.223 For Whitetail?
- Thread starter Big Tom
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Sure Shot Mc Gee
New member
Being Physically Challenged. If the 223 cartridge is legal to harvest Big Game in the State your hunting. "No reason not too hunt. " With one reservation. Don't shoot at animals beyond those distances your accustom too~ shooting. Especially so with a single shot firearm and having no practical hunting experience.
Big Tom said:
First thing we need to discuss is your rifle, do you know the year of manufacture? The reason I ask is before 2007 the H&R Handi Rifles used a mixture of 1:12 and 1:9 twists, and this will make a big difference on the bullets you can use. After 2007 they only used 1:9 twists which will handle most bullets that are suitable for hunting.
Dufus is the only person who even has mentioned this. To figure out your year of manufacturer go to Graybeard Outdoors and go to the H&R FAQ page. If you have a pre-2007 rifle then you'll have to measure your twist, there is also instructions on that also in the H&R FAQ page.
I have the same rifle and it is a 1:12 twist and will not handle well any bullet over 55 grains except the 63 grain Sierra SMP, but I haven't tried the new 64 grain Bonded Performance from Nosler. My rifle will also not handle any mono metal bullets over 50 grains, the best shooting being the 45 grain TTSX. Solid copper bullets over 50 grains just keyhole at 100 yards.
Big Tom said:
I'm sure that scope will work, but it's calibrated for a muzzle loader not a .223. This means the dots to compensate for drop will not match up to 200 yards like it's supposed to for a muzzle loader. You'll have to figure out where the dots do match up by shooting the rifle to figure out how the bullet drops match up. Using an app like Strelok Pro will help a lot to match up drops to the reticle.
The link won't work for me to see the ammo you are talking about. However, I can tell you that if you don't know your twist rate we can't tell you if the ammo will work. I've allowed my daughter to use the .223 for deer for a few years now, and can tell you I wouldn't use any bullet under 60 grains for deer that wasn't a bullet that wasn't a Nosler E-Tip, Barnes TTSX/TSX, or Hornady GMX.
I've never hunting deer with a 223. Doesn't mean it wont work ( I have too many other rifles, my 223s just haven't had their turn).
I have seen a lot of critters killed with 223s and some a lot bigger then whitetails.
I use to be in the AK NG commanding an Alaska Native Guard Unit on the Bering Sea. These people feed their families by hunting. They don't have a lot of money, jobs are rare out there.
When qualifying, I'd order extra ammo and turned a blind eye if some would get lost.
Because they could get the ammo, they used it. I've seen a heck of a lot of caribou, seals and walrus's taken with the 223. All are a lot larger then White tails.
My brother got disabled from Vietnam. He wanted to hunt also. But he couldn't walk. He tried all sorts of rifles people recommended. None worked out. I told him to dump all the other crap and got him a 223. He could shoot it, he could handle it and he took several Arkansas WhiteTails with it.
If you can shoot your 223, it will work fine for white tails.
200 yards is well within the range of the 223. I disagree with many here saying its a short range rifle, having shot a lot of rifle matches, to 600 and even 1000 yards with the 223s.
W/proper 60-65 gr bullets it would be good to 400+ yards. If your rifle has a faster twist, you can extend that to 600 yards.
Good luck and good shooting.
I have seen a lot of critters killed with 223s and some a lot bigger then whitetails.
I use to be in the AK NG commanding an Alaska Native Guard Unit on the Bering Sea. These people feed their families by hunting. They don't have a lot of money, jobs are rare out there.
When qualifying, I'd order extra ammo and turned a blind eye if some would get lost.
Because they could get the ammo, they used it. I've seen a heck of a lot of caribou, seals and walrus's taken with the 223. All are a lot larger then White tails.
My brother got disabled from Vietnam. He wanted to hunt also. But he couldn't walk. He tried all sorts of rifles people recommended. None worked out. I told him to dump all the other crap and got him a 223. He could shoot it, he could handle it and he took several Arkansas WhiteTails with it.
If you can shoot your 223, it will work fine for white tails.
200 yards is well within the range of the 223. I disagree with many here saying its a short range rifle, having shot a lot of rifle matches, to 600 and even 1000 yards with the 223s.
W/proper 60-65 gr bullets it would be good to 400+ yards. If your rifle has a faster twist, you can extend that to 600 yards.
Good luck and good shooting.
I have used 60 gn Nosler Partitions and 55 gn Barnes TSX out of a .223 on white tails and loaded the 60 gn partition for others. They are deadly if you do your part. If it's an option I would try to trade the Ultra for a cheap used bolt action .243, I koad soft loads for my wife and some other youngsters and recoil is minimal and the load is more capable than the .223. BUT it will certainly work.
Don Fischer
New member
I think before buying some of these loads mentioned, the 60gr plus, I'd find out for sure the rate of twist in your rifle. I don't know if the 55gr Partition come's in the 223 or not or the 55gr tsx. I think Nosler has a 55gr Partition bullet. If not I might try the 60gr partition but wouldn't get my hope's up to high. Actully I think the guy' shooting the heavier bullet's say their rifle is a 1-8 twist. Start getting into heavy for caliber bullet's way down there and twist needs to be known. Just looked in my Nosler manual, the 55gr bullet's are Ballistic tip's, I'd try the 60gr. May and may not shoot in your rifle. Of course if you got 1.5" group's from it, it would work.
603Country
New member
Like someone mentioned, one bullet that is sure to work (and stabilize) is that Sierra 63 gr SMP. It's shorter than the 65 gr Sierra GK, the 60 gr Partition, and the 64 gr Nosler Bonded Solid Base. I'm not a big fan of using the 223 for deer, but it most certainly will do the job, if you place the bullet properly. Years ago I was invited on a hog hunt in South Texas. A buddy also was invited, but had no rifle. I loaned him the only other rifle I had, which was a short barreled 220 Swift. I loaded up some rounds with the 63 gr Sierra. I was standing next to him when he shot a decent sized hog that was running full tilt. That hog tumbled and flopped for 15 yards, and was as dead as a hog can get. And he shot a couple more later that weekend. The bullet performed well.
MosinNOUGAT
New member
It would work, but I would go with maybe .308 (or 7.62x54r 
).
But if you feel comfortable with it, it'll serve it's purpose.
).But if you feel comfortable with it, it'll serve it's purpose.
Very important information here. If you have a 1:12 twist barrel you're going to be disappointed with the accuracy performance of bullets on the heavy end of the spectrum.taylorce1 said:
You may get good results from copper-jacketed lead bullets in the mid 60 grain range, but anything heavier than that is likely to be inaccurate in a 1:12 twist. And if the bullet is a monometal bullet (copper or gilding metal) then it will be longer for a given weight and even something in the 60 grain range may not stabilize.
Get your cleaning rod and put a tightly fitting patch on it and push it most of the way through the bore. Then put a small piece of tape on the cleaning rod to provide an index and also so you can clearly see the rod rotating as you pull it back out of the bore.
Slowly pull the cleaning rod out of the bore. When the tape shows that the rod has completed one full rotation then take a measurement to see how far the rod moved while it completed a full rotation. If it moves 9" then your twist is 1:9 and you should be able to use conventional bullets up into mid 70 grain range. If it's 1:12, then you need to stick to conventional bullets in the low 60 grain range.
Whatever you pick, you definitely need to take it to the range and shoot it at the ranges you would expect to take a shot while hunting.
Big Tom said:
There are other places to get the info you need besides the H&R web page. Graybeard Outdoors and Marlin Owners forum both have a H&R forum with a lot of info on them. I mainly use Graybeard as I'm registered there and can post questions. Graybeard has a very extensive FAQ page on Handi Rifles that'll save you a lot of internet search time.
Even if you find out your rifle was manufactured after 2007, I'd still check the twist rate. You never know if they accidentally used a barrel that was supposed to go on a .22-250. Stranger things have happened, than a barrel being mixed up at the factory.
The nice thing about H&R rifles is you can change the barrels to a larger cartridge, it isn't as simple as TC Contender/Encore but it isn't hard. There are many places you can find a used barrel like one of the forums, eBay, and gunbroker if you watch you can find one to fit in your budget. .243 barrels were pretty common and can be had fairly reasonable. A gunsmith can fit the barrel to your action since H&R no longer offers this service, or if you are handy you can do it yourself pretty easily.
Colorado Redneck
New member
Using the stability calculator at JBM Ballistics the 60 gr nosler partition at 3000 fps with 1:12 twist looks ok. If you can get a load for yoyr rifle using that bullet it should worh even with a 12 twist.
Lots of details being discussed, but let me simplify it. Many states allow handgun hunting of whitetail. No one ever argues about the 600 ftlbs of 357 (and that's a very warm load) being insufficient. 223 more than doubles that. Use a bullet suitable for the application and you'll be fine. Go for it.
ShootistPRS
New member
The kinetic energy of a bullet does not kill. What does kill is damage to the cardiovascular or central nervous system. Choosing the right bullet goes in the right direction but caliber does play a role too.
You can kill a whitetail with a 22 caliber gun but you have to place the correct bullet properly. If you can keep your shots in a 2" circle at 200 yards and you know the anatomy of a white tail then it should not be a problem to kill one cleanly and quickly.
You can kill a whitetail with a 22 caliber gun but you have to place the correct bullet properly. If you can keep your shots in a 2" circle at 200 yards and you know the anatomy of a white tail then it should not be a problem to kill one cleanly and quickly.
Ok, I guess in the same sense that mass of a bullet doesn't kill, nor does velocity of a bullet.
K/E is the closest measurement we have to adequately compare the potential lethality of one caliber to another. It is, in fact, an industry standard. We all know that deer hunting with a .22 short is ill advised. It's K/E reflects that. We all know that .308 is plenty adequate, and likewise it's K/E reflects that.
Likewise I've tracked a deer that a friend gutshot with a 300 mag. We tracked it for nearly 1/4 mile and it crossed a river, lost forever. So the same holds true with a high power 30 caliber round as well.
While more accuracy certainly helps alleviate the potential for errors, I would argue that a 6" circle at 200 yards is plenty adequate. Not many hunters are an honest minute of angle marksman, especially from field positions. Nor do they need to be.
ShootistPRS
New member
Kinetic energy is totally dependent on speed. Destruction of tissue is based on the size of the wound channel. Lethality is based on the correct tissue being damaged.
If velocity (or kinetic Energy) was all that was necessary we would all be hunting with 220 Swifts and 40 grain bullets and the guys who hunted buffalo and grizzly bear with 45 and 50 caliber round balls would never have killed any.
The reason kinetic energy was popularized was the advent of high velocity small caliber cartridges and the publicity surrounding them. Dr. Martin Fackler proved long ago that only the permanent wound channel mattered in the lethality of any hit. He also proved that larger caliber bullets made larger permanent wound cavities. Light bullets are more easily deflected during the impact process and the biggest part of the permanent wound channel they create is due to tumbling or fragmentation. Dr. Fackler is THE leading authority on terminal ballistics and has worked with the military and tried to educate the general public for decades writing more than 2-300 books and articles on the topic. He busted the myth of "Hydrostatic Shock" as a killing mechanism and improved testing media for bullet impact effect testing.
If velocity (or kinetic Energy) was all that was necessary we would all be hunting with 220 Swifts and 40 grain bullets and the guys who hunted buffalo and grizzly bear with 45 and 50 caliber round balls would never have killed any.
The reason kinetic energy was popularized was the advent of high velocity small caliber cartridges and the publicity surrounding them. Dr. Martin Fackler proved long ago that only the permanent wound channel mattered in the lethality of any hit. He also proved that larger caliber bullets made larger permanent wound cavities. Light bullets are more easily deflected during the impact process and the biggest part of the permanent wound channel they create is due to tumbling or fragmentation. Dr. Fackler is THE leading authority on terminal ballistics and has worked with the military and tried to educate the general public for decades writing more than 2-300 books and articles on the topic. He busted the myth of "Hydrostatic Shock" as a killing mechanism and improved testing media for bullet impact effect testing.
Kinetic energy is dependent on both velocity and mass, not just velocity.
Whether or not that is why it was popularized, it came into use in the first place, and has stayed in common use because it is a scientific quantity which quantifies the potential of a projectile to do work/cause damage. There are any number of reasons why a projectile may not do as much damage as it has the potential to do, but kinetic energy provides a good starting point for those who want to try to boil things down to a single number.
For what it's worth, I don't believe any single number comes close to telling the whole story when it comes to insight into terminal effect, but if you're going to pick only one number, you could certainly do worse than kinetic energy. Momentum is another scientific quantity which provides insight and which is used (though not as commonly) to attempt to quantify terminal effect, especially in handguns.
While he did make the claim that temporary cavity was not a significant wounding effect, it was specifically in reference to handgun caliber lethality, not rifle caliber lethality. While that is generally accepted to be a fairly accurate generalization, it is not a universal truth, nor has it ever been conclusively been proven to be universally true even when applied only to handgun caliber lethality.
In fact, temporary cavity can have a significant effect on lethality even in handgun calibers--though it is generally not very reliable even in the more powerful handgun calibers.
Here's a quote from Dr. Fackler. "It should be noted, however, that stretch from temporary cavity tissue displacement can disrupt blood vessels or break bones at some distance from the projectile path, just as they can be disrupted by blunt trauma."