200 vs. 230gr .45 ACP's

OK so the bottom line is shell out $70 bucks for some 230 grainers to shoot out of my fixed sight commander, get a different front sight or live with it and compensate. Guess I'll compensate for the time being. :(
Thanks for all the feedback it is very interesting if not somewhat brain numbing.
 
Brutus said:
OK so the bottom line is shell out $70 bucks for some 230 grainers to shoot out of my fixed sight commander, get a different front sight or live with it and compensate. Guess I'll compensate for the time being. :(
Thanks for all the feedback it is very interesting if not somewhat brain numbing.
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A 2" difference in POI is not much, but you now know that the POI is different, so compensating, or just adding a 2" measurement to your final POI is not difficult.
 
If you are gonna stick to the 200 gr bullets, replace or file down the front sight. I shoot 200s in my .45s. I have had to file the front sights on some of them, they'd have been low with 230s also. In fact I don't notice much difference in impact between 200 and 230 in my 1911 guns, whether 5" or Commander. Recoil seems to have more effect in revolvers in my experience. The longer the bullet stays in the bbl the higher the impact on the target. I once shot some 110 gr .357s in a gun sighted for 170 gr bullets, the 110s shot about 6" low at 25 yards.
In the .45 sighted dead on with 200s will only be a couple inches high with the 230s. For me 2" high is great, preferred in fact. Except for Bullseye competition, 2" high is better. I want to see the target, not hide it under the front sight.
 
No, they don't delay recoil.
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From the words of the Creator:
and as on
firing a shot the inertia of the heavy breechslide
and of the barrel delays the rearward
movement of these parts until after the bullet
has passed from the muzzle of the barrel,
But of course you know better than Browning,right?
 
I would try slowing the 200 gr load down to make the bullet spend more time in the barrel as it's rising.
OR
Try a different powder in hopes of changing the POI.

I would try reducing the powder charge first to see how much difference it makes in your POI.
 
Thanks for all the feedback it is very interesting if not somewhat brain numbing.
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Don't say that man,just tweak your loads untill you get it right,you will eventually and all this controversy will have meant zip.
 
polyphemus said:
From the words of the Creator:
and as on
firing a shot the inertia of the heavy breechslide
and of the barrel delays the rearward
movement of these parts until after the bullet
has passed from the muzzle of the barrel,
But of course you know better than Browning,right?
Click to expand...

Let's hope Browning didn't mean that there is no movement of the slide until after the bullet has left the barrel, because we know that isn't true, and it would defy physics, which it doesn't.

The video link I posted earlier is visual evidence that the slide does indeed move before the bullet exits. If Browning really thought that it didn't, he was clearly wrong, proven by his own gun.
 
Browning might also have been using the term 'delay' to mean something different. Delay, might mean slowing down. But this different than using the term delay to mean preventing, as might be the definition used by some folks here.
 
From the words of the Creator:
and as on
firing a shot the inertia of the heavy breechslide
and of the barrel delays the rearward
movement of these parts until after the bullet
has passed from the muzzle of the barrel,
Click to expand...

note the bolded text. It doesn't say the parts don't move only that their inertia delays movement until the bullet is out of the barrel.

However, this is beside the point. The force of recoil lift the muzzle of the pistol beginning as soon as the bullet begins moving and continues to lift the muzzle after the bullet has cleared the barrel. A lighter bullet, moving faster, spends less time in the barrel as it raises in recoil than a heavier one. The heavier, slower bullet takes longer to exit the rising barrel, and therefore strikes higher on the target than the lighter bullet.

This same principle is at work in revolvers and single shots, it has nothing to do with slide movement or timing. Now the mass of the moving slide. and its sudden stop, and its movement forward again, and that sudden stop does affect what you feel in your hand when firing. This is "felt recoil" and is subjective. All the energy of all the moving parts comes from the powder gas, the moving parts of a semi auto don't change that, they just alter the way we feel it.

As I and others have suggested, if you reduce the velocity of the 200gr so it spends the same amount of time in the barrel as the 230gr, it should strike the same point of impact as the 230. These will feel like very light loads, but shout hit the same point of aim, at regular pistol distances. Longer range has additional factors which can change things.
 
Again,slide and barrel travel rearward together as soon as the bullet starts moving for about 1/8"and then disengage.Not enough to cause any rise.
And Browning did mean that the slide is delayed during that time in the same sense that delayed blowback is understood,it is moving and gaining momentum but this motion is somewhat curtailed by counter forces. After that the slide continues on but momentum decreases since force is no longer present.Short recoil operated arms do not function like revolvers or rifles.
 
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Easiest thing to do is aim higher. Like ms6852 says, it may be a dead on hold or it may not be.
"...Does not make sense that..." Does. It's a different load with a different bullet. It'll have a different POI.
 
Of course I think otherwise neither a revolver nor a rifle is a semi auto pistoand I don't shoot either,so please tell us, what force exactly makes a muzzle rise
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We did. Repeatedly.

Again,slide and barrel travel rearward together as soon as the bullet starts moving for about 1/8"and then disengage.
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This is a fact.

Not enough to cause any rise.
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This is your opinion, not a fact.

If you are going to hold to your belief that it is slide movement that causes muzzle rise, then please explain why firearms that do not have a slide have muzzle rise, the same as those with a slide do.
 
If you are going to hold to your belief that it is slide movement that causes muzzle rise, then please explain why firearms that do not have a slide have muzzle rise, the same as those with a slide do.
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Seems like a reasonable question and one I'd like to know the answer to . However maybe we need to go back farther into the thought process to understand where he is coming from .

Poly

Do you believe the mechanical workings of the firearm is the only factor causing recoil ?

I feel we are talking past each other and you are thinking we don't believe the slide causes recoil , IMO it does and quite a bit . We believe there is some movement of the firearm upon ignition , IMO there is but not much in comparison to the over all recoil of the firearm .

Lets try this as a way of thinking about it . Newtons law and the equal and opposite reaction aspects . If it takes 1lb of force to move something forward there is 1lb of force being applied to the rear as well ??? OK lets "assume" this is true for a second . If a bullet has a muzzle energy of 400 foot lbs at the muzzle surely when it starts moving at ignition of the powder is has at least some energy in foot lbs being applied . Even if it's only 1 foot lb pushing the bullet forward It's still a force pushing the bullet in one direction . For this to happen there must be an "equal" and "opposite" reaction in the opposite direction which means there "must" be a force of the same amount pushing rearward on the firearm . That force will move the firearm when held in anyone's hand . Do you think you could hold the firearm perfectly still if someone tapped the muzzle rearward with a force of 1 foot pound ? No you could not because just the sponginess of the skin and muscles in your palm will allow anything to move a little regardless of how hard the force is applied or how hard/tight you hold the grip . Just clinch your fist real tight and push on the skin around your palm with the other hand to see how soft your grip really is .
 
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If you are going to hold to your belief that it is slide movement that causes muzzle rise, then please explain why firearms that do not have a slide have muzzle rise, the same as those with a slide do.
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ok, at the risk of being called a troll...

A revolver would do then,now your pivot point diagram applies this is because most of the the recoil force is transferred directly to the shooter.A slide's mass and other relevant factors like friction and springs contribute to dissipate the energy generated at ignition,the remaining slide momentum causes the muzzle flip at the end of the rearward travel.
 
Do you believe the mechanical workings of the firearm is the only factor causing recoil ?
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I am convinced that an equal force as that which sends the bullet flying out sends the slide back in recoil.
I think that the length of time a bullet spends in the barrel can only be relevant for trajectory purposes if the comparison is made between two or more bullets of different weight at the same velocity.
We're not talking past each other I'm simply being asked to prove something that seems logical to me but I lack the instruments to measure.If .120" of slide
travel at the beginning of recoil causes the muzzle to rise then so be it.
 
Ok, lots of confusion here.

I did some experiments awhile back comparing sightline and bore line for revolvers vs. Browning type semi-auto pistols and found that they are quite different.

Revolvers are set up to compensate for significant muzzle rise between the time that the trigger is pulled and the bullet exits the bore. The same would be true of any fully locked breech action like a gas operated action (such as the Desert Eagle) or any manual repeater as long as the boreline is above the point of resistance caused by the shooter's grip.

But linkless Browning type semi-auto pistols are set up differently. The borelines and the sightlines are almost perfectly aligned. In other words, they are not set up to compensate for any significant muzzle rise between the time that the trigger is pulled and the bullet exits the bore.

Recoil DEFINITELY begins when the bullet starts moving. There is no room for debate on that point.

It's important to understand that muzzle rise and recoil are two different things.

Recoil is an unavoidable consequence of bullet movement.

Muzzle rise sometimes results from recoil depending on the circumstances. And it may not happen immediately.

Recoil does not always cause muzzle rise. If the recoil vector is straight back into the point of resistance, the recoil motion will be straight back. If the recoil vector is above the point of the resistance, the recoil will cause muzzle rise. That's the first complication.

In addition, even when recoil does cause muzzle rise, it does not always have to cause significant muzzle rise immediately. In the case of the linkless Browning type semi-auto pistols, the recoil initially causes the slide and barrel to move backwards, resisted only by the force of the recoil spring. That remains true, by design, until the bullet exits the bore and the barrel and slide unlock. Because the recoil spring presents a relatively small resisting force, the muzzle rise during this phase of recoil is minimal--the slide and barrel move pretty much straight back with no significant force being transferred to the frame of the gun. We can see that this is true by looking at the sightline vs. boreline for this type of pistol and noting that there is no attempt to compensate for muzzle rise.

The muzzle does rise a very little bit due to the loose coupling of the slide/barrel to the frame via the recoil spring, but not very much at all--certainly not nearly as much as would be seen in a revolver, or in a gas operated pistol like the DE. This post contains a very thorough analysis of just how much the muzzle of a Browning type action might rise while the bullet is in the bore.

Once the slide and barrel travel backwards far enough to reach the unlocking point, the barrel stops against the frame (or against something that bears against the frame) and that provides the first direct coupling of the recoil energy to the frame of the gun. At that point muzzle rise begins to really show up. However, it's important to remember, that, by design, the linkless Browning type semi-autos do not unlock until the bullet has left the bore. So the really significant part of muzzle rise happens after the bullet is gone.

Browning type pistols with links that begin tilting the barrel immediately when recoil starts are sort of a different category and I haven't done measurements on them.
 
.If .120" of slide
travel at the beginning of recoil causes the muzzle to rise then so be it.
Click to expand...

See we are talking past each other because my belief is that no parts of the gun are moving the first maybe 1/2" of bullet travel . Nothing , not the slide nor the barrel have moved when the bullet first starts moving . You need to remember there needs to be enough pressure built up to force the slide back or to unlock/disengage the barrel from the slide . While those pressures are building the bullet has already stated to move . If the bullet is moving forward there must be a force pushing rearward equal to the force pushing the bullet forward that first 1/8 , 1/4 , 1/2" . What ever that movement may be there is a force being applied in both directions before the pressure builds enough to start operating the external workings of the firearm .

hmm as I wrote that a question accrued to me . If the pressures of the gas expanding are equal in all directions . Do they all cancel each other out as a force in any one direction ? If the gases are pushing equally rearward as they are forward on the bullet , does that make a neutral force being applied ?
 
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