.22 as defense, revisited..

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twoblink

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A slight offshoot from the thread started by REast...

Do hollowpoints on the .22's make that big of a difference? I'm not too sure about the effectiveness when the bullet is that size, anybody know?

Also, I read an article in a magazine today, that talked about a "secure closet". Basically someplace to run and hide (and keep a gun) in case you have a home invasion while you are home.

My girlfriend is very petite. I took her to the range, and she can't handle a 9mm. Her hands are very small, and the only thing she can shoot is basically a .22. So I'm thinking that would be OK, a 22/45 or a Buckmark with 11. The only problem is that if she's hiding in the "secure closet", then the perp is going to be only about 5 feet away, and so she won't be able to squeeze off that many shots before he gets to her, and even if she does, he won't be stopped or knocked back. Sure he'll probably bleed to death, but maybe not before he does some harm to her.

So I'm thinking of getting her a http://www.selfdefence.com/myotron.htm
Pulse Wave Myotron. Do you guys think that is a better method of close quarters defense than a .22?

Or does the brandishing of a gun have more detering power, even though I KNOW a myotron will drop the guy on contact...

Your thoughts!!!

Albert
 
IMHO, the 22 hollow points have become popular lately so the manufacturer can save on 4 grains of lead.
 
Keep in mind that a Buckmark can be emptied of its eleven rounds in very slightly over a second, from retension. At contact, muzzle blast would do some damage, too.

Myotron looks like a good way for your GF to get killed in the process of trying to use it. It requires 1)batteries and 2)contact with the perp. I'd take a .22 Short Astra cub over it.

As for ammo, if her Buckmark can feed CCI +V ammo, it might be a good choice (flat point 40gr). I also had decent results with Remington Golden Bullets (clean, reliable, RN or HP) and Mini-mags. I really do not think that any 36-40gr bullet would be much worse or better than another...just make sure the user has practice and can fire fast.

Also, whichever room she is in can be a "secure closet" in its own right -- just aim at the door while standing to the side of it. Anyone comes in doesn't necesserily sees the occupant at first glance. Makes shooting harder than straight on but gives more time.

I am hoping my mother can upgrade to a .32acp or a .22WMR (M1 carbine is too heavy for her) but that isn't likely at this time...hence the reliance on the rate of fire.


[This message has been edited by Oleg Volk (edited August 13, 2000).]
 
Wounds caused by .22 cal. lead bullets are
terrible because of extreme bullet deformation. The only real disadvantage of .22 LR is that it may not penetrate heavy clothes as reliably as larger caliber FMJ.
Do not forget that professionals of a certain nature use .22 cal. pistols as their
primary weapon. The greatest advantage of .22
is that a trained shooter can deliver 3-4
aimed shot string at the target in 2-3 seconds, which is sufficient to drop the target, while it's not practically possible to duplicate the same accuracy in 3-4 shot string with .45 or even 9 mm unless pistol has serious means of recoil compensation.
 
Has your girlfriend tried a Kel-Tec P-32 or a Beretta Tomcat? These are very small gurns with small trigger reach, and not much recoil. Their statistical stopping power is about twice the .22

Maybe you have a range in town that'll rent you a Tomcat? Or have a friend that will let you try a P-32?

I'd at least give those a try before settling for a .22

That said, I agree with what others have said. A .22 can be effective defense if practice enables good shot placement and rapid firing.
 
Twoblink,

Like Oleg, I too would prefer a weapon that can be used from further away than arms length. As for the secure closet, forget it, the secure room is a better idea. I'd hate to be trapped inside a closet with a bad guy just outside. Especially if he figures out that I'm in there. He knows precisely where I am but I have no real certainty as to his location. Using a room affords more options for hiding or strategicly locating myself to have the tactical advantage (even if it's only for a second or two).

The .22 could work for defense, however, due to the small and weak nature of the bullet, it may not stop the bad guy soon enough. Granted, in most situations, just the sight of a gun will end the confrontation but I wouldn't want to take the chance if I didn't have to. Now, I don't subscribe to the "It's gotta be a super magnum or nothing" philosophy, but I do belive in using the most powerful caliber that can be used quickly, and effectively.

If your girlfriend has small hands and a small build, you may want to consider something like one of the single stack Beretta .380 pistols (I think they are the model 85, and 86 or maybe 87). They offer a small grip (smaller than a 22/45 which is the same size as a 1911's) and the increased effectiveness of .380 over the .22. Other guns with small grips are the FEG and Bersa .380 pistols(both sell for about $200 and are decent little guns) as well as the pricier but very nice Walther PPK and PPK/S. Another option would be a revolver chambered for the .32 H&R magnum cartridge. These are usually small frame revolvers. H&R makes some and Ruger has a couple really nice ones with 3 and 4 inch barrels. The grips on these are small enough for my 5'2" girlfriend to handle with ease. Effectiveness is a little less than .38 special but with much less recoil. Plus revolvers are very simple to operate. Just point and squeeze. No need to worry about racking the slide, disengaging the safety, or clearing a jam or misfire.
Whatever you choose, be sure that your girlfriend gets to practice with it alot so that she is totally confident and proficient in all aspects of handling and operating it. Also, be sure that it functions 100% in her hands with whatever ammo you decide to use for defense.

Good luck with whatever you decide upon and I hope that you never NEED to use it.
 
I recognize that I am probably in the very small minority here - but I would give a fair amount of support to the .22 RF, in a reliable full sized handgun. (Ruger Standard Auto?) If you're talking about a "safe closet (or room)" you are not considering concealment (i.e., not a .22 short from a 1 inch or less barrel.) You want something that is maneuverable, but with sufficient barrel length to milk something out of the .22 LR. Say something with a 4 to 6 inch barrel length.

Before I get into this - let me say that I do think "bigger is better". I favor a .45 and if I'm ever in Idaho would make it a point to visit Elmer Keith's grave. I'm a great fan of Jeff Cooper even though he thought more of the .22 jet than I've been able to.

I also remember Mr. Hinkley dropping three grown men in a second or so with a "pip-squeak" short barreled .22. (Yes, I think there was some luck there, plus the element of surprise.)

Stopping power.

For stopping power, a .22 is analogous to the .410 shotgun. It is an expert’s gun. Practice, skill and precise placement. Still, a .410 is the shotgun many youngsters are started out with. They can handle it and it doesn't beat them to death. Upon mastery (or just getting used to it) they move on up to larger gages and generally don't come back to the .410 until they are really good and need the challenge. Plus while they're learning, many of them get a bird or two (or rabbit, squirrel or clay pigeon). But it will not generally be the stopper on geese, deer, or long range ducks that a 12 gage would.

Better the mouse in the pocket than the lion in the gun safe. With all due respect to Mr. Cooper, Mr. Jordan, Mr. Keith, et alia – None of them were 4’11” and 85 pounds and lacking in a good grip and upper body strength. All of them became used to firearms, noise, and the concepts of violence and death associated with firearms. As does any hunter.

I don’t know about their childhood, but I expect none of them have been in the situation analogous to that of an elfin girl hunkered down in a closet with a potentially lethal threat outside and only a (relatively) diminutive firearm – with which she is not all that familiar - for protection.

I’ve taken a fair amount of game with a .22. Some of it quite large. (FWIW, I don’t think hollow points do any better job than do solids.) I don’t think a .22 would be my choice to stop a charging wild boar – but if one was snuffling around and I had the element of surprise, I expect he’d be sausage.

My advice – talk to her about the concepts of self-worth, self-defense and the responsibility to protect herself and others. The mind-set is probably more important than the caliber. Talk to her about what to do when something goes bump in the night – then talk it out again – different variation.

Get her (or have her get) the .22 of her choice – Buckmark, Ruger, Sig Trailside, whatever. Something she likes, something she can handle, something she can have fun with. Practice with her. You can get a brick of .22 ammo for about 12 – 15 dollars. Six bricks a month is about $3 a dollars a day for a hundred rounds of practice – that’s 7 days a week of practice. Practice doesn’t need to be every day – but it should be as often as you can squeeze it in. If she’s like most women I’ve run across, with some practice she’ll be able to out shoot you in short order. Encourage her to practice enough to really clean your plow in competition (and to know her gun really, really well). We want confidence here. Make it fun.

All in good time she’ll probably be able to (want to?) play around with larger calibers. I once knew a slip of a girl – about 14, 75 pounds tops – who could do really, really well with a 70 pound draw weight bow. But she didn’t come to that overnight. In the meantime – try to make it as much fun as possible for her to become an expert with the .22.

Accuracy and tactics.

My $0.02 worth.


------------------
Jim Fox
 
Ruger 10/22, folding stock and a hundred round mag plus an xtra or two in the 'safe' place...CCI mini-mags. Hide behind the bed or in the closet and unload the weapon into the goblin. As long as she's shooting they aint hanging around.

Maybe a NAA .22 mag on person for backup.
 
JimFox is very much correct when he says .22
cal. pistols is an expert's gun. Just to add
a bit to his excellent post in regard to specific recommendation for all around pistol
and load - in my opinion, it is Ruger MK-4B,
with 4" bull barrel + CCI Stingers. It's a very well balanced handgun, and Stinger is not just a relatively hot load, but it's also sealed pretty good against moisture and
in my experience, provides 100% functioning
in blowback pistols.
 
It is tough. I completely agree with all of you, that a bigger hole in the prep is better. BUT, I seriously doubt any of you are 5'4", 112lbs, wear a size 5 shoes, a size 1 dress, and has a hand as small as her.

Maybe the 32's might be good. Time to hit the range and see what she can "effectively" handle. She shot a 9mm, and hit the target on the OTHER lane. That's how far off she was, almost dropped the gun. So unless I can find something with recoil she can handle, a .22 might have to be it.

Although I have to say, shooting my 10/22 rifle, I can empty the entire thing in a little less than 2 seconds...

Thanks
Albert.
 
For a brief period financial considerations left me with no defense gun but a *&* 422 6-inch barreled popgun that I borrowed from my pookie. You'd better cool believe I spent some time practicing emptying that magazine full of Remington Yellowjackets into as small a chunk of space and time as possible.

Anybody played around with the QuikShok .22LR's yet? These seem ideal for .22 pistol use as they tend to delay fragmentation longer than the centerfire calibers of the same name...

------------------
"..but never ever Fear. Fear is for the enemy. Fear and Bullets."
10mm: It's not the size of the Dawg in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!
 
The .22 Quick-Shock is an awesome round...

For your purposes I agree with the folding stock 10-22 and a RELIABLE large capacity magazine or three. Most of us know however that 100% reliable and large capacity magazines for the 10-22 are not often found in the same magazine.

------------------
Talk is cheap; Free Speech is NOT.
 
How about a .38 special loaded down to suit her? I have shot very mild .38 wadcutters which a 5' 90# woman could handle. She would not have to change guns to use a more powerful round, just change ammo.
 
twoblink, if you or she have no other option, then go with the .22 but I do implore you to move up to at least the .32 or a .38 special. I've a little 2" Rossi snubnose in .38spl and am very happy with it.
 
If she has really small hands a small grip revolver would work well. You might try looking at some of the Taurus or Ruger revolvers. I have an older Security Six that has a pretty small stock grip. It is also heavy enough that it absorbs recoil pretty well. Sometimes getting the smallest gun possible isn't the best thing, since they don't have the mass to stabilize the recoil. Shooting mine with mild .38's is really not much more recoil than shooting my Ruger MK II with .22's. It is much louder, but the recoil really isn't that bad. A revolver is also very easy to use. As others have suggested you can look at revolvers in .32 H&R .22WMR or .38 or .22LR if she really only feels comfortable shooting the .22

For house use you might also look at a .20 gauge or .410 pump like a Mossberg 500 or Remington 870

- Makarov
 
I do believe that seeing a gun is part of the intimidation. Believing you will use it is the rest. Back to the first though. I recently saw a 22 that would scare the hell out of any bg at first glance. The Raging Hornet by taurus. Looks like the took the 454 cassul frame, and made it fire 22. Boy does it look cool. That would be the one I would chose if my wife couldn't shoot my 40's. Of course really in my opinion, it should be a 12 gauge pump for home defense. If the guy is going to be 5 feet away, you can't miss, and the only reason you would need a follow up shot would be if there were two of them. Also you could brace it against the floor, or hip fire it. So all you have to do is hang on.
 
Wow, sorry I sugguested the raging hornet. Just looked it up, and it was insanely price. Almost 900 bucks retail.
 
SW's new 317s if she has strength enough to pull DA triggers. Model 63s and 34s seem to have better triggers than there alloy counterparts, but they weigh more.
 
Lot's of variety here. At least .22 practice can get a shooter's chops on for secure grip, trigger pull, etc. in a most inexpensive manner.

Look at it this way, would anyone really want to be on the business end of a .22? I sure as hell wouldn't--it'll kill as surely as a .45.
 
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