2:1 kill ratio! Who was this guy??

[applesanity]

So you're telling us that 1) you're a recluse (possibly), 2) you're a gunowner, 3) you've had military training (correct?), and 4) you have the necessary equipment to make a manifesto.

Okay it's too soon to make attempts to de-sensitize this tragedy. But the title of this thread did set the tone.

I own a pricey tripod. But I do photography as a hobby. Which is why the shadows in the manifesto picture bother me so much. Normally, you'd only see shadows like that, (as well as Cho's eye contact and angle of gun aim) if someone else was holding at camera at you.

However, most amatuers have a habit of centering their pictures. That's a point for the one-man-operation argument.

At least, are we in agreement that this person had no training yet? (crossed thumbs, etc)

 

[Double Naught Spy]

It's a lot harder than you think to rest a camera on anything besides a tripod. You have to have the right height and the right angle, consistently. Also, a lot of digicams don't have tripod mounts.

No, it really isn't too hard at all, such as a dorm room where you have many objects at different levels (dresser, shelving, etc). We have 4 digital cameras at home and 2 at work. All have flat bottoms and can be shot off the shelf as in the image. All have timers. All have quality settings. All have a flash.

I have used a similar setup with a video camera to work on draw strokes, no tripod.

I dearly hope nobody else was in on this tragedy, and this person was alone, all alone. It's just that there enough evidence for reasonable doubt. Webcams, cellphones, and camcorders don't come with flashes.

Not quite right again. I know that JVC makes camcorders with flashes. http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/JVC-Introduces-Four-Hard-Drive-Based-Everio-Camcorders.htm

Cell phones with flash...
Sprint Motorola Moto Q PDA Camera & MP3 Cell Phone
Samsung SCH-a990
The Helio Hero has video and flash

Cell phone flash accessories are made by companies like Luxeon http://www.lumileds.com/solutions/solution.cfm?id=9

However, most amatuers have a habit of centering their pictures. That's a point for the one-man-operation argument.

Right, that is an easy image to make. Just put a camera with a flash and timer on a shelf at about eye level and point gun directly at the camera. Presto.

Of course, centering can be done easily in the edit process and with digital images, there are no film and processing fees and so you can take as many images as necessary until you get the right picture.

 

[FirstFreedom]

I really fear that a lot of his targets simply watched him and offered no resistance. It seems he shot quite a few several times

Yes, that is a bit perplexing to me...that NO ONE (or small team of someones) attacked him with a simple wrestling takedown / hand-to-hand subduing, or even attacked him with a pocket knife in conjunction with wrestling. I find this very odd, and it makes me think someone probably DID try this, but ol' boy nutcase was evidently very quick on the draw, very alert, and very quick on his reloads. Methinks he'd been training some.

 

[applesanity]

I'm more inclined to think that as soon as Cho killed one or two victims, the rest went into "flight mode," out of fear. It's really hard to say what one may do in such situations, only until one is in that position. BANG! FLASH! BLOOD! If the person just went in and started making demands, people would have time to react. He probably just went into classrooms, shooting without hesitating.

I really don't think he had any training, judging by his pistol gripping. As for reloading, thumb catches the magazine release, insert another one, pull the action, and continue.

Maybe (I hope not) manufacturers might start making magazine disconnect safeties, like on the Ruger MKIII, so you'll have to pull the magazine out manually instead of letting them drop. Then again, McCarthy, Boxer, and co. can't think that far ahead, so they'll just go for small mag legislation.

The reason why i'm putting forth so much speculation on how the pictures were taken is that I just want to put to rest the thought that someone else was helping him. Usually when people take self-photographs, and you can see a million of them on myspace.com or facebook.com, people are targeting their eyes about stomach or chest level, and rarely eye level.

 

[jstep]

He was just a novice shooter...

 

[jstep]

By the way, its pretty pathetic that only a small percentage of the students faught back. Looks like students are trained to be wimpy, submissive and do whatever the attacker says and just lay down.

I wouldn't go down without a fight. I have base instrincts to not only protect myself but to stand up for the weak. In a public building, people have access to alot of means of defensive.

Using the firefighting equipment against the attacker is one option. With a dry chemical fire extinguisher or others, its impossible to see anything with all the chemical clouds and even the inhalation. You can use the fire hoses to knock him down on his feet and make the ground wet so he can't run anywhere without slipping and falling.

Even pulling the fire alarm is EXTREMELY LOUD. With flashing strobe lights and ear piercing sirens, you are taking away his ability of hearing and possibly impeding him with strobes.

When you take an attacker's control away from them, then either breakdown and cry and roll up in a ball, or kill themselves.

Not even anyone on the football team or atheltics charged this guy or tackeled him.

He encountered NO resistance.

What have we become when we lay down and beg to be executed?

This massacre is suspicious as heck. Flashbacks from the Manchurian Candidate come to mind.

 

[cje1980]

I also think that its because of how little people know about guns. I think the media portraying handguns as being evil and death-rays also prevents people from defending themselves and reacting properly. Most who are familiar with handguns and self-defense training know what to do when somebody is shooting at them. The worst thing you can do is just stand there motionless. With a handgun shot-placement is extremely critical in order to be fatal.

With knowledge of the fact that you are likely to survive a handgun wound, the students might have reacted differently. Seriously 80% of people shot with handguns survive. If you just stand there motionless, you are increasing the chances of not surviving as the shooter is likely going to get a clear shot at vital areas. Anybody who has ever fired a pistol before knows that it is really hard to hit a moving target even at ranges of 10ft. This obviously isn't the students fault but there needs to be some sort of education on what to do in these situations and how to react. This is happening way too often and something needs to be done about it.

I really fear that a lot of his targets simply watched him and offered no resistance. It seems he shot quite a few several times.

This is a symptom of our times. Children are taught NOT to defend themselves do not attempt to resist a BG. The police will come a save you.

 

[jstep]

Also why isn't anyone crying to ban antidepressants? All these school shooters are hopped up on serotonin re-intake inhibitors and psychotropic drugs.

We need more perscription control! Not gun control. Zoloft/prozac increase suicidal tendancies and thoughts.

 

[FAL-schutter]

cje1980 said:

I also think that its because of how little people know about guns. I think the media portraying handguns as being evil and death-rays also prevents people from defending themselves and reacting properly.

Except in the hands of women, who can be easily disarmed by an assailant and have their guns turned against them. Or so the Brady Campaign would have you believe...

 

[applesanity]

We need more perscription control! Not gun control. Zoloft/prozac increase suicidal tendancies and thoughts.

And now you've proclaimed dominion over the majority of licensed psychiatrists. Or you're being sarcastic.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Usually when people take self-photographs, and you can see a million of them on myspace.com or facebook.com, people are targeting their eyes about stomach or chest level, and rarely eye level.

I don't know about this "usually" business. Not everyone posts pics on the web. Cho didn't seem to do it at all, or does not appear to have. He actually mailed his manifesto data instead of uploading it somewhere.

Your generalizations about gear and behavior don't seem to fit the absolutes and norms claimed.

 

[OBIWAN]

Oh for cryin out loud Columbo................


I have taken tons of outdoor photos with my camera in all sorts of precarious positions and I somehow managed to git-r-done

And yes they were all (reasonably) well framed

This guy could have been both reasonably clever and nutz

 

[Big Don]

I suspect he used hollow points, based on the "artistic" photo (according to the jerk at NBC) of the ammo arranged for the picture he sent to them.

Has anyone heard anything from the survivors as to any of the students taking some type of offensive action against the bad guy? I weep for our country if these poor children were slaughtered without someone putting up some type of a fight.

 

[jimpeel]

crossed thumbs = no training?

That is my preferred two-hand grip. The crossed thumbs are for the purpose of reducing shaking of the hand.

One should grip a handgun tightly but not so tightly as to make the hand shake. The crossed thumb technique reduces shaking while increasing the tightness of the grip. Here is how.

Refer HERE for pictures of this particular grip.

Take the firearm in the strong hand holding it comfortably but not tightly. Using the weak hand, place the fingers around the fingers of the strong hand and the thumb over the thumb of the strong hand. DO NOT increase the grip of the strong hand.

Grip the strong hand with the weak hand pulling the thumb of the strong hand down which uses the leverage of the weak thumb to bring the strong thumb down tightly on the grip of the firearm. There is a multiplying effect on the strong hand which causes the strong hand to grip the firearm tightly without shaking. This hold also reduces rise and increases target reattainment.

This hold also tends to pull the web of the strong hand down out of the way of the slide for those who have problems with the slide catching the web of the hand. This can be a major distraction in a gunfight.

Try it. You'll like it.

 

[OBIWAN]

I cross my thumbs with my glocks...and that is the result of training/advice from an instructor

For everything else I use thumbs up

 

[JohnKSa]

The Paducah school shooting is worth looking into as an example of what can be accomplished by someone with little to no firearms experience. A 14 year old (Michael Carneal) achieved a 100% hit rate--about half of the hits were head shots. His only experience with a handgun is reported to be firing a several shots through the gun a few nights before the shooting.

 

[junkpile]

Indeed, I think that much of it can be explained through enclosed, small spaces.

UpD: It seems according to current news reports that around 225 bullets were used to kill 32, wound 29.

 

[jimpeel]

It is said that Michael Carneal spent many hours at the arcade playing the shooting games where head shots bring extra points.

http://www.aim.org/media_monitor/A3327_0_2_0_C/

In the Kentucky case, the young killer, 14-year-old Michael Carneal, had never undergone any firearms training. He learned how to shoot and kill from the video game. When he walked into the Bible study meeting at his high school with a gun, he proceeded to shoot his victims with deadly accuracy. Carneal later admitted that he was also influenced by the 1995 movie, The Basketball Diaries, which has a scene in which a young man enters his school and opens fire on his classmates and teacher. The character in the film is wearing a long black trench coat, just like the student killers in Colorado.

 

[JohnKSa]

It is said that Michael Carneal spent many hours at the arcade playing the shooting games where head shots bring extra points.

Yup, it may come out that the ? killer at VA Tech "trained" himself in some similar way.

I don't believe video games are a substitute for firearms training, but there's no denying that a lot of the hand-eye coordination issues required for good accuracy can be learned to one extent or another without ever touching a firearm or receiving any training.

 

[jimpeel]

From the same article cited above:

On both shows, a former Army Colonel described the game as a "mass murder simulator" that provides military-type training. He said it is like the flight simulators that teach military personnel how to fly aircraft. In fact, 60 Minutes showed how the video game "Doom" is used in the military itself to teach soldiers how to kill. In the game, the gunman moves slowly through a building, in the same way that a Special Forces soldier might enter hostile territory. Enemies are shot and killed, as simulated blood spatters out of their wounds and they fall to the ground in pools of blood.