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.22 vs .45acp and .9mm
- Thread starter jalcon
- Start date
ScottRiqui
New member
Does he give any reasoning for his opinion? Because at first blush, I can't see how that would be true.
Is he perhaps thinking that at very close range, the larger-caliber bullets might not have time to expand, and would just pass through the target? Even if that were the case, a .45 or 9mm "through and through" is still going to do more damage than a .22 that expands fully.
See if you can find out more about what he's thinking.
Is he perhaps thinking that at very close range, the larger-caliber bullets might not have time to expand, and would just pass through the target? Even if that were the case, a .45 or 9mm "through and through" is still going to do more damage than a .22 that expands fully.
See if you can find out more about what he's thinking.
It's not more deadly, it's just less likely to be heard. Assassins sometimes use .22 but usually it's to kill some smuck in his bed or in the back office of his own business. No one will hear it and be likely to recognize it for what it is.
9mm and .45 are both pretty effective rounds and each has it's benefits but a .22 isn't even in the ball park.
9mm and .45 are both pretty effective rounds and each has it's benefits but a .22 isn't even in the ball park.
Exact quote:
"Ok here's the math...
Kinetic energy of a .45 ACP round 230 grain is 413 ft-lbs with a muzzle velocity of 900 fps.
Kinetic energy of a 9mm round 124 grain is 433 ft-lbs with a muzzle velocity of 1255 fps.
Kinetic energy of a .22 round 40 grain is 324 ft-lbs with a muzzle velocity of 1910 fps.
The human skull, on average, can withstand 180 ft-lbs before fracturing or puncturing.
The 22 is the fastest bullet, higher velocity and a very small tip makes the 22 very deadly at close range, more so than the 9mm or 45ACP"
"Ok here's the math...
Kinetic energy of a .45 ACP round 230 grain is 413 ft-lbs with a muzzle velocity of 900 fps.
Kinetic energy of a 9mm round 124 grain is 433 ft-lbs with a muzzle velocity of 1255 fps.
Kinetic energy of a .22 round 40 grain is 324 ft-lbs with a muzzle velocity of 1910 fps.
The human skull, on average, can withstand 180 ft-lbs before fracturing or puncturing.
The 22 is the fastest bullet, higher velocity and a very small tip makes the 22 very deadly at close range, more so than the 9mm or 45ACP"
ScottRiqui
New member
For starters, I'm just going to accept his muzzle energy figures as given, although at 1910 feet per second, he's probably talking about .22 WMR and not .22lr. No matter, though.
But his argument still doesn't make sense. He lists the muzzle energies for all three, and a 'threshold' to fracture the skull (that I've never seen before, but whatever). All three rounds surpass the threshold - so far so good. But then he's making the leap that the lowest-energy round will do the most damage?
If any of those three calibers are enough to fracture the skull, then you're either going to have a 9mm bullet, a .22 bullet, or a .45 bullet penetrating brain tissue. I don't think you can make a good argument that it's going to be the .22 doing the most damage.
EDIT - And even with the higher velocity, both the 9mm and .45 ACP still beat out the .22 in terms of muzzle energy (which greatly favors velocity over mass). So even if he's trying to go with the "energy dump" theory, the .22 is still the loser out of the bunch.
But his argument still doesn't make sense. He lists the muzzle energies for all three, and a 'threshold' to fracture the skull (that I've never seen before, but whatever). All three rounds surpass the threshold - so far so good. But then he's making the leap that the lowest-energy round will do the most damage?
If any of those three calibers are enough to fracture the skull, then you're either going to have a 9mm bullet, a .22 bullet, or a .45 bullet penetrating brain tissue. I don't think you can make a good argument that it's going to be the .22 doing the most damage.
EDIT - And even with the higher velocity, both the 9mm and .45 ACP still beat out the .22 in terms of muzzle energy (which greatly favors velocity over mass). So even if he's trying to go with the "energy dump" theory, the .22 is still the loser out of the bunch.
Please tell him this is laughable so I can show him this thread. Thanks guys!
Your friend made a very ignorant statement.
I've read that there have been more people killed with 22 than 45, 9mm or most all centerfires combined. I think that is probably a pretty accurate statement since there are more 22's out there. I think it is also pretty easy to misinterpret data and reach the wrong conclusions.
There is no doubt that 45 and 9mm are better choices, but I'll also say 22s' work better than many give them credit.
There is no doubt that 45 and 9mm are better choices, but I'll also say 22s' work better than many give them credit.
ScottRiqui
New member
No one's saying that a .22 wouldn't be effective. But I haven't seen any reasonable explanation as to why it would be "more deadly" than either 9mm or .45, either.
Sorry, I posted before reading the entire thread and missed post #5, so I'll respond to it.
His velocity numbers are way off. A 22 LR will only get around 1200-1300 fps from a rifle. Probably no more than 800 fps from a hangun.
And this is assuming a hit at a 90 Degree angle to a skull. That is fine as long as the person stands still and lets you shoot them in the brain at close range. The low mass of 22's will quite often penetrate the skin on a head shot and then deflect off the skull when shot at an angle. Bullets have been know to enter on one side of the head, travel along the outside of the skull, but under the skin and be found under the skin on the other side.
Most defensive shootings require body shots at moving targets where bullets must penetrate clothes just to hit the body.
His velocity numbers are way off. A 22 LR will only get around 1200-1300 fps from a rifle. Probably no more than 800 fps from a hangun.
And this is assuming a hit at a 90 Degree angle to a skull. That is fine as long as the person stands still and lets you shoot them in the brain at close range. The low mass of 22's will quite often penetrate the skin on a head shot and then deflect off the skull when shot at an angle. Bullets have been know to enter on one side of the head, travel along the outside of the skull, but under the skin and be found under the skin on the other side.
Most defensive shootings require body shots at moving targets where bullets must penetrate clothes just to hit the body.
Use the same thinking that antigunners use.
If the stats say more people are killed with .22s then just get rid of that caliber, ban it, it's obviously a bad thing.
Then when people carry little .32s instead because that's why they carried .22s, they are small, easy to carry and hide. Then .32s will be the deadliest and can be banned. But the stats will also show even more being killed cause yes a .32 is more potent then a .22 so you will get more deaths with the switch.
Rinse, Wash, Repeat.
If the stats say more people are killed with .22s then just get rid of that caliber, ban it, it's obviously a bad thing.
Then when people carry little .32s instead because that's why they carried .22s, they are small, easy to carry and hide. Then .32s will be the deadliest and can be banned. But the stats will also show even more being killed cause yes a .32 is more potent then a .22 so you will get more deaths with the switch.
Rinse, Wash, Repeat.
ScottRiqui
New member
His velocity numbers are way off. A 22 LR will only get around 1200-1300 fps from a rifle. Probably no more than 800 fps from a hangun.
True, but the bullet weight and velocity he used match perfectly to a common .22 WMR load, and he didn't specifically say ".22 lr".
Microgunner
New member
jalcon said:Please tell him this is laughable so I can show him this thread. Thanks guys!
I'm laughing. Your bud's got some strange ideas.
smokiniron
New member
From the automotive world...
There is no substitute for horsepower. Energy at impact, AND the ability to off-load it (ie hollow points, HydraShok, etc) would logically have more effect than a 40 gr. .22 LR
There is no substitute for horsepower. Energy at impact, AND the ability to off-load it (ie hollow points, HydraShok, etc) would logically have more effect than a 40 gr. .22 LR
I will conceed one point tho and it's often overlooked.
I can empty a .22LR semi into a target with a good group much faster then anything bigger and that sort of plays into that other part of the overall equation.
If the odds are say 20% of the shots might hit your target then he who shoots quicker and has easier target acquisition for followon shots has an edge.
I can empty a .22LR semi into a target with a good group much faster then anything bigger and that sort of plays into that other part of the overall equation.
If the odds are say 20% of the shots might hit your target then he who shoots quicker and has easier target acquisition for followon shots has an edge.
Dr Big Bird PhD
New member
If a .22 is more deadly than a 9mm or .45acp at close range then why is rimfire ammo the least regulated?
It's rhetorical to us, but it posits a point to your friend.
It's rhetorical to us, but it posits a point to your friend.
Microgunner
New member
Dr Big Bird PhD said:then why is rimfire ammo the least regulated?
Least regulated? In what way?
Dr Big Bird PhD
New member
Oh well... I live in Cali where semi-auto rimfire rifles are exempt under the AWBs.
True, but the bullet weight and velocity he used match perfectly to a common .22 WMR load, and he didn't specifically say ".22 lr".
Why stop there, maybe he was referring to 22-250. Today most people understand .22 to be synonymous with 22LR.