.22 as defense, revisited..

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Nothing whatever wrong with the Ruger or Buckmark .22 for the purpose described. She can probably learn to shoot it adequately in one afternoon. After that, you are building muscle memory and tactics. This pistol is large enough to hold onto and point well, but small enough to maneuver at fairly close quarters without offering the handhold the 10-22 would.

The Kel Tec P32 is a fine item for concealed carry, far lighter and more compact than any respectable .22 autoloader. But both it and the Tomcat are far harder to shoot accurately than said .22 auto. The S&W 317, ditto. Fine to carry hidden, but where concealability is NOT a factor, why not take the easier-to-shoot and more powerful Buckmark. Colt, High Standard, Ruger--all these will serve as well as Buckmark, but the Browning is economical and readily available. And, three to five .22 LR solids in high chest and face deter aggression far better than a couple of marginal hits with a .32 or .38 pocket piece.

A .22 that she can shoot easily and well will be far more effective than a .38, if she is afraid of recoil and muzzle blast. Most women, unless really into shooting, tire rapidly of the noise and recoil.

Small guns are harder to shoot than larger guns, given the same caliber. A good-size pistol in light caliber is easiest of all. Have her practice with the .22. Remember, a lot of people have problems in doing sufficient practice if 100 rounds of .38s cost over twenty bucks. You can buy 100 .22 LRs for under four dollars.

Then clean it throughly and load it up with good, high-velocity solid point cartridges, and call it good. Take her out to the range every two weeks, or more often. This will furnish pretty good protection until she feels comfortable in moving up to something larger. Like maybe an old, smooth-action four-inch .38.

Please forget the Myotron. It is a special purpose piece of high tech self delusion.

Best wishes to the lady, and, of course, to you.
RR

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---The Second Amendment ensures the rest of the Bill of Rights---
 
The .22 will be fine for a start. My wife's favorite gun is our Ruger .22. I REALLY prefer the Sig .45, but she hates the recoil and gets no benefit from "practicing" with the .45 except learning to flinch better. She also likes a Remington Model 1951 (an antique "pocket pistol") in .32 acp. If we were carrying guns, I'd try to get her to carry that one, but the .22 is good too.

No handgun is going to "knock him back," is it? Let her use what she feels good with. A NASCAR would be a safe and fast way to get to work, but not everyone can drive one.
 
10 or 11 shots from a .22 sound great. Until:
You're in a high stress situation,fast shallow breathing, sweaty palms and shakey hands and the awful *click* instead of bang. Unless the Buckmark is of the newer style with the ears on the slide, it is impossible to work the slide to clear. Wet your hands and try it. The Rugers? Nope. the enclosed chamber area plus the design of the magazine well make them only about 95%. If you REALLY want to know, rip of the extractor. S&* 22s/22a? Nope, same problem as the Buckmarks-poor grip area on the slide. My number one choice is the Ciener .22 conversion on the Kimber. Big slide for a good purchase, easy to recock in case of a FTF, and presents itself in appearance as a stock 1911. Most .22s are good plinkers, but for HD IMNSHO, you have to really start scratching under the surface and look at the entire picture. .22 revolvers may be an option, but the problem with the lighter ones is the tendancy for them to wander around in rapid fire using a D/A pull. Unless you are pushing your GF, wife or other small framed person to do a lot of heavy excercise to induce a lot of "the shakes" before a shooting session, you better rethink your choices. Base it more on an *everthing that can go wrong, has gone wrong* scenerio. Ammunition is another consideration. *tricked out rounds* such as the pre-frags and hyper-velocity are great in theory, but fail to feed in a number of instances. The longer case of the hyper-velocity rounds makes them hang in the chamber some times. One of the nastiest jams in the world to clear is a stuck .22 round-been there, done that,,,many times, but NEVER in a high stress situation. Pre-frags seperate after impact. Great for pests, but terrible for multiple hit trama. A good solid point is much better.

just my .02 based on a hundred K or so of .22's.
 
I'd suggest a Pre-Agreement 4" K frame .22 loaded with Winchester Power Points.
The 40 grain Power Points have expanded reliably for me at pistol velocities. Even if they don't expand, you still have the advantage of shooting a 40 gr bullet as opposed to most hollow points, which are 36 grains.
Also the revolver has no safety to fumble with or to forget about when under stress, simply point and squeeze.
This is the most important issue, IMHO.
 
I have a couple of recomendations for small hands, first try to find a .32 S&W Long I-Frame (Mod 31) it is a very small gun with the original grips (got mine for $100 in great shape) or if you dont mind hand loading some rounds up get an old S&W break top (3rd or 4th gen) these have TINY grips and shoot .38 S&W mostly you may find one in 32 S&W also, and both are of course made well before the brits bought S&W
 
With proper training and the right loads she should be able to handle a .38 or 9mm.

Shoot .22 for fun and practice. Unless you are confident that you will have the presence of mind to make head shots- forget it.
 
I don't disagree that the .22 is a killer, but it's not much of a "stopper". My wife has a .32 H&R Mag snubby, small size, mild recoil, and a much more effective caliber. While you make scare a majority of attackers off with a .22, if you have to shoot at an armed assailant, you are unlikely to survive the incident, the .22 just won't end the fight quickly enough.
 
I guess it's time to check out the .32's.

I noticed that the Browning Buckmark Camper was hard was hell to cock. The Standard was a bit better, it's got little grooves so you can pull it easier.

Still, I think a .22 is better than nothing, and when you pull the trigger, it still goes BANG! and I think it's more of a combo of brandishing and squeezing a round off that scares a prep. If not, then I'm hoping the first shot is in the eye...

For myself, I'm thinking a nice jacketed hollow point 180 grain .40 will do quite nice...

Maybe I'll have to get an Steyr M9. I hear that the recoil on that is like a pellet gun. Or even the S9 when they come out. It's small and should fit her hand. If it's true, then I think we all agree 11 shots of 9mm is MUCH more effective than a .22.

Still, .22's kill. And given a choice of .22 or nothing at all, I'd choose a .22 anyday (and so would all of you).

I'll take a serious look at the Kel-Tec .32 though.

Thanks!
Albert
 
twoblink,
I know at times it seems I talk out of two sides of my mouth (right Oleg?). Point is, as the size of the caliber goes down, the number of things to consider goes up. My wife loves her Buckmark Micro, and while I would feel a world better if she would take a similar liking to a 1911, it probobly isn't going to happen. I just make sure I do my part to remind her of the drawbacks, without creating any doubts in her mind. Confidence is number 1, with skill being number 2. I would rather she had confidence in her ability to hit with the .22, than doubts about something larger. The biggest advantage with the .22 is the cheap practice. Don't overlook them entirely, but consider them as a possible stepping stone to something better. If something better ain't gonna happen, then make sure the .22 is as Murphy free as possible. Good luck and good shooting.
 
I have gone through several .22 pistols:
- Ruger Mk1 (not reliable feeder)
- Taurus M94 9-shot revolver (broke transfer bar at once)
- Colt .22 (Cadet?) not areliable feeder and sights kept breaking off
- S&W2206 (not reliable feeder, light strikes, no extraction)
-S&W22A, a friend's gun (not reliable in feeding or going into battery, impossible to grasp the slide without putting tape on it)

My fav .22 is an old K17 S&W...but it has countersunk chambers and extraction is sticky unless undersized ammo (Winchester Wildcat or similar) is used. It is harly a great defensive gun.

I finally found a reliable .22: standard slabside Buckmark, 5 1/2" barrel. The sights aren't perfect but it has been 100% reliable with all ammo I fed through it. Every sort of good, bad and really dirty .22 and it kept going...I generally clean it every 750-1000 rounds but I do it mostly to keep the rust away. It is synthetic, takes down easily and fast and is easy to clean. Important parts like safety and firing pin are very robust.

It isn't perfect, but I feel it is a marginally adequate in-house weapon rather than a useless POS like some of my previous guns. YMMV, but IMO it is a bargain (I paid $219 with two mags, $19 for a spare mag) for the reliability and accuracy.

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Oleg "peacemonger" Volk

http://dd-b.net/RKBA
 
Greetings,

Like Oleg, I just got a Buck Mark. The first time I took it to the range it fired 450 shots total with no failures to feed, all out of the same mag, all very, very accurate. (Winchester Hi-Velocity) Much more reliable than my Ruger MkII. FWIW, both guns operate better if they are not overlubricated.

Good luck,

Ledbetter

[This message has been edited by Ledbetter (edited August 16, 2000).]
 
Firearms Tactical Institute at www.firearmstactical.com recommends that if you use a .22 for defense, it should be a revolver. This is due to the reliability problems with rimfire ammunition. I have found that about one or two in every brick has a bad primer, not many, but enough to make a problem in an autoloader if they popped up at the wrong time. With a revolver you just pull the trigger again.
 
I have had no duds yet with CCI Mini-Mags or Maxi-Mags. Lots of duds with some Remington ammo and PMC. Winchester cheapo ammo is surprisingly reliable.
 
twoblink:
Have you pursued finding a firearms instructor that has experience teaching women? I've seen some pretty slight women handle 9mm and .380 handguns without much trouble after getting some coaching from someone who is used to teaching women and novices. Hopefully you can find one that will let her try several handgun types before y'all buy anything.

Also, I'm not sure how close you come to the spouse-instructor problem, since she is your girlfriend. From everything that I've seen, spouses make the WORST instructors for their other half.

My personal opinion is that the secure closet idea is not a good alternative unless the girlfriend is of the nature that she can't muster the mental decision to shoot an evildoer. Even then, I'd harden the "outer perimeter" first.


I'd rather have a good security door in place of the storm door that let's you open the main door and tell the salesman "no thank you" through the deadbolt locked security bars. No, you never get away from the jailhouse look. It does make entry options less easy for a home invasion. (if you keep it locked!!) Anyone forcing their way through the doors or a window should make a good bit of noise. Hopefully enough so the lady can get whatever firearm and catch them in the fatal funnel at a disadvantage. Doom on you, bad guys!

Anyway, hope this was some good food for thought.

Edmund
 
hehehe, I've asked her. Honey, if someone broke in, would you shoot him?

She stares at me "Me? Shot him? Because he broke in?"

Yes dear, would you have the guts.

"I'd cap his A$$!" crooked smile and all... That's my girl!!!

I'm thinking that she might be able to (with some training) handle a 9mm. Somthing like a Steyr S9, small, yet soft to shoot. That with some BeeSafe shots from Corbon... That might actually be realistic.

From the Towert charts, there's a huge difference between the .22 and the .32ACP.

Albert
 
You have had some very good advice here. The only thing I can add is along the line of Edmund's. An instructor with experience in teaching women or (dare I say it?) children to shoot handguns. When my son was 10 or 11 years old he was shooting every pistol I had and he was a lot smaller than the average woman. Recoil tolerance can be learned and hearing protection is a necessity. The important thing is that she ends up with a handgun she is able to use enough to get good with it.And with good comes confident!

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You have to be there when it's all over. Otherwise you can't say "I told you so."

Better days to be,

Ed
 
I will reiterate my former statement. I prefer large calibers but at times a 22 is all that can be used.
The Hanned line sells a tool that removes the round ogive from a 22 bullet gives it a more efficient flat nose. I have used them on small game and they work very well. A squirrel hit with a normal 22 round will have a burst of activity before he expires. When they are hit with the modified 22 round it seems to knock them senseless and there is little or no activity after impact.
I know BGs are bigger than squirrels but the 22 is a better defense round than it is given credit for. I helped carry a woman to an ambulance that had been shot in the abdomen with a 22 and she will confirm the effectiveness of a 22 round.
I carry a Taurus ultralite revolver and truly believe that if I do my part and place the shots accurately it will be sufficient for defense.
BGs can be unstoppable taking full mags of 45 HPs and continuing their attacks. But my point is that a 22 in the pocket is better than a 44 in the gun safe.

[This message has been edited by REast (edited August 17, 2000).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Edmund Rowe:
I'd harden the "outer perimeter" first.
[/quote]

Well said. All too often we think that if we are armed, we have solved the home-invasion scenario. As you point out, though, having a weapon is only a part of the solution.

The MO for most home invasions goes something like this: Bad guys ring the doorbell, poor unsuspecting good-guy opens the door, bad guys force the door open and begin to commit felonies.

I agree that a security door, good lighting, window locks, and a dog are more effective at deterring a home invasion than any firearm! When the excrement hits the impeller, though, I'd prefer to be armed anyway.
 
Howdy,
I bought my wife a Beretta m-21 bobcat .22 she likes shooting it however she had a hard time with the slide,you can flip up the barrel and because its doubl action just start banging away,However because of the slide I switched her to a Smith and Wesson .38spl hammerless 2" . With the Hogue grip and a slight trigger Mod she feels comfortable with it it can't get hung up when she carries it and it has plenty of stopping power.

Regardless of what weapon you GF carries, she must TRAIN,TRAIN,TRAIN if she needs her gun the training will save her life, she can cry after,we all would
 
Well MisDemeanors is about the same size as your SO and she was shooting 1911's and AR's at the EOSM this last weekend.

Grip size and trigger reach can be problems, but a 1911 or similar gun with a short trigger will often work...if the operator can work the slide.

Or try a 38 special, I recomend the Federal 38 Special 125 Nyclad HP load [P38M is the order number] for low recoil defense load...it is a standard pressure load. I shot a few last weekend myself.
 
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