Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
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Boomer ---- OUCH! -- Guess I'd want to see them shot before I'd concede. --- CDOC
1st Larger Bore Suggestions
- Thread starter DealHunter
- Start date
Boomer ---- OUCH! -- Guess I'd want to see them shot before I'd concede. --- CDOCBoomer58cal
New member
I was mostly responding to this comment.
In fact it's just the opposite. You can't safely stuff enough powder in a 45-70 case to match a muzzle stuffer.
None taken, but that's what the double rifles for.
There's obviously nothing wrong with the 45-70, but it compromises maximum performances in lieu of a higher rate of fire. For the military this was a huge advantage but for a hunter it's not that much. I've never needed a second shot, ever.
A 120g charge has shot clean through everything I've pointed my. 62 at.
Boomer
In fact it's just the opposite. You can't safely stuff enough powder in a 45-70 case to match a muzzle stuffer.
None taken, but that's what the double rifles for.
There's obviously nothing wrong with the 45-70, but it compromises maximum performances in lieu of a higher rate of fire. For the military this was a huge advantage but for a hunter it's not that much. I've never needed a second shot, ever.
To be totally honest with you I've fired exactly 1 250 grain charge and it will probably be my last.
A 120g charge has shot clean through everything I've pointed my. 62 at.Boomer
Basically the 30.06 is supposed to be capable of taking everything on the NA continent and you can get ammo at most Walmarts if no where else and you can load 125 gr - 220 grain bullets for it.
I knew the 30.06 was THE round when I had the opportunity to shoot a dead horse that had died the day before. I shot him in the front chest area with a round fo 30.06 AP, it exited his back side, went 75 yards and kicked dirt five feet in the air behind him. That is about six feet of meat it went through and kept on trucking.
After studying the work of the International Wound Ballistic Assn it became clear that if the bullet has enough power to exit the back of your target it can't really do much more damage to the target. Col Fackle MD had a interesting point, big bullets make big holes, big holes leak faster than small holes and two big holes leak twice as fast as one and two holes is all you need any round to do.
I have a deputy buddy who shot a big guy with a 357 Mag 125 grain. They found the bullet fifteen feet behind him on the ground and even though the bad guy survived, he lost about six feet of intestine for his efforts and it was a one round stop.
I have another good friend who got all shot up during WW2 but before the 88s got him he had dispatched a number of guys (sniper) and saw lots of action. He has had 47 surgeries since the war to remove shrapnel since and I asked him a couple years ago about all his experience in VA hosptials, combat etc how many guys he had seen take a solid thoracic cavity hit from a 06 or 8MM and was able to go home and tell others about it. He thought a moment and said he never saw anyone survive such a hit.
With the ammo situation now buying a rifle you can't readily get ammo for would be a turn off for me.
I now have one larger bore rifle and it was set up as a low noise signature heavy thumper. 35 Whelen and I have a 220 gr bullet mold for it. I first used this bullet in 357 mag as a personal defense round and got 1100 fps (chronographed) from a 6" GP100. Fackler ran the numbers and said this bullet at 800 fps would exit the back of the biggest guy that ever needed shooting.
With that in mind I checked my Sierra 5 program and a 220 gr bullet loaded to 1100 fps still has 826 fps velocity at 500 YARDS.
That round loaded in a 35 Whelen or 358 Winchester rifle to same velocity is only slightly louder than a 22LR round thus if you were in a situation that you did not want to let folks know your business for miles around then that would be the ideal combo. Two big holes, fast bleed outs etc.
The is a forum called gunwriters on the web, check out "cat sneeze loads".
I knew the 30.06 was THE round when I had the opportunity to shoot a dead horse that had died the day before. I shot him in the front chest area with a round fo 30.06 AP, it exited his back side, went 75 yards and kicked dirt five feet in the air behind him. That is about six feet of meat it went through and kept on trucking.
After studying the work of the International Wound Ballistic Assn it became clear that if the bullet has enough power to exit the back of your target it can't really do much more damage to the target. Col Fackle MD had a interesting point, big bullets make big holes, big holes leak faster than small holes and two big holes leak twice as fast as one and two holes is all you need any round to do.
I have a deputy buddy who shot a big guy with a 357 Mag 125 grain. They found the bullet fifteen feet behind him on the ground and even though the bad guy survived, he lost about six feet of intestine for his efforts and it was a one round stop.
I have another good friend who got all shot up during WW2 but before the 88s got him he had dispatched a number of guys (sniper) and saw lots of action. He has had 47 surgeries since the war to remove shrapnel since and I asked him a couple years ago about all his experience in VA hosptials, combat etc how many guys he had seen take a solid thoracic cavity hit from a 06 or 8MM and was able to go home and tell others about it. He thought a moment and said he never saw anyone survive such a hit.
With the ammo situation now buying a rifle you can't readily get ammo for would be a turn off for me.
I now have one larger bore rifle and it was set up as a low noise signature heavy thumper. 35 Whelen and I have a 220 gr bullet mold for it. I first used this bullet in 357 mag as a personal defense round and got 1100 fps (chronographed) from a 6" GP100. Fackler ran the numbers and said this bullet at 800 fps would exit the back of the biggest guy that ever needed shooting.
With that in mind I checked my Sierra 5 program and a 220 gr bullet loaded to 1100 fps still has 826 fps velocity at 500 YARDS.
That round loaded in a 35 Whelen or 358 Winchester rifle to same velocity is only slightly louder than a 22LR round thus if you were in a situation that you did not want to let folks know your business for miles around then that would be the ideal combo. Two big holes, fast bleed outs etc.
The is a forum called gunwriters on the web, check out "cat sneeze loads".
Some good comments here, diamonds in the rough as there is lots of BS too, some of it in the "deranged" category.
One of big bore rounds that I found to be surprisingly enjoyable to shoot was .375 H&H in a Ruger #1. I also enjoyed shooting .338 Winchester mag from a Winchester model 70 Sporter Magnum.
I have to admit though that I also enjoyed shooting a .58 caliber H&R Topper black powder gun, even though that was really too heavy a bullet for too light a gun, especially with the heavy loads of black powder we were using. What kept us at was that the topper was surprisingly accurate, and it was fun to watch the reaction when we let somebody who was curious about it take a turn. One time a combination of flinch and recoil actually unseated a shooter, he fell backward off of the bench but to his credit, he hung onto the gun.
One cartridge that interests me is the .450 Marlin, which should be useful here in the US, I'd like to try it out in a good bolt action rifle but to do that, I'd have to roll my own as nobody makes anything like that.
The .458 Winchester mag has about the same capacity as a 45-90, but the combination of smokeless powder in a modern firearm makes it much more powerful than the old black powder round. The factory loads are not optimal for hunting in the US, but by handloading this round, it can serve well for anything from white-tail deer to moose and grizzlies.
In general, the experience of owning and shooting any big-bore cartridge is greatly enhanced by handloading. It gives un-matched versatility and by keeping the costs down allows you to shoot more often.
I have owned several Marlin 1895's, in fact my first rifle, bought when I turned 18 was an 1895g with the straight grip, squared finger lever and plastic butt-plate. That 45-70 carbine taught me how to shoot without flinching. The best 1895 I owned, by far was the 1895CB - the 'cowboy' model with the 26" tapered octagon barrel. It has a great trigger and is remarkably accurate. The balance and general shooting qualities of the 1895CB is as close to perfect as I have ever encountered.
I have to say though, that MOST fun I have ever had with a big-bore rifle was the Ruger #1 in .375 H&H.
- But that's just me.
One of big bore rounds that I found to be surprisingly enjoyable to shoot was .375 H&H in a Ruger #1. I also enjoyed shooting .338 Winchester mag from a Winchester model 70 Sporter Magnum.
I have to admit though that I also enjoyed shooting a .58 caliber H&R Topper black powder gun, even though that was really too heavy a bullet for too light a gun, especially with the heavy loads of black powder we were using. What kept us at was that the topper was surprisingly accurate, and it was fun to watch the reaction when we let somebody who was curious about it take a turn. One time a combination of flinch and recoil actually unseated a shooter, he fell backward off of the bench but to his credit, he hung onto the gun.
One cartridge that interests me is the .450 Marlin, which should be useful here in the US, I'd like to try it out in a good bolt action rifle but to do that, I'd have to roll my own as nobody makes anything like that.
The .458 Winchester mag has about the same capacity as a 45-90, but the combination of smokeless powder in a modern firearm makes it much more powerful than the old black powder round. The factory loads are not optimal for hunting in the US, but by handloading this round, it can serve well for anything from white-tail deer to moose and grizzlies.
In general, the experience of owning and shooting any big-bore cartridge is greatly enhanced by handloading. It gives un-matched versatility and by keeping the costs down allows you to shoot more often.
I have owned several Marlin 1895's, in fact my first rifle, bought when I turned 18 was an 1895g with the straight grip, squared finger lever and plastic butt-plate. That 45-70 carbine taught me how to shoot without flinching. The best 1895 I owned, by far was the 1895CB - the 'cowboy' model with the 26" tapered octagon barrel. It has a great trigger and is remarkably accurate. The balance and general shooting qualities of the 1895CB is as close to perfect as I have ever encountered.
I have to say though, that MOST fun I have ever had with a big-bore rifle was the Ruger #1 in .375 H&H.
- But that's just me.
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DealHunter
New member
Just curious, how was the recoil of the .375 in the N.1 which is a 9.25lb gun (compared to say a .300WM in a much lighter gun)? The .375s (H&H or Ruger) and now 9.3x62 that I've looked at weigh in at between 8.00 and 10.0lbs. The .45-70s tend to be lighter just because they are smaller of course.
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
New member
Well, considering the O.P. twice stated this larger bore firearm was for "FUN" I still come down on the 45/70 because of its huge range of possibilities. Bigger and broader even then the great Ol' "06".
My RUGER #1S is, as number ones go, a very light rifle with it's 22" barrel and is not only a beauty to behold, but just sooooo great to carry!
It is also able to be loaded solidly and safely on the "wild" side of the mild to wild range of loads for the 45/70, and as such can be more then most sane people will choose to shoot with any regularity.
So, considering the O.P. did not list a specific need or goal other then fun, it is hard to come up with a, "more fun" rifle/cartridge then this 140 year old round.
Shoot it black, shoot it smokeless, shoot "collar buttons", shoot bullets of well over 500gr, Yep my vote is solidly on the 45/70!
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
My RUGER #1S is, as number ones go, a very light rifle with it's 22" barrel and is not only a beauty to behold, but just sooooo great to carry!
It is also able to be loaded solidly and safely on the "wild" side of the mild to wild range of loads for the 45/70, and as such can be more then most sane people will choose to shoot with any regularity.
So, considering the O.P. did not list a specific need or goal other then fun, it is hard to come up with a, "more fun" rifle/cartridge then this 140 year old round.
Shoot it black, shoot it smokeless, shoot "collar buttons", shoot bullets of well over 500gr, Yep my vote is solidly on the 45/70!
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
The Ruger #1 Tropical in .375 H&H wasn't as bad as I expected. I had been shooting a .338 mag and noted that the .375 H&H had more recoil - but it wasn't as sharp a jolt as the .338 provided, so overall it wasn't nearly as annoying.
We plinked with the .375 until the ammo was gone, and I had no bruising on my shoulder. I shot ten rounds from it at floating debris in a creek.
My Dad had a 20 gauge bolt-action shotgun that used to kick me terribly... Something about the stock, I guess... I inherited that shotgun when he passed away - but I just keep it in good condition, I never shoot it.
The worst thing I ever had about bruising me was a pre-BOSS Browning A-Bolt in .300 Win mag... The kick-pad on that thing was like tire rubber and always left marks on my shoulder. On the other hand, it shot 1/2" groups at 100 yards.
They put a good pad on the Brownings now, mine was bought back in 1990.
We plinked with the .375 until the ammo was gone, and I had no bruising on my shoulder. I shot ten rounds from it at floating debris in a creek.
My Dad had a 20 gauge bolt-action shotgun that used to kick me terribly... Something about the stock, I guess... I inherited that shotgun when he passed away - but I just keep it in good condition, I never shoot it.
The worst thing I ever had about bruising me was a pre-BOSS Browning A-Bolt in .300 Win mag... The kick-pad on that thing was like tire rubber and always left marks on my shoulder. On the other hand, it shot 1/2" groups at 100 yards.
They put a good pad on the Brownings now, mine was bought back in 1990.
BusGunner007
New member
.45-70 Government.
Ancient, yet still effective cartridge.
Loaded in NEW forms that will flatten trajectory.
Black Powder - HURT ME...you make the choice!!!
Buy a Lever Gun and 'own' a fun gun...it's what you said...and I concur!~
Check this out:
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/
Now, you're gonna want a .44 Remington Magnum, too.
GUAR-ON-TEED!
Ancient, yet still effective cartridge.
Loaded in NEW forms that will flatten trajectory.
Black Powder - HURT ME...you make the choice!!!
Buy a Lever Gun and 'own' a fun gun...it's what you said...and I concur!~
Check this out:
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/
Now, you're gonna want a .44 Remington Magnum, too.
GUAR-ON-TEED!
DealHunter
New member
Already have a 16 inch 1894s and a few Rugers in .44 Mag and .45 Colt (only ones I'd trust using those rounds in...)
Yes I've heard others say the .300WM and .338WM have a sharper jab than the .375s or 45-70s which are more of a big push (sort of like .40S&W vs .45ACP).
DealHunter
New member
Well I wound up finding a deal too good to pass up at the local show this weekend (cost was bellow value and far less than the cost of anything else I was looking at since they were trying to move it) on a LNIB Ruger N.1 H tropical in .375 H&H. Since it's a "fun toy" I don't mind the single shot aspect.
Still might like a .45-70 guide gun in a little while of course (they had a JM 1895 in 450 Marlin but I can't seem to find ammo for that) but thanks all for the input. Fun times at the next range trip I think
Still might like a .45-70 guide gun in a little while of course (they had a JM 1895 in 450 Marlin but I can't seem to find ammo for that) but thanks all for the input. Fun times at the next range trip I think
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
New member
"fun toy" ??? Not really. Fun yes, but a fun and very adequate hunting tool.
With a good butt cuff or as I have done, an "off side" wrist cuff, being a single shot is not the big disadvantage that some think.
Besides, the point is, make the first shot count!
What you really have is potentially a great cast bullet hunting rifle!
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
With a good butt cuff or as I have done, an "off side" wrist cuff, being a single shot is not the big disadvantage that some think.
Besides, the point is, make the first shot count!
What you really have is potentially a great cast bullet hunting rifle!
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
DealHunter
New member
Yes, with the price of factory .375 H&H ammo, cast will be the name of the game shortly I think (to be fair I knew that with any rifle caliber these days...)
@dealhunter: I've been following this but didn't post because I had nothing new to add (my suggestions would have been either a 9.3x62mm or a .35 whelen). However, what you got is even better. You will have a lot of fun with your new ruger #1. Plus it is an elegant , classic rifle.
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
New member
YEP!!!
CDOC
CDOC
tahunua001
New member
no experience with the others but the 1895 in 45/70 is a great gun. if you reload the 45/70 can be a very versatile load ranging from bird shot loads for grouse, very light quiet loads comparable to 45 colt for random plinking to up to 600 grain shoulder crushing loads that could drop a buffalo if you hit it in the rump(please do not attempt). it is probably the most versatile of all of the rounds you've listed.
edward hogan
New member
Want a new larger caliber rifle?
Why?
Do you handload? Own any loading manuals? The real ticket to longterm satisfaction with a rifle over .30cal is bullet selection and performance. No caliber has a wider bullet selection than .30cal, but IF YOU HANDLOAD, the world is your oyster (as they used to say)...
If you own a .357mag handgun, I would look at the .35 cal rifle cartridges. Can use pistol bullets in your rifle, if you have this dynamic duo. Joe over at realguns.com has a few articles about his .358/375 weatherby. That is a bit of overkill in my book, but there's the .35 Remington in a number of fine carbines, the .358win, The .350 Rem mag, and the .358 Norma, not to mention the .35 Whelen which is legendary... There is also a .356 winchester in the Big Bore model 94 rifle.
Lots of wildcatting possibilities as well, and decent bullet selection. No other large caliber rifle offers the pistol bullet variety options of the .35... Were there a 10mm/.40cal rifle, or a .452 pistol & rifle duo; I would be very into them. There is the .44mag and .444 Marlin but not looking for flatnose or roundnose heavies of 300gr or more, and not a lever-action.
Get into bullet casting for your .35 and everything opens up...
If you aren't into handloading, you're missing All The Fun!
Why?
Do you handload? Own any loading manuals? The real ticket to longterm satisfaction with a rifle over .30cal is bullet selection and performance. No caliber has a wider bullet selection than .30cal, but IF YOU HANDLOAD, the world is your oyster (as they used to say)...
If you own a .357mag handgun, I would look at the .35 cal rifle cartridges. Can use pistol bullets in your rifle, if you have this dynamic duo. Joe over at realguns.com has a few articles about his .358/375 weatherby. That is a bit of overkill in my book, but there's the .35 Remington in a number of fine carbines, the .358win, The .350 Rem mag, and the .358 Norma, not to mention the .35 Whelen which is legendary... There is also a .356 winchester in the Big Bore model 94 rifle.
Lots of wildcatting possibilities as well, and decent bullet selection. No other large caliber rifle offers the pistol bullet variety options of the .35... Were there a 10mm/.40cal rifle, or a .452 pistol & rifle duo; I would be very into them. There is the .44mag and .444 Marlin but not looking for flatnose or roundnose heavies of 300gr or more, and not a lever-action.
Get into bullet casting for your .35 and everything opens up...
If you aren't into handloading, you're missing All The Fun!
Classics
Two classic cartridges are mentioned again and again in this thread....the venerable .45-70 and the almost as venerable .375 H&H.
I own both. If I wanted to buy a "big bore" ala a big powerful rifle, and I had to choose between the two..I would buy the Holland cartridge for sure. There is something about that long shallow shouldered case and the power that it generates that no other cartridge possesses.
That being said....when I wanted a big bore for which I had no use other than to have it go bang and push me around a bit, I bought a Ruger #1 Tropical in .416 Rigby - a cartridge that is a handloader's dream.
Pete
Two classic cartridges are mentioned again and again in this thread....the venerable .45-70 and the almost as venerable .375 H&H.
I own both. If I wanted to buy a "big bore" ala a big powerful rifle, and I had to choose between the two..I would buy the Holland cartridge for sure. There is something about that long shallow shouldered case and the power that it generates that no other cartridge possesses.
That being said....when I wanted a big bore for which I had no use other than to have it go bang and push me around a bit, I bought a Ruger #1 Tropical in .416 Rigby - a cartridge that is a handloader's dream.
Pete