gunshow powder,etc
Look to any source of bore obstruction.
Example,our tactical hero is blazing away,he gets a stoppage.He does immediate action "Hoowah!" He pulls the trigger and his gun blows up.
His buddy with the progressive press,(expert) had a few "no powder" squib loads escape.Does his buddy raise his hand and say "My fault!" Maybe.
Mid 60's my brother brought home an AR-15 brand new.SN 34XX
In the 60's,I began loading.
Since then,I have been the go to mentor for a lot of folks,reloading.Some have taught others.
I'm talking 3 gunners with Dillon 1050s
Of all the folks I have helped over decades,not one has blown up a gun.Ever.(that I know of)
Another article:
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/5-56-vs-223/
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JeepHammer
Moderator
I did NOT say not to talk about chambers,
I said to start a thread ON CHAMBERS,
I didn't want to screw up a 'Novice' thread with the debate.
Chambering conversations ALWAYS take up pages and pages...
Everybody does it differently, and they go on AT LENGHT about how *THEY* do it and the merits of what they do.
--------------
I saw one blow up while we were using 5.56 military surplus ammo.
No Squib, just destroyed the rifle and made me look for clean underwear.
I've seen two more blown up, one at Knob Creek range, sitting on tables.
I don't know what ammo they were shooting, only displayed as warnings against mixing loads.
I've seen Dozens, if not hundreds of pictures on the internet of blown up rifles, usually with warnings about mixing ammo.
SAAMI posed an 'Unsafe Condition' warning about running 5.56 ammo through a .223 chamber on the FRONT PAGE of their website.
It did NOT discuss primers, reloaded ammo, ect.
It was aimed at 5.56 NATO ammo in a .223 Chamber.
I personally haven't had any issues other than an occasional failure to cycle, but I watch/check my chambers pretty closely.
-----------
Since the advent of the 'In-Between' chambers that keep popping up, I don't hear about nearly as many blown up rifles.
I also don't spend nearly as much time at matches, sitting around BS-ing with guys that spent equally as much time at their ranges/matches.
I'm not around the 'Gun Bunch' as much, so I don't hear all the gossip.
(One reason I'm spending time on forums, I miss the interaction...)
I was just aiming to point out there WAS an issue with some rifles,
SAAMI and others pinpointed it as the ammo in the wrong chamber,
And pass that along since he was a 'Novice' reloader.
Something to be aware of...
SAFETY FIRST!
Wasn't trying to start anything, or delve into the intricacies of the chambers,
Which he doesn't need to do since he's already got the 5.56 NATO chamber if his barrel was stamped correctly...
Just curious, Has anyone ever heard of a bolt gun blowing up that didn't have a plugged barrel from a squib?
I had a bolt gun brought into the shop several years back, swell in the barrel, the guy had a squib and the next round knocked it out, they shot the rifle all day before bringing it in!
I would have liked to seen the brass from the round that knocked the squib out!
That would be a REAL conversation piece!
I said to start a thread ON CHAMBERS,
I didn't want to screw up a 'Novice' thread with the debate.
Chambering conversations ALWAYS take up pages and pages...
Everybody does it differently, and they go on AT LENGHT about how *THEY* do it and the merits of what they do.
--------------
I saw one blow up while we were using 5.56 military surplus ammo.
No Squib, just destroyed the rifle and made me look for clean underwear.
I've seen two more blown up, one at Knob Creek range, sitting on tables.
I don't know what ammo they were shooting, only displayed as warnings against mixing loads.
I've seen Dozens, if not hundreds of pictures on the internet of blown up rifles, usually with warnings about mixing ammo.
SAAMI posed an 'Unsafe Condition' warning about running 5.56 ammo through a .223 chamber on the FRONT PAGE of their website.
It did NOT discuss primers, reloaded ammo, ect.
It was aimed at 5.56 NATO ammo in a .223 Chamber.
I personally haven't had any issues other than an occasional failure to cycle, but I watch/check my chambers pretty closely.
-----------
Since the advent of the 'In-Between' chambers that keep popping up, I don't hear about nearly as many blown up rifles.
I also don't spend nearly as much time at matches, sitting around BS-ing with guys that spent equally as much time at their ranges/matches.
I'm not around the 'Gun Bunch' as much, so I don't hear all the gossip.
(One reason I'm spending time on forums, I miss the interaction...)
I was just aiming to point out there WAS an issue with some rifles,
SAAMI and others pinpointed it as the ammo in the wrong chamber,
And pass that along since he was a 'Novice' reloader.
Something to be aware of...
SAFETY FIRST!
Wasn't trying to start anything, or delve into the intricacies of the chambers,
Which he doesn't need to do since he's already got the 5.56 NATO chamber if his barrel was stamped correctly...
Just curious, Has anyone ever heard of a bolt gun blowing up that didn't have a plugged barrel from a squib?
I had a bolt gun brought into the shop several years back, swell in the barrel, the guy had a squib and the next round knocked it out, they shot the rifle all day before bringing it in!
I would have liked to seen the brass from the round that knocked the squib out!
That would be a REAL conversation piece!
spacecoast
New member
Well I did some more depriming/full length resizing over the weekend (no shooting yet) 
and found that I can get away with lubing only every other case because there's enough lube left on the dies to permit relatively easy insertion/extraction (with a hand press) for one extra round. Then I pick up another lubed round and repeat.
After 150 or so cases processed so far, I have also found 30-40% of the cases were still under 1.760", so I went ahead and primed those.
and found that I can get away with lubing only every other case because there's enough lube left on the dies to permit relatively easy insertion/extraction (with a hand press) for one extra round. Then I pick up another lubed round and repeat.After 150 or so cases processed so far, I have also found 30-40% of the cases were still under 1.760", so I went ahead and primed those.
603Country
New member
Yup. Lube them all. I just lube the bottom half of the case with RCBS lube.
I'm beginning to get a feel for why jeephammer catches a hard time on the other forum.
I'm beginning to get a feel for why jeephammer catches a hard time on the other forum.