2 to the Body, 1 to the Head OR 3 shots to Center Mass?

I would humbly suggest that any definitive plan like 2com/1h is the wrong way to train.

I am more a proponent of the NSR...or shooting them till they are no longer a threat, while aiming at the COM of whatever is showing...even if it is only their Butt (can I say butt? :o )

I worry that building the 2+1 muscle memory may leave you floundering where;

The BG does not present his whole body, let alone his head

The 3 shots are not enough (only a good centered hit to the head is anywhere near a sure thing)

Just like people that always train to double tap, I have a picture of them standing there thinking...."he should be dead...what now" as the BG empties his pistol into them.

The head shot, when available, is always a good idea when COM is not working...for whatever reason....

I just don't approve of having a "standard" response
 
Every situation is unique, and for a civilian, tactics in movement and not getting killed play a more important role than getting hits on the BG. The standard for me is 2 COM and assess. This is because I am moving towards cover. A head shot decreases your effective target area by at least 75%. Whether your accuracy likewise decreases will depend on how you train. One thing is almost certain, neither you nor your BG will be standing still. If you do not train with this in mind, a head shot is risky indeed. My range for a fairly certain moving head shot is 10 feet. If 2 COM hits gets me home safe, then it's all I need. If I must try a head shot, it will be because the threat is still there, and closing quickly.
 
You have to be alive to worry about the court case later.

Do whatever has the best odds of keeping you alive in the situation you are in. If you've got a good headshot in a situation where somebody is trying to kill or maim you, take it; don't choose a course of action less likely to keep you alive because of amateur-hour legalistic jerking off you did in your head on a gun forum.
 
2 com, as many to the head as it takes to stop. If he's still coming after two to the chest, he's already got issues.
 
OBIWAN
I am more a proponent of the NSR...or shooting them till they are no longer a threat, while aiming at the COM of whatever is showing
Click to expand...
The opposing theory holds that after the first strike or two the reaction of the nervous system dulls the sensitivity to the rest, and failing a CNS strike the antagonist might be a threat longer than if a deliberate attempt is made for a CNS hit in the head.

And this does make sense. Anyone - or most people - that have ever suffered a serious traumatic injury will often note the lack of excruciating pain during the actual event that caused the injury due to shock.

I worry that building the 2+1 muscle memory may leave you floundering where ..... etc ... I just don't approve of having a "standard" response
Click to expand...
I agree, and I think that people like Clint Smith would as well. But for the single attacker at close quarters one must at least have a starting point.

If we look at averages, we can say something like (for the sake of arguement) 3 shots, 3 seconds, at 3 yards. We can say that a certain number of antagonists are going to give up at various stages, but lets begin with the ones that give up after receiving one solid hit in the upper torso.

What about the ones that take a whole magazine or cylinder full (or more) and are still on their feet? In these encounters, if the engagement begins at "X-yards and closing fast", something much more decisive is called for.

I think the Mozambique drill has perhaps been viewed as a sort of programmed response but I do not think that is how it is professionally taught by those who advocate it. Clint Smith for example notes that one difficulty in learning and effectively employing this is that a conscious transition is called for between the second and third shot in order to make a more carefully placed shot on a smaller target. This transition involves (I believe as he describes it) slowing down about a tenth of a second and taking just that fraction more care in placing the shot. And so far we have only described the mechanics of the shooting.

This ties in with the complete process; in which the first two COM are the "programmed response" part one, a fractional momentary evaluation part two, and the first attempt at the head shot part three. And so on; it does not stop there by any means either.
 
Head or body

In the debate about head or body, I see Law Enforcement brought in. I also saw a person talking about worrying about liability "way too much".

#1: Law Enforcement officers are held to a much higher standard than any civilian. The "rigorous" training they are put throught places them in a position to better decide what to do in cituations. In order to minimize liability, officers are taught center mass, not to kill, but to stop the threat. Also, center mass is a much easier mass concept to teach. NOW, if you get into SWAT tactics, they are a much elevated and specialized training. There is where you can effectively teach and pull off a 2 to 1 shot.

#2: Even as a civilian, you still need to worry about law suits...unless you are like me and can't afford to pay attention. Besides, there are anti-gun DA's out there that have no problems trying to after a percieved gun fanatic taking matters into his own hands by blowing away some poor soul who can be rehabilitated.

#3: DAMNED what you are taught. My understanding from an officer....accomplished armorer....and competition shooter is.....shoot him in the hips. NO ONE can get to you if he mechanically cannot walk...on PCP or not. Stand up in court with that one.

"Yes, sir, I felt as if he was going to kill me...he had a knife. I didn't want to kill him, so I shot him in the hip so he wouldn't die. I just couldn't live with killing him. He is just a poor misunderstood guy. Can I give him a hug?"
:D
 
Obviously this depends on the scenario. If I'm accosted at close range by 3 armed men, then I'm looking at 3 quick headshots. If it's 2 men at a more medium range, one headshot for BG #1 and a two to the chest of BG #2.
 
brain stem

from what I have heared and read the only reliable way to stop an attacker (especially drugged ones) is to shoot the brain stem.

I have read reports from soldiers who hit Iraqis three times with rifle rounds and the Iraqis kept shooting back.

So I assume that with any gun, a sure stop can only be achieved by a hit in the brain stem...
 
2 Chest, 1 Head

It really depends on the situation. In the SEAL Teams a lot of our standard work-up protocals are with Mogadishu drills (2 to the chest 1 to the head) but it would be dependant upon the situation. I would not worry about court legalities. If it is the way you shoot to defend your life then it is what you do.

I mentioned above it depends on the situation...over in Iraq and Afghanistan (Ive been both) - neither one ever puts you in a scenario that follows exactly how you planned it. To sum it up - if you have to drop someone...put as many shots as you need to into any area of the body that you need to. Ive seen shoulder shots take a guy down and Ive seen COM shots do nothing more than stun a guy. Head is uaully a good fail safe though (the purpose of the drills) ;)
 
i have to say that all i know on this is what i have learned in college concerning the anatomy of humans. analyze the situation a.s.a.p. and make the best shot(s) you can possibly make cause that is probably going to be your only chance.

to answer the question though, i would have to assume from purely a anatomical standpoint that the 2CM and 1H would have a much higher probability of disturbing the cns(central nervous system) and subsequently downing the assailant. obvious reasons being how much difference could an extra shot make to an already damaged cns that is already reacting from the first two shots. if he/she is still charging/standing/shooting etc. after the first two, put that front sight up just a tad and take the head shot.
 
I like something I read by Pat Rogers recently

Don't wanna paraphrase...this stuff is golden!

One of the problems with training is how we define things.
For example, the Mozambique as Cooper taught it was a Hammer to the chest (the term "double tap" not being sufficintly definied), than pause to steady and take the head shot.
Having personally experienced this, my advice is that there isn't a whole lot of time to pause (unless you want to spend the rest of your life waiting for the perfect shot...). The Failure Drill is 3 rapid shots. We defined it that way at Gunsite as soon as Cooper sold the place.
Head shots are difficult and the brain is protected from kinetic energy, but let's face it. A shot to the jaw may not kill your opponent but it will probably end the fight.
Don't think so? Remember the last time someone laid one on your snotlocker? Remember all those little spermy things swimming before your eyes? What kind of immediate response could you have provided?
Even without it being a kill shot, it can keep him from killing you while you follow through, ease to reset, and acquire another flash sight picture- and start looking for someone else to fight.....
There are times that head shots are indicated, as well as elbows, feet and hands.
Pelvic shots are not normally viable, but if that is all you have available, it ain't gonna' make him feel any better either. Be prepared to follow up.

I teach it this way.
Standard response: Two rounds, center mass. (Don't get locked into this one)
Failure Drill: Hammer body, single brain. I don't use the term "head". I want it more defined.
Non Standard Response (NSR): Shoot center mass of what you have until the threat is eliminated.

The problem with an NSR is that a pistol may not be viable if your bad guy de jour is wearing a hard shirt, or leather jacket etc. All your in gun ammo will be expended for naught.
The NSR is excellent with an M4 of course, but we also teach Hammer Chest/ Hammer Head for specific reasons.
 
Although we train troops (Marine Corps type) to do the standard failure drill while doing their predeployment shooting package, EMP Course. One thing I observed and has been repeated in several AARs is that despite allot of training hitting a head in the real world is very hard to do. Even while conducting clearing of structures, beyond muzzle to the face range allot of aimed shots to the head end up hitting the wall and not the head. One of the solutions that has been emphasized is first to fire COM until target goes down and second has been training on firing burst fire, aimed COM, with the same emphasis to shoot until the target goes down.
 
Interesting. One reason for the failure to stop drill is that body armor resists most handgun rounds. The military rifle will penetrate the common body armor so continued COM shots would be effective eventually. But with plates, etc. then there still is a problem.

Of course, everyone on this list can make head shots under stress. :)
 
Head shots are the only shots that put them down for the count.

The body may have a ballistic vest.


Better to be judged by 12 then carried by 6
 
response - question by question

RESPONSE IN BOLD
2 to the Body, 1 to the Head OR 3 shots to Center Mass?

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But if the intention is to stop the threat, do you think a jury would view the use of a head shot in a defensive shoot as "excessive force?" It seems to me that the intention of a head shot is to inflict a fatal injury (not that COM doesn't have that potential as well).

SUBSCRIBE TO A LEGAL NEWSPAPER; PRACTICED LAW 31 YEARS. NEVER, I REPEAT NEVER READ SUCH A CASE. SHORT RESPONSE - NO.

I'm just curious if most people would view it as "malicious." And of course, I realize I'm asking the wrong crowd too...

RIGHT. ASKING THE WRONG CROWD. IF I WANT MY CAR FIXED (THIS LAST WEEK), I GO TO THE AUTOMOBILE MECHANIC. PAY YOUR DOLLARS AND ASK THE QUALIFIED PERSON.

I realize that the adrenaline of an actual shoot makes the largest target the best target but I'm wondering how most people train for the day they hope never comes to pass.

BASE OF NECK. THINK ABOUT WHERE THE ROUND HITS IF TOO HIGH, TOO LOW, TO ONE SIDE OR THE OTHER. THINK ABOUT WHAT AREAS OF THE BODY ARE EXPOSED IF THE SUBJECT IS WEARING BODY ARMOR.

A REAL LIVE TARGET IS NOT STATIONARY, IS IT? IT FLOPS. A REAL LIVE TARGET IS NOT A CENTER MASS TARGET. IT IS AN ELBOW, AN ARM, A PROTRUDING LEG.

IF YOU ARE SHOOTING IN LOW LIGHT AND THE FIRST ROUND IS TO THE TORSO, DO YOU REALLY THINK YOU ARE GOING TO SEE A HEAD?

WHY COUNT ROUNDS, ANYWAY?

I HAVE SEEN ALL KINDS OF PEOPLE - SEALS, FORCE RECON, SWAT INSTRUCTORS, SF RIGIDLY TRAINED IN UNTHINKING TWO THE CM, ONE TO THE HEAD, DOUBLE TAPS, HAMMERED PAIRS, 5 COUNT DRAW ROUTINES.

YOUR GOAL HAS TO BE MASTERING THE FUNDAMENTALS OF SHOOTING, SHOOTING ACCURATELY, SHOOTING WITH A FRAME, MOVEMENT. SHOOTING IS A MARTIAL ART, IF DONE CORRECTLY. EXAMPLES. GO SHOOT A DCM MATCH. DO THE STANDING LEG. DO YOU WANT TO BE STATIONARY IN THE REAL WORLD OR DO YOU WANT TO BE ABLE TO SHOOT WALKING AT 100 YARDS?

IF YOU WANT TO DO PACMAN SHOOTING, YOU WILL SHOOT LIKE PACMAN GAME WHEN SHTF.

TOO MUCH TIME IS SPENT ON 9MM VS. .45 AUTO; GLOCK VS. BROWNING DESIGNED .45ACP, WEAVER VS. ISOCELES (SP), WHEN CAN YOU SHOOT A PERSON LEGALLY.

GET OFF THE COMPUTER, FIND A GOOD INSTRUCTOR, AND ENGAGE IN PERFECT PRACTICE IS THE BEST ADVICE ON THIS SATURDAY MORNING. THIS WILL BE THE 4TH TIME I AM SHOOTING THIS WEEK.
 
body armor drills

the 2 to the body and 1 to the head is for those bad guys wearing body armor. If you have been trained to shoot that way, I would stick with it. if two to the chest isn't putting the threat down, it must be wearing body armor, wouldn't that sound reasonable?
 
"GET OFF THE COMPUTER, FIND A GOOD INSTRUCTOR, AND ENGAGE IN PERFECT PRACTICE IS THE BEST ADVICE ON THIS SATURDAY MORNING. THIS WILL BE THE 4TH TIME I AM SHOOTING THIS WEEK."

The best advice I have seen. I practice several times a week...all stances, moving, one and two handed...head shots. If I practice on the head, I know I can hit COM. Consider that, after the first hit, the perp's nervous system commences to shut down in 1 second. It is completely shut down within 3 seconds. That means he does not feel the rest of the hits! He may die soon, but not before he does his damage. A headshot turns the switch off. I practice with both a handgun and a 12 ga. at 30, 20, 15 and 10 feet.
Just my .02 worth. :)
 
Head shots are the only shots that put them down for the count.

The body may have a ballistic vest.
Click to expand...

The problem is, at least in the circumstances I am referring, that is not our concern. Most of the time we are shooting rifles or in limited cases carbines, the targets aren't wearing armor, but quite a few have been on drugs.

The few cases that one round or a CP/HP COM didn't work, than you had to pump round into them or get really close and shoot them in the face.
 
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