.22 vs .45acp and .9mm
- Thread starter jalcon
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oldgunsmith
New member
Old Misconception
I've heard this many times over the years. It usually brings on a lot of dead horse beating.
I've heard this many times over the years. It usually brings on a lot of dead horse beating.
Frank Ettin
Administrator
Deadlier how and for what purposes? And shot placement matters a good deal. A .22 to the calf is certainly not deadlier than a 9mm to the brain stem.
If the purpose is self defense, it's not a matter of killing, but of stopping.
There are four ways in which shooting someone stops him:
Depending on someone just giving up because he's been shot is iffy. Probably most fights are stopped that way, but some aren't; and there are no guarantees.
Breaking major skeletal structures can quickly impair mobility. But if the assailant has a gun, he can still shoot. And it will take a reasonably powerful round to reliably penetrate and break a large bone, like the pelvis.
Hits to the central nervous system are sure and quick, but the CNS presents a small and uncertain target. And sometimes significant penetration will be needed to reach it.
The most common and sure physiological way in which shooting someone stops him is blood loss -- depriving the brain and muscles of oxygen and nutrients, thus impairing the ability of the brain and muscles to function. Blood loss is facilitated by (1) large holes causing tissue damage; (2) getting the holes in the right places to damage major blood vessels or blood bearing organs; and (3) adequate penetration to get those holes into the blood vessels and organs which are fairly deep in the body. The problem is that blood loss takes time. People have continued to fight effectively when gravely, even mortally, wounded. So things that can speed up blood loss, more holes, bigger holes, better placed holes, etc., help.
So as a rule of thumb --
If the purpose is self defense, it's not a matter of killing, but of stopping.
There are four ways in which shooting someone stops him:
- psychological -- "I'm shot, it hurts, I don't want to get shot any more."
- massive blood loss depriving the muscles and brain of oxygen and thus significantly impairing their ability to function
- breaking major skeletal support structures
- damaging the central nervous system.
Depending on someone just giving up because he's been shot is iffy. Probably most fights are stopped that way, but some aren't; and there are no guarantees.
Breaking major skeletal structures can quickly impair mobility. But if the assailant has a gun, he can still shoot. And it will take a reasonably powerful round to reliably penetrate and break a large bone, like the pelvis.
Hits to the central nervous system are sure and quick, but the CNS presents a small and uncertain target. And sometimes significant penetration will be needed to reach it.
The most common and sure physiological way in which shooting someone stops him is blood loss -- depriving the brain and muscles of oxygen and nutrients, thus impairing the ability of the brain and muscles to function. Blood loss is facilitated by (1) large holes causing tissue damage; (2) getting the holes in the right places to damage major blood vessels or blood bearing organs; and (3) adequate penetration to get those holes into the blood vessels and organs which are fairly deep in the body. The problem is that blood loss takes time. People have continued to fight effectively when gravely, even mortally, wounded. So things that can speed up blood loss, more holes, bigger holes, better placed holes, etc., help.
So as a rule of thumb --
- More holes are better than fewer holes.
- Larger holes are better than smaller holes.
- Holes in the right places are better than holes in the wrong places.
- Holes that are deep enough are better than holes that aren't.
- There are no magic bullets.
jalcon said:
Fixed that for ya
jalcon said:
Even assuming the numbers above are accurate from handguns of a similar barrel length/size, and assuming a direct close range 90 degree shot to a vital area (assumptions that can not be assumed in ANY situation), your friend only supports the premise that all three are equally deadly. All three rounds would kill in such a situation, with pretty much 100% efficiency. The problem is that, the more complications, the less effective the .22 becomes due to round size (ability to hit a vital area), power (ability to penetrate skin/flesh/bone), and power transferred to the target.
NO ... a .45 or a 9mm is going to do a lot more damage even at close range..... than any .22 LR ....... with ONE exception.
The "one" exception I know of is ... a head shot. A .22 LR shot to the head, won't typically have the energy to "exit" the head..... and it's been known to stay in the cranium and just keep bouncing around chewing up the brain until it loses all of it's velocity.
However, .22's have also been known to richochet off someone's head, because of it hitting just right and the curvature of the cranium, it wouldn't penetrate.
The "one" exception I know of is ... a head shot. A .22 LR shot to the head, won't typically have the energy to "exit" the head..... and it's been known to stay in the cranium and just keep bouncing around chewing up the brain until it loses all of it's velocity.
However, .22's have also been known to richochet off someone's head, because of it hitting just right and the curvature of the cranium, it wouldn't penetrate.
kilimanjaro
New member
Nothing can be "more deadly" or "less lethal" than the other, either it's deadly and lethal, or just life-threatening. I would think the .22, all other things being equal, should be classed as life-threatening, rather than lethal. True, you can be killed, and killed quickly, with a .22, but you are more likely to be wounded.
Rainbow Demon
New member
Years ago it was stated in articles on the subject that due to the outside lubrication of the .22 RF bullet a shooting victim was seven times more likely to die from infection if shot with a .22 than if shot with any jacketed pistol bullet.
A friend suffered an otherwise non life threatening wound when a .22 bullet glanced off his sternum and ran under the flesh to his neck. He contracted a Staph infection and lost half his body weight before he died weeks later.
While there are far better anti-biotics these days, there are also far more anti-biotic resistent strains that can eat you alive from the inside out even if you got the best medical care on earth.
Another factor is internal bleeding. A bullet wound to the heart muscle is not necessarily fatal, so long as theres a big enough hole in the cardial sheath to allow blood to drain out of that sheath and out the entrance wound.
A .22 bullet makes a very small hole in the sheath that can close up behind it, allowing blood forced through the hole in the muscle to gather in the sheath steadily constricting the movement of the muscle. You die slow and may never realize that you've even been shot.
A ice pick kills in much the same way.
Larger caliber bullets do more damage, but unless a major organ is destroyed or the spinal cord severed such wounds are mostly survivable with prompt medical care.
A friend suffered an otherwise non life threatening wound when a .22 bullet glanced off his sternum and ran under the flesh to his neck. He contracted a Staph infection and lost half his body weight before he died weeks later.
While there are far better anti-biotics these days, there are also far more anti-biotic resistent strains that can eat you alive from the inside out even if you got the best medical care on earth.
Another factor is internal bleeding. A bullet wound to the heart muscle is not necessarily fatal, so long as theres a big enough hole in the cardial sheath to allow blood to drain out of that sheath and out the entrance wound.
A .22 bullet makes a very small hole in the sheath that can close up behind it, allowing blood forced through the hole in the muscle to gather in the sheath steadily constricting the movement of the muscle. You die slow and may never realize that you've even been shot.
A ice pick kills in much the same way.
Larger caliber bullets do more damage, but unless a major organ is destroyed or the spinal cord severed such wounds are mostly survivable with prompt medical care.
Subject to actual research...
Mr. Ettin presents some excellent information and thought process. Keep up the good work.
Used to be 'conventional wisdom' was that more people over time have died and continue to die from .22 long rifle wounds than 'major caliber' wounds.
The explanation was two fold: One was the abundance of .22 long rifle chambered handguns, as has been mentioned.
The second part of the equation was that offered by the Rainbow Demon. Most of the deaths from .22 caliber handguns were several days removed from the event and caused by infection of various forms. The wound 'wasn't serious' in the mind of the departed and they didn't get medical attention.
Those shot with major calibers usually get drug off to the emergency room and get treatment.
The idea that any of this indicates a .22 long rifle pistol is a superior self-defense gun to a larger pistol is simply unfounded. And a bit silly.
And, as mentioned by several, the 'fact' more people get killed by .22s than other weapons is not really supported by any serious 'study' I've seen; but it has long been accepted as 'fact'. The information seems to come from anecdotal evidence of medical examiners and coroners (in the old days.)
Mr. Ettin presents some excellent information and thought process. Keep up the good work.
Used to be 'conventional wisdom' was that more people over time have died and continue to die from .22 long rifle wounds than 'major caliber' wounds.
The explanation was two fold: One was the abundance of .22 long rifle chambered handguns, as has been mentioned.
The second part of the equation was that offered by the Rainbow Demon. Most of the deaths from .22 caliber handguns were several days removed from the event and caused by infection of various forms. The wound 'wasn't serious' in the mind of the departed and they didn't get medical attention.
Those shot with major calibers usually get drug off to the emergency room and get treatment.
The idea that any of this indicates a .22 long rifle pistol is a superior self-defense gun to a larger pistol is simply unfounded. And a bit silly.
And, as mentioned by several, the 'fact' more people get killed by .22s than other weapons is not really supported by any serious 'study' I've seen; but it has long been accepted as 'fact'. The information seems to come from anecdotal evidence of medical examiners and coroners (in the old days.)
Well, yes and no. When people say "more deadly" they generally mean "more likely to kill," i.e. if a person is shot 1000 times with this round in varying or similar circumstances how many times does that person die. We cam make predictions about the odds of a shot ending in a fatality, but unless we do some experimentation (anyone wanna volunteer for that research study) it's mostly guesswork based on ballistics and anatomy.
I have heard a hypothesis on why the .22 kills more people:
-They don't realize they've been shot, so they don't stop doing whatever it was that got them shot, so they not only probably get shot some more, but they also are not immediately seeking medical attention.
We had a local shooting here where a guy was beating on a back door .... Mrs. Homie Homeowner meets him at the back door , and Mr. Homie gets a .22 rifle ...... Dudley Doorbeater tries to push his way inside, despite being informed that Mr. Homie has a gun and the cops were called. Mr. Homie shoots Dudley in the knee. Dudley goes back outside where he screams and yells and challenges Mr. Homie to a fistfight. He refuses to leave, and eventually makes another run at the door. Mr. Homie shoots him in the chest this time ..... by the time the popo get there, Dudley has collapsed in the backyard, and dies enroute to the hospital.
I surmise if Mr. Homie had used a .45 JHP to Dudley's kneecap instead of a 40 gr rn .22 ...... Dudley would be around to sue the Homie family .....
Any penetrating wound to the head, neck or torso is a life threat, or so they told me in EMT skool...... so a .22 can very easily kill you. It's just not that good at quickly incapacitating an attacker, which for our puposes, is the object of the excercise: What good is killing our attacker 15 minutes after he's beaten us to death with our empty .22 pocket pistol? Sure, Society in general is better off with Theodore the Thug taking a dirt nap, but I want to save ME, not kill HIM. Society can save it's own sorry butt.
-They don't realize they've been shot, so they don't stop doing whatever it was that got them shot, so they not only probably get shot some more, but they also are not immediately seeking medical attention.
We had a local shooting here where a guy was beating on a back door .... Mrs. Homie Homeowner meets him at the back door , and Mr. Homie gets a .22 rifle ...... Dudley Doorbeater tries to push his way inside, despite being informed that Mr. Homie has a gun and the cops were called. Mr. Homie shoots Dudley in the knee. Dudley goes back outside where he screams and yells and challenges Mr. Homie to a fistfight. He refuses to leave, and eventually makes another run at the door. Mr. Homie shoots him in the chest this time ..... by the time the popo get there, Dudley has collapsed in the backyard, and dies enroute to the hospital.
I surmise if Mr. Homie had used a .45 JHP to Dudley's kneecap instead of a 40 gr rn .22 ...... Dudley would be around to sue the Homie family .....
Any penetrating wound to the head, neck or torso is a life threat, or so they told me in EMT skool...... so a .22 can very easily kill you. It's just not that good at quickly incapacitating an attacker, which for our puposes, is the object of the excercise: What good is killing our attacker 15 minutes after he's beaten us to death with our empty .22 pocket pistol? Sure, Society in general is better off with Theodore the Thug taking a dirt nap, but I want to save ME, not kill HIM. Society can save it's own sorry butt.
Rainbow Demon
New member
I just remembered something I'd read last year.
It was a medical journal entry on a series of tests run on various types of military rifle ammunition.
They went so far as to apply germs of a known type to the nose of a FMJ bullet then test the captured bullet and test medium for the germ, proving that the heat of bullet friction in a high velocity rifle bore did not kill all germs that might be on a FMJ bullet.
Outside lubricated bullets are easily contaminated, and the lubricants of inside lubed bullets will carry germs or fungus from the clothing or skin of the victim deep into a wound. Notable blood loss from a large entrance wound can reduce the amount of infective agents by washing them out, while a small diameter entrance wound that closes quickly is more likely to become infected.
Mascerated flesh driven deep into a wound by a large diameter round nose or wadcutter bullet will lead to rapid and massive infection.
A tried and true treatment recently revived is the use of maggots to eat away this necrotic flesh leaving healthy tissue untouched.
They now breed maggots in sterile conditions for this purpose.
The technique has been effective in treating bedsores and similar tunneling infections.
Its one reason primitive warriors were often able to survive gunshot wounds without modern medical intervention.
It was a medical journal entry on a series of tests run on various types of military rifle ammunition.
They went so far as to apply germs of a known type to the nose of a FMJ bullet then test the captured bullet and test medium for the germ, proving that the heat of bullet friction in a high velocity rifle bore did not kill all germs that might be on a FMJ bullet.
Outside lubricated bullets are easily contaminated, and the lubricants of inside lubed bullets will carry germs or fungus from the clothing or skin of the victim deep into a wound. Notable blood loss from a large entrance wound can reduce the amount of infective agents by washing them out, while a small diameter entrance wound that closes quickly is more likely to become infected.
Mascerated flesh driven deep into a wound by a large diameter round nose or wadcutter bullet will lead to rapid and massive infection.
A tried and true treatment recently revived is the use of maggots to eat away this necrotic flesh leaving healthy tissue untouched.
They now breed maggots in sterile conditions for this purpose.
The technique has been effective in treating bedsores and similar tunneling infections.
Its one reason primitive warriors were often able to survive gunshot wounds without modern medical intervention.
It's very much about luck.
I think his reasoning is that the .22 has a bit of a reputation for being able to ricochet inside the body. I've seen a 9mm drill into someones head and they were still conscious with the round inside their actual brain. It's said that due to the .22LR's terminal ballistics it's possible that the .22 can bounce around the skull cavity causing massive trauma, since it very often wont have energy to do a clean pass through. Ive also heard about .22's bouncing around chest cavities and even the pelvis.
Basically it comes down to a lot more than muzzle energy and the size of the caliber.
Also .22 being one of the easier rounds to fire. Low recoil, low muzzle blast, etc. You are able to use the weapon more quickly and effectively. A hit with a .22 is more powerful than a miss with a .45 and 3 hits with .22lr is more likely to put someone down than one hit with a .45 in the same place.
I think his reasoning is that the .22 has a bit of a reputation for being able to ricochet inside the body. I've seen a 9mm drill into someones head and they were still conscious with the round inside their actual brain. It's said that due to the .22LR's terminal ballistics it's possible that the .22 can bounce around the skull cavity causing massive trauma, since it very often wont have energy to do a clean pass through. Ive also heard about .22's bouncing around chest cavities and even the pelvis.
Basically it comes down to a lot more than muzzle energy and the size of the caliber.
Also .22 being one of the easier rounds to fire. Low recoil, low muzzle blast, etc. You are able to use the weapon more quickly and effectively. A hit with a .22 is more powerful than a miss with a .45 and 3 hits with .22lr is more likely to put someone down than one hit with a .45 in the same place.