223 Case Gauge

I'll throw another cow chip in the fire...
Which case gauge?
Datum length gauge or profile gauge?

I'm with Mr. Guffy on this one.
No one I know uses a Datum line gauge correctly, all of them use it as a drop in quick check.
When you try to explain how a case gauge is supposed to work, their eyes roll or glaze over.

I agree the gauge seems screwed in this case.
No one suggested brushing for crud or checking the gauge for rust, etc.
Shows case gauge illiteracy all the way around...
 
No one I know uses a Datum line gauge correctly, all of them use it as a drop in quick check.
When you try to explain how a case gauge is supposed to work, their eyes roll or glaze over.
Click to expand...

There is no excuse for not understanding 'the datum'; I make datums, I also collect datums and when I can sneak up on someone I have purchased datums by the box full.

There is the datum, and then there are datum refinements, that is something we will never get around to discussing because of the glazed over rolled back eyes.

Chamber casting? Same thing.

F. Guffey
 
I use a NYLON brush & lint free towel piece.
It's the same with a Datum line adapter, when you try and explain the difference between 'Relative' & absloute measurements.

It's like the idea of an ACCURATE measurement is something dirty or 0.015" off is 'Close Enough'.
Endless arguments arguing AGAINST measuring standards so you know you have an accurate measurement tool, arguments FOR Harbor Freight calipers instead of something accurate, using a Datum length gauge for Datum length measurements, a profile gauge for profile inspection...

Might as well use a $2 tape measure if you don't think your caliper/micrometer needs to be checked with standards, or don't think it needs to be accurate.

When the idea of a straight edge escapes them, it's trying to teach a pig to sing, a waste of time & effort.

I get it that some guys just want the brass to fit back into the chamber...
If that's the case, why own a gauge at all when they have the chamber right there... It's the 'Last Word' inspection to end all inspections.

The ONLY circumstance when the chamber isn't the last word,
--- When you are bending brass for multiple rifles ----

Then you have an obligation to return brass to as close to SAAMI as possible.
(Or if the chamber is wildcat, as close to the designed size as possible, a disclaimer for the nit-pickers on the forum)

The idea that military cases/ammo is 'Undersize' is simply false.
I've purchased several hundred thousand surplus (unfired) military cases and they are MUCH close to 'Ideal' specified size (7.62 NATO, 5.56 NATO, etc).
MUCH closer to ideal specified than the best civilian brass.

There *Might* be some WWII or foreign made brass (specifically communist block made brass) that is far from ideal specifications, but US made military contract made brass is spot on.
The inspection process is far beyond what ANY home reloader will ever be able to measure since they aren't going to section brass for inspection or order an alloy composition breakdown, etc.

I applaud the guys with gauges, and accurate measuring tools, particularly if they have standards for QC qualification.
I just wish they would take an hour to learn how to use the tool correctly...
(The 'Idiots Guide To..', from GAUGE MAKERS, are on YouTube if you don't like reading instructions)
Figure out what's happening to the brass during firing, so they know what needs to be corrected, and what to leave alone.

I'm always amazed how people can write with complete authority on this subject, while passing along completely false, or even idiotic information...

FACTS:
You NEED a quality, accurate measuring tool, caliper or micrometer.
You NEED standards, while you can set the 'Zero', without accurate standards you have no idea what the measuring tool is doing over it's range of measurement.

Clamping on a 'Dime' or a feeler gauge leaf IS NOT a 'Standard', the measuring device is more accurate than the thickness of a 'Dime', and a dime or feeler gauge IS NOT long enough to test range of scale.

A 'Harbor Freight' or any other $10-$20 caliper is 'Thickness of Thumbnail' accuracy, might as well use a tape measure.
Without standards, not even proven to be that accurate.

Doesn't matter how much you write as an 'Authority' on the subject, these are the FACTS.
ANY machinist (not brake rotor mechanic) will tell you exactly the same thing.
 
I've grown lazy. Dies, gauges, even some gun parts, I leave soaking in a beaker full of naphtha overnight. The next day I suspend the beaker in the heated ultrasonic for awhile. Pretty much everything falls to the bottom of the beaker or dissolves in the solvent.
 
Funny you should ask. I got a cheapo set of Harbor Freight calipers just because the processor in the metering unit had the option of producing fractions to the nearest 1/128th of an inch in the display and I was trying to teach a neighbor's kid about fractions at the time. But these calipers were just awful. Cut-you sharp edges at every corner and they felt gritty sliding and the jaws splayed and flexed badly. So I tore them down and discovered they were chock full of grinding dust. A true zero QC product.

I happened to have a gallon jug of Bransonic ultrasonic water-based circuit board cleaner and I removed the battery and got the tool as far apart as I conveniently could do and used that solution to clean the whole set inside and out, followed by a short time in the ultrasonic with DI water followed by sitting in a desiccator full of baked-out montmorillonite clay (STP brand oil absorbent) for a couple of weeks. It came out working fine and is dramatically less gritty in operation. Pain in the backside to have to do all that to it and to use a Craytex bit on my Fordham tool to dehorn it, though. I've probably got enough work in it to have justified buying a good set in the first place, but then it was mainly time rather than money and I always did like making a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
 
JeepHammer wrote:
You NEED a quality, accurate measuring tool, caliper or micrometer.
Click to expand...

I have a decent caliper that I mostly use for checking case length, but spent most of my tool money on a quality micrometer.
 
why own a gauge at all when they have the chamber right there...
Click to expand...

I believe you could find as many excuses for that procedure not working as you have listed for the failure for any other method and or technique.

About the only procedure you did not cover was the verifying of a gage. For years and years Sinclair/Hornady sold a comparator with a radius, I do not know how long it took them to be convinced there is no way to verify/ZERO the comparator with a radius. I thought many reloaders were going to pass out before they started recommending measure before and again after.

The problem was complicated by their refusal to recognize the difference between a head space gage and a comparator.

Back to the case gage: The case gage is 80 years old +/-, it is not a drop-in gage, it is not a head space gage because the case does not have head space. Point: The case gage can be verified, it is possible to use a standard to check it for accuracy.

"IT is possible", I have decided this stuff is not for everyone.

F. Guffey
 
Keeping in mind that about 80% or so of new employees will wash out or quit inside of 6 months in a machine shop (or any employment requiring more brain power than pushing boards through a saw or pulling pieces out of a mold and stacking them)...

We start the new hires out on a broom.
If they can figure out how to sweep out a corner with a shop broom, we move them to cleaning cuttings from machines, and so on.
When they get to tool stage it's one good dial caliper (usually something that just barely missed passing QC) and they WILL learn to use it or they hit the bricks.
If you can't teach new hires to read a machinist scale (ruler) and a direct read caliper in 6 months, no point in wasting more time on them.

And the current generation, a recent case, absent 6 days (no calls), late 19 of the first 30 work days and saw nothing wrong with it. Couldn't understand why he was let go...

Keep in mind, in the past twenty years at this, I've had exactly ONE person I didn't have to teach basic math, and teach them fractions from scratch. Most can't do simple addition/subtraction of anything with places behind the decimal point (probably why they can't make change for a dollar or balance a check book anymore).
That one guy has been here 14 years.

I honestly don't want to be a jerk about it, but what the hell happened to basic math & shop classes?

I've given up several times on this forum when trying to explain something as simple as reducing the neck sizer ball or opening up the neck (under sizer) in the die.
It's like π r2 escapes people and they don't understand the significance of even slight changes in the diameter of a circle...
If they can't run an 1/8" jump in drill size through it, they aren't interested.
 
"(or any employment requiring more brain power than pushing boards through a saw or pulling pieces out of a mold and stacking them)..."
"I honestly don't want to be a jerk about it, but what the hell happened to basic math & shop classes?"
I apologize if I misread the intention of your post, but I read it as demeaning to people who have certain jobs. I was raised by a father who was actually a rocket scientist and worked on NASA projects. He always stressed to me to respect everyone who worked no matter what they did for an honest living. Me, I retired from the phone company after many years of climbing up and down telephone poles fixing good old landlines. Didn't take a lot of brain power, but I enjoyed my job(maybe not when it was raining) and made a good living at it. God Bless
 
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