22 LR shooting long distance

[stagpanther]

22lr is like a box of chocolates--you never know what you're going to get

This thread is an example of why I like this forum--it inspires me to try new things for the fun of it. Yesterday was the first time I shot conventional factory 22 lr past 100 yds--120 to be exact--and today I almost doubled that to 237 yards. All I ever cared about was tiny groups at 50 yds.

On the menu was Norma TAC 22, Ely pistol match (it's all I had from Ely), winchester power point, my CZ 457's favorite; RWS R-50 and Aguila super extra.

Nothing seemed to perform the way I assumed it would. Faster ammo didn't necessarily impact higher on the target. from what I've read, slower ammo that didn't go transonic tended to be more accurate at longer distances. the logic of that eludes me--unless it has more to do with maintaining bullet stability more easily. I didn't see that today either as the faster stuff seemed to do better than the slower stuff.

I cut back my group sizes to 5 shots because I simply didn't have the concentration to make it through larger groups. The pistol stuff was a mistake--it wouldn't even feed from the magazine and the group size was in feet. I guess I should have paid attention to the "pistol" part. The rest of the ammo grouped around 4 to 5 inches, including my favorite R-50 which I expected would group far better than all the rest of the factory ammos.

I have a box of aguila super extra and wasn't even going to shoot it--it has never shot worth a poop in my CZ jaguar at shorter distances but decided to give it a try before I packed up for the day just for the heck of it. I was pretty shocked when the first group came in under MOA--just to make sure I shot a second group which also came in under MOA--I think. I thought I loaded 5 into the magazine but either missed one or pulled a shot so badly it went sailing far of the target, I couldn't find a fifth impact that correlated to this group.

 

[tangolima]

Nice groups!

If you want to dial up the challenge a notch, try first shot hit on a predefined target. Wait 3 mins between attempts. Score on the hit rate. I do that on clay ducks at 150yd in outdoor range with wind.

The game can be modified to allow 1 quick follow-up shot within 10 seconds. First shot hit is counted 10 points. Follow-up shot hit is counted as 5 points. Tally after 10 attempts.

I like it better than shooting groups.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

 

[stagpanther]

Thanks--it was fun but for me very demanding-- I can't imagine how people do this stuff with iron sights--I find I need a very high quality (expensive) scope just to get in the ballpark of accuracy. The other thing is 22 lr ballistics--which is akin to throwing rocks--is quite unpredictable IMO, my expectations did not match up with results based on the performance claims of the ammo and what I've read about 22lr. There does seem to be opposing views on whether a subsonic or supersonic bullet is going to perform better. Aguila seems to be one of the few exploring the "outer limits" of what could be called "+P" 22lr.

I did the revolver guy's day at the range 22lr challenge and that was fabulously fun--in fact I bought my CZ (my first 22lr) just to try it out.

 

[jetinteriorguy]

I have found in my particular rifle the Aguila also shoots best by a small margin. I’ve only shot out to 100 yds with it though. Out to 75yds it’s slightly sub MOA with ten round groups, much better with five round groups. At 100 it opens up to about 1.25 MOA with ten round groups, I haven’t tried five round groups at this range. The reason I differentiate between five and ten round groups is because at least in my case, as the hole in the target gets bigger for some reason my accuracy suffers. I think it’s because it becomes more difficult to center the cross hairs on the bigger hole. This is just my theory, it would be interesting to see if anyone else experiences this.

 

[jmr40]

I clean the barrels on my 22's sparingly. As in not very often. And I have gotten bored with 50 yard and under shooting and often shoot at 100 and 200 yards. Occasionally out to 250.

I have a Tikka T1x with a Leupold CDS scope on it. I zeroed it at 50 yards and used the "trial and error" method to figure out where to set the dials for 100 and 200 yards. With full adjustment I still have to hold over a few inches at 250.

I've had good luck with common CCI 36 gr HP Mini-Mags. Accuracy is unacceptable with any of the cheap bulk ammo. And while I do get a little better accuracy with quality target ammo at 50 yards, it hasn't been enough to offset the flatter trajectory of faster CCI ammo at longer range. I simply don't have enough adjustment in my scope to get on target at 200 yards with the slower sub-sonic target ammo. The Mini-Mags are the sweet spot for me as to price, accuracy, and flat trajectory.

Shooting at 50,100, and 200 on a windless day 1 MOA groups are the norm. Even the slightest breeze will make longer shots near impossible. At least for me.

 

[stagpanther]

Even the slightest breeze will make longer shots near impossible. At least for me.

I've noticed that too; I generally keep to winds in the 11 to 1 o'clock or 5 to 7 o'clock and under 10 mph if at all possible, though where I live on the Atlantic seaboard there is almost always some kind of wind. Shooting at dawn or dusk helps eliminate convective variability.

 

[Bart B.]

I know he meant things got worse--but I can't tell whether or not he meant it as a blanket statement covering all ammo--in other words centerfire, rimfire etc. If so, it sounds like what he's saying is everything became crap and lost half it's accuracy and barrel life after circa 1980.

I was referring to 22 rimfire ammo only.

When the Lapua ammo factory blew up in Finland it led to the European Union forcing rimfire ammo makers to change the way they primed rimfire cases.

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=...s-plant.html&usg=AOvVaw0w-UpCONDqlbeG5hmdIZHW

Eley was the first company to develop an approved priming method. It is called "Eley Prime". This method is used to this day. Eley sold this method to other companies including Lapua.

I can attest to the fact this priming mixture (ground glass) plays hell with stainless barrels. Anyone that has looked down a bore with a bore scope has seen what is called the "gravel road". It is called that because the six o'clock position in the bore will look like a gravel road rather than smooth and shiny as the rest of the bore.

This is why all 22 rimfire position shooting records set before 1981 still stand.

 

[stagpanther]

Very interesting. I didn't know the primer could have such a profound (and detrimental) effect. Since people are venturing into rimfire reloads--myself included--I wonder if that cannot be addressed somehow?

 

[stagpanther]

Just got back from shooting the aguila in midday moderately gusty conditions--I knew it was a hopeless task but was still interested in learning from what happened. I shot 4, 5 shot groups. This time I pushed it a little further--out to 346 [edit] yards.

Winds were 6 to 10 mph and tended to drop in and swirl about in the pit I shoot at. The prevailing direction was about at 9 o'clock--but tended to "roll in" and become a following or head wind erratically. My first 3 groups were vertically spaced enormously depending on what the head or tailwind component was doing. I attribute this to basically the high variability of the drag coefficient of the bullet as it slows down--but that's just a guess. overall, it seemed there was more variability in vertical dispersion than there was in horizontal. Except in the last group pictured here, which I assume transitioned through mostly horizontal side winds. One of the shots ended up in parts unknown.

addendum:

I went back out and tried again--but the winds only got stronger. I even set up some wind flags--but realized they are of little use if they are not in the field of view. I also measured what I thought was a longer range firing point--but lasered it and it was actually less than what I shot this morning--and I figured out that I transposed numbers--actual range for the group above was 346 yds--not 364. I figure size of group also grew a bit.

 

[tangolima]

In a very rough, first order consideration, long range accuracy is about time of flight of the projectile. You want to minimize it, by having high MV and high BC.

.22LR is pretty lousy in those 2 departments unfortunately. So it is only fair to compare with other calibers on flight time basis. I would say 100yd for .22lr is similar to 300 to 400yd, if not farther, for, say 30-06. 360yd, my goodness, would be like 1000yd for high power calibers.

I use this method trying to build up my skills for long range. It is more economical.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

 

[The Verminator]

The .22 rf makers are all pretty erratic and if you buy more later it may shoot differently.

All in all.........it may be impossible to find perfect ammo that will be consistent.......especially in the current ammo shortage.

They are all pushing product out a little too fast.

 

[stagpanther]

In a very rough, first order consideration, long range accuracy is about time of flight of the projectile. You want to minimize it, by having high MV and high BC.

.22LR is pretty lousy in those 2 departments unfortunately. So it is only fair to compare with other calibers on flight time basis. I would say 100yd for .22lr is similar to 300 to 400yd, if not farther, for, say 30-06. 360yd, my goodness, would be like 1000yd for high power calibers.

I use this method trying to build up my skills for long range. It is more economical.

You're probably right.

On that note, I decided to give the CUrX handloads a second try--I never did try them at anything beyond 75 yards and my first foray did not go well in my CZ's barrel. theoretically, I should be able to get up to and beyond 1700 fps. Problem is, I don't think the conventional rifling in my CZ really engages the solid copper bullet well which has minimal baring surface.

 

[tangolima]

For "long range" I stick to subsonic (standard velocity) ammo, to avoid trans-sonic chaos. Supersonic rounds, my opinion only, are better for "close range" applications that require more power, such as taking out a varmint within 50yd.

-TL

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[stagpanther]

avoid trans-sonic chaos. Supersonic rounds, my opinion only, are better for "close range" applications that require more power, such as taking out a varmint within 50yd.

I think that's where the the different points of view lie--is the transonic destabilization worse than a very slow bullet that might have an unpredictable trajectory as the speed of a slow bullet decays? Is anything at ranges beyond 300 yards really just an exercise in hoping for absolute calm conditions?

 

[Hawg]

I used to have a Marlin 39A I could bust 2 liter Coke bottles with at 200 yards offhand with iron sights. I never could do it with a scoped bolt gun because with the iron sights I could use the barrel itself as part of the front sight.

 

[tangolima]

I think that's where the the different points of view lie--is the transonic destabilization worse than a very slow bullet that might have an unpredictable trajectory as the speed of a slow bullet decays? Is anything at ranges beyond 300 yards really just an exercise in hoping for absolute calm conditions?

That's a good question. One would have to experiment to find out. Most people I have talked to suggest avoiding transonic, which is not well modeled. Standard velocity results in longer flight time, which amplifies small variations into bigger errors. But the behavior is well understood.

300yd for 22lr is pretty much equivalent to 1000yd for high power rounds. It requires much higher skill than I have. I probably will never exceed 200yd myself. Standard velocity will do better, I think. So far 150yd is the longest range I have tried. Aquila standard velocity out performs all supersonics I have.

On my range, it is almost impossible to have no wind to shoot groups. I take it as opportunity to learn to compensate the wind. The objective is to hit the target, clay ducks on the berm, instead of group of holes on paper. I wish I have someone to spot for me. Sometimes the clay ducks chip without breaking. It is rather frustrating to see shots dance around them, and actually they have been hit several times.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

 

[stagpanther]

I've just started experimenting with longer distances in 22 lr--but what I've seen so far makes me doubt the "non-transonic" superior stability theory--at least in an absolute sense at all distances, compared to supers. Or, a better way to put it, as the distances increase the inherent dispersion characteristics of subs "catch up" with the deleterious effects of a super going transonic. I see this in particular in vertical dispersion compared to horizontal (so far). I think that certainly awareness of the wind--or realistically avoidance of any air disturbance of any kind--is absolute key to whichever one you use.

I used to have a Marlin 39A I could bust 2 liter Coke bottles with at 200 yards offhand with iron sights.

I call that great shooting! Did you manage that in any kind of wind?

 

[Dfariswheel]

Back in the 60's I shot club matches at 100 yards and got great groups with Remington Standard Velocity in practice, and really great groups with Eley Match ammo.

Years ago I read an article about "mini sniping" in a English back yard with BB guns and 9mm pistol cases as targets.
That gave me the idea for mini sniping at reduced targets with .22LR at long ranges.

I used a printer to make man-shaped reduced targets simulating a 6 foot man at 1,000 yards.
My rifle was a 50's Remington 40X .22 with a Leupold 12X Target scope.
For ammo I used a .22 micrometer to separate ammo for better accuracy with ordinary Remington Standard Velocity.
This is a micrometer used to gauge the thickness of .22LR case rims to select for uniform sizes.

This was a fun afternoon hobby and on the windy range it required some wind doping.

 

[MarkCO]

I think that's where the the different points of view lie--is the transonic destabilization worse than a very slow bullet that might have an unpredictable trajectory as the speed of a slow bullet decays? Is anything at ranges beyond 300 yards really just an exercise in hoping for absolute calm conditions?

The transonic destabilization on RF is worse than on sleeker centerfire bullets. The small BC with the bulb in the back really wrecks any semblance of stabilization with the tiny slugs. Several folks have shot groups at 200 and 300 yards with both types and have data that supports the destabilization due to transonic. Also, you will find that with most Supersonic loads, the SD is higher than with the match grade subs. There are good reasons why manufacturer
s ceased trying to get supersonics to match grade accuracy. Just too many problems.

Some have reported that the handloaded solids have overcome these issues, but that is an individual, and expensive option for most.

 

[stagpanther]

Some have reported that the handloaded solids have overcome these issues, but that is an individual, and expensive option for most.

I've done some work with hand-loaded solids, out of my conventional twist rifled CZ barrel I've never got any results approaching the accuracy that I can get with a good match factory ammo. My opinion is that you need a completely different barrel with different rifling and twist to get good results with the solids. I've blown the rims/case heads off on more than a few--you're dealing with just tenths to hundredths of a grain or a tight crimp that can result in pressures that breach the case strength.