22-250 Cal. for Whitetail

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Jason, If that whole energy dump theory is a fallacy, then why can blunt force trama in a car accident kill you? Something has to impart energy to those vital organs to inflict damage. That's also why hunting with FMJs is taboo in most states: the bullet would just pass through and not impart enough energy to cause enough damage to vital organs to make a humane kill. If you punch one through the lungs and make a .224 caliber hole only, will the animal die? More than likely, but after a long suffering period. Now, expand that bullet, transfer that energy into the surrounding tissue, get a larger wound channel, now you're really making hamburger. The animal is going to die faster.

Hypothetical here, not really meaning to impose harm to you. I shoot you with a .22 in the stomach. Are you going to die right away? Now I do the same with a .50BMG. You become twice the person you were initially with part of you here and part of you there. Why? Energy.

This is why bullet selection for the 22-250 would be important. Super frangible bullets designed for varmit hunting, made to almost fragment when hitting that prarie dog, might not get the penetration you want because it would expand too fast and act more like a high energy slap on a deer vs a SP bullet that would get the penetration and transfer that energy into the vitals.

I think I need to find a geek smily for myself. I'm having flashbacks of engineering classes!!!!!
 
Shock

Shock is one major factor in the kill when using the 22-250 Cal.Every Deer that I have killed with this Cal. also had major tissue damage. This is another reason for selective shot placement. A shot in the shoulder can turn it to JELL. I started this thread and I do use the 22-250 as well as several other Calbers for whitetail. After forty plus years of hunting I was amazed at the fact that one well placed shot from A 22-250 would put the deer down on the spot almost every time, A feat I seldom accomplished on A regular basis with the bigger Cal. rifles that I had always used. I will say I realize the 22-250 is not the perfect deer rifle and its not the gun of choice for most, but it does have A place in the deer woods. My hat is off to GLOBEMASTER 3 he has it figured out (engineer I think). Suppose you were holding A large sand Bag to your chest and someone shot it with A bullet traveling over 4,000 feet per second and the sand stopped the bullet. You and the sand bag would absorb that energy. I can't say what that would be like but i'm sure the results would be not be pleasant. Thanks for all the imput guys.
 
Gentlemen,

I believe what you are calling 'shock' or 'energy transfer' is actually the tearing of tissue stretched by the temporary cavity; with rifle bullets that operate above about 2200 fps, this is caused by either yaw (the bullet turning or tumbling off-axis in the target) or fragmentation- which lacerates the tissue as it is being stretched, and sometimes adds secondary wound paths via bone or bullet fragments.

It is my opinion that the best expanding bullets for hunting rifles are those which offer a large wound path that exits the body. The result is a good blood trail that is usually very short. If you can pick your shots and make that happen with your .22 centerfire, more power to you.
 
Sarge, rule #1 I learned as a newly minted new LT: listen to your NCOs. I believe you are hitting the nail on the head. Multiple ways of saying the same thing between shock and energy tranfer. Unfortunately mine is probably more geekish. But, many fallacies exist and like your signature, I like to challenge them with truth. I agree with your wound channel assessment. Instead of fragmentation, more like deformation, or mushrooming. Agree?
 
I agree, and the whole tumbling thing is a myth...unless you are shooting FMJ's which might tumble. http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233844&highlight=tissue+damage+from+22-250 see this link, not sure how to post the link, so if anyone does, please learn me:D..Anyway, this is the actual tissue damage from a buck I shot w/ a 22-250, 55 gr. bullet. I forget the distance, but it was approx. 120-150 tops. search my post using tissue damage and it will take you straight to it. I posted this on 9-25-2007 from a deer I shot in Jan. of '07.
 
castnblast

expanding bullets will also tumble. I couldnt tell you how many fully expanded pistol rounds I have seen stopped completly backwards or sideways. As for fmjs "might" tumbleing, it is more like they might not tumble if they are shot through a thin enough target. For some reason I cann't explain weight to width also plays a part in fmjs tumbleing. For some reason 9mm 147s will not tumble for me especialy if they are truncated fmjs. 230 grain fmj 45s will not tumble for me and 95 grain 9mm Makarov fmj will not tumble for me. When I shoot 22lr solids from a pistol they tumble and expand from a rifle. When the rounds do not tumble they penetrate straight on and crush bone and keep going fairly straight. Round nose fmjs (most experience with 9mm) like 115s and 124s will tumble and change direction a little.

I do not have a link to some scientific site or fancy numbers for everyone to crunch. All I got is a pile of dead critters shot with lots of different kinds of ammo.

As for energy dump not killing. I have seen dead people killed by massive explosions that had no penetration of any projectile or shrapnel to the body have their insides jellified. Their skin over the abdomen tore when we moved him and his insides poured out all over. Energy does kill, you just need alot of it and it needs to be dumped fast. Handguns won't do it, and rifles need the right bullet and velocity to maybe do it............
 
Jason, If that whole energy dump theory is a fallacy, then why can blunt force trama in a car accident kill you?
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Because of momentum.

A bullet that doesn't pass through isn't going to do any more damage than a through-and-through, all other things being equal. In fact, it's probably worse, practically speaking. An animal with two leaks might drop faster than an animal with one.

Jason
 
What about the deaths from law enforcement and military personnel being shot with their Kevlar on. No bullet penetration but blunt force trauma damaged the internal organs.

Expanding bullets are designed to do just that. Expand and release as much energy in a specific amount of time in order to do as much damage as possible.

The release of energy by a bullet into the target area is a very important part of bullet design.

Heres a link to Barnes Bullets FAQ. Some very interesting stuff that applies to this thread. Notice how they describe the opening of the bullet and the hydraulic pressure creating a massive wound channel. That's the release of energy people are trying to describe. Also on the home page there's a short video of the Triple Shock. It shows the expansion and the pushing of tissue out of the way, not by the bullet, but by the pressures and energy.

http://www.barnesbullets.com/information/bullet-talk/faq/


Again, as it's been stated before. Bullet selection is critical in smaller caliber firearms. I could not find a factory load for the 22-250 to use for whitetail. Everything on the shelf from Remington, Federal, Winchester, and Hornady were labeled Varmint. To me, a bullet labeled Varmint or Varminter means it will likely fragment. I don't trust them and everything I've read indicates as much. I had to hand load with a bullet designed to expand and hold together for maximum energy transfer.

I personally shot a decent buck last year with the hand loaded 55 gr Sierra Game King. The deer went 40 yards and fell over. The shot entered right behind the shoulder and was found just beneath the skin behind the opposite shoulder. The lungs, diaphragm, liver, and stomach were all mush. Down side is there was NO blood trail. A bad shot with this load = a lost deer. It's the person pulling the trigger who matters the most when it comes to using smaller caliber bullets.
 
What about the deaths from law enforcement and military personnel being shot with their Kevlar on. No bullet penetration but blunt force trauma damaged the internal organs.
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Most people walk away from those.
I think some folks are confusing this energy dump fallacy with the simple transfer of energy. Obviously there has to be kinetic energy to drive the bullet through the animal, so there is an important energy transfer, but no energy "dump".

In the case of blunt force trauma, which everyone keeps mentioning, it is the force due to the momentum of the projectile that causes crushing beneath the impact area. Kind of apples and oranges.

The thing I am calling a fallacy is this idea that it is better for a bullet to not completely penetrate (as in a through-and-through) an animal. Some folks think that if a bullet doesn't make it through that it has wounded the animal more seriously. If you want to see the invalidity of the argument, consider this: I can shoot a deer with one round of .30-06 that will penetrate completely through the deer, or another round of "special" .30-06 that will enter, but not exit the deer, expending all of its energy in the animal (i.e. complete "energy dump"). Assume all other things are equal about the bullets. Which do you think has created the greater wound in the animal, the one that "spent" its energy in the animal, but didn't penetrate, or the .30-06 that expended only a portion of its energy, but kept going, making a complete wound tract all the way through the animal?
I'll take the through and through.

Jason
 
I think either one of these shots would kill the animal. So why is one the best? Each has its pros and cons. Suppose the shot that travels through the deer has its course altered and hits an object that it should have not. Suppose the bullet that stops inside the deer ruined most of the meat? I know "this is nonsense" but the point I am making is that one should consider the possible results when making his or her choice of Cal. and Bullets. I think Jason has made an excellent point, thanks
 
Jason, in this case, momentum = energy.;) It takes energy to make the bullet travel and penetrate. It takes energy to force the bullet to expand. In a perfect world, with a perfect bullet, it would continue to expand and transfer more energy into the animal creating more tissue damage.

Now, do I think your 30'06 passing completely through the animal caused more damage as you summize? I don't know, too many variables. What bullet are you shooting? Lets assume a medium sized deer ~ 150 pounds and same velocity for all bullets with same weight. If you are shooting a solid, no, I don't think you did much damage. If you shot a slowly expanding bullet, you did more, but not much. If you shot a medium expanding bullet, you did more damage, getting closer to optimum. If you shot a polymer tipped bullet like a nosler ballistic tip, you got even more expansion and more damage. Now, if you shoot a varmit bullet at it, now you've fallen to the other side of the curve and you begin doing less damage because it transfers the energy too quickly and doesn't do it to the vitals.

Is it purely the bullet itself? That has a lot to do with it, many will say yes without considering all the other parts, but no. Velocity plays a part and so does bullet weight. Hey, mass X velocity (or substitute acceleration) = momentum (or energy). But, you need to use the right bullet to transfer this energy.

I think the horse quit breathing. Call it whatever you want. Momentum, shock, energy transfer, energy dump (your term, not mine), but realize that if the bullet did X damage passing all the way through, imagine the more damage it could do if there was a way to make it continue inside the animal for the distance it went beyond it.

Its been a great discussion and made me shake the dust off my 14 year old degree, But, I need to put my TI calculator away...:barf:
 
There is no perfect bullet or firearm of any caliber for every shot. It has not been made and until it does we'll still be around having discussions like this one. :D

However, until THE GUN is made we'll still have to rely on our shooting skills and our own personal judgment when taking shots.
 
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Dang, lots of theories about energy xfer, or not as some say.
I know this as a hunter. If I want an animal to drop in his tracks(despite the damage), then I hit him dead in the shoulder. If it's flat ground and it doesn't matter if he runs a couple hundred yards then I will shoot him right behind the shoulder.
Most of the Western hunters like myself will always agree w/ this.
The main reason is that you do two things w/ the shoulder shot.
First you have xferred all of your bullets' energy into the animal with little to no chance of an exit wound.
Secondly, you are probably creating greater tissue damage due to the fragmentation of the shoulder bone.
Other than taking an animals' nervous system out of the loop(brain or spinal cord), you will never do more damage than what I've said.
I believe in the energy dump theory but recognize that the result of said has to be tissue damage via shock wave or vital organ penetration. This is why my past experience with silvertips was poor performance as they did not penetrate beyond skin/hide depth. Also, the act of blowing up on the surface area allows the bullets' energy to richocet off rather than xfer.

elkman06
 
I think the horse quit breathing. Call it whatever you want. Momentum, shock, energy transfer, energy dump (your term, not mine), but realize that if the bullet did X damage passing all the way through, imagine the more damage it could do if there was a way to make it continue inside the animal for the distance it went beyond it.
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But it won't. That's the point. For a bullet to be stopped in the animal, it either didn't have enough energy to pass through, or was slowed by a mechanical means, like expansion of a hollow point, etc. I was assuming FMJ's in my argument, just for simplicity's sake. It sounds like you have expanding bullets in mind. If that's the case, then "energy dump" is still a non-wounding factor. Where does everyone think that the energy that is used to deform the bullet is coming from? From the bullet. That "extra" energy (the energy that would've propelled our FMJ on through the animal) is now being used to deform a piece of lead. Now, the trade off is that the bullet is getting bigger, making a bigger hole. That is good, and does increase wounding potential, but it is because the bullet is now bigger in diameter. The fact that the bullet stops inside the animal means nada.

Jason
 
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I was told by a 80+ year old man back in the early 1980's that grew up with old indian hunters in eastern Oregon that his choice was always the top of the shoulder if he could get a side shot. This insures that one or both shoulders are fractured, and if placed on the money, that the spine was shattered as well. You get one of the three and the animal won't get far he would say. I can still hear his voice. He sounded EXACTLY like Festus on Gunsmoke.

My grandpa hunted with old Clarence from the late 1940's until the mid 1980's and said he killed plenty of deer and elk that way. Granted, Clarence had years of experience and plenty of talent. They both bought Remington pumps when they came out. Grandpa opted for .30-06 and Clarence for the .270. Grandpa cussed that .270 because for the area we all hunted (Mt. Emily in the Blue Mountains) a flat shooter can be a plus. I think Clarence was just a better shot! I saw him shoot a chukar (no rest, freestanding) from a good 300 yards once. You never could keep up with that old man. I was a pretty good distance runner in the early eighties. Clarence could outwalk me.

Grandpa Marvin passed on in 1990 or so at age 70. It seemed that half the town of Hermiston showed up to me. Grandpa was more well known than some I guess, he did build alot of homes there over the years. I'll always remember old Clarence walking up to the mortuary in his Sunday suit (not that he went to church much as far as I knew). It was 100 degrees out and since his license was revoked he had walked 3 miles from his house to pay his respect to his best friend. He passed on not too long after, I think he was 96 when he died. I guess he was exposed to some pesticide while spraying his crops and never fully recovered from a stroke brought on by the poisoning.

Sorry for going off topic. Haven't thought of those two lately. I wish we hadn't lived half a state away from them. Could have learnt (as they both would say) so much more.
 
I think the horse quit breathing. Call it whatever you want. Momentum, shock, energy transfer, energy dump (your term, not mine), but realize that if the bullet did X damage passing all the way through, imagine the more damage it could do if there was a way to make it continue inside the animal for the distance it went beyond it.
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A fractured shoulder does often make for a quick kill. Most that I've killed DRT were because shoulder bone ended up hitting the spine or going through the thoracic cavity.

Jason
 
Could someone explain to me how a bomb in close proximity can kill you w/o causing a wound cavity? Assuming the energy dump fallacy then I should not die as the shock value doesn't exist sans wound cavity.
elkman06
 
Could someone explain to me how a bomb in close proximity can kill you w/o causing a wound cavity? Assuming the energy dump fallacy then I should not die as the shock value doesn't exist sans wound cavity.
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You're comparing a nuke to a tackdriver.

Energy dump as a wounding factor is a myth for most modern firearms. A bomb is going to be releasing much more energy. Different scenario.

Jason
 
Inspector- Off-topic or not, I sure enjoyed reading it.

I'm a big believer in the shoulder shot myself. I have always liked the older cartridges, and practiced with them to the limits of their effective range. I flattened a 185 pound forkhorn with a .30-30 Silvertip a few years ago, at 238 long steps. That bullet knocked a chunk of shoulder bone out the exit that was as big as a nickel. Of course probably wasted a lot energy in the process;)

The tumbling bullet does not necessarily apply to just FMJ's either. I have killed a groundhog and coyote now with an '06 using Sierra/150/SP's that hit prairie brush in one case and the edge of a terrace in another, producing obvious sideways entrances. Both reacted like they had been swatted hard with a 9 iron, and they were far enough out that the velocity had to be down around 2000 fps.

Globemaster,

Thank you. Good Comm's are hard to come by. Expansion and fragmentation are different mechanisms of injury. If the bullet expands, it increases the permanent channel by maybe 150%. The radial fragmentation of a bullet also lacerates the tissue being displaced- destroying tissue that would otherwise close up, after the bullet passes.

An awfully good reference of what various bullets do in gelatin appears below and you can find examples that fit the general categories were discussing here.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm
 
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