1913 German Luger ID help.

S

SD_Chop

New member
I have just inherited a 1913 Luger pistol I am trying to narrow down all the details. Was wondering if anyone here could help me out?? Pics to come of course but my main hang up seems to be the identification marking on the top of the toggle seems to be worn and can tell if its an Erfurt or DMW. Has matching numbers throughout the gun 9454 and date of 1913 on the top of the barrel. No shoulder stock lug. proof marks through out, just worn on the top of the toggle. Again I will get some pics up just looking to see if anyone can help me ID the manufacturer and possible value. Has 2 mags, 1 wood base 1 tin base not matching numbers and a holster that has a 1936 date on it. Any other proof marks i should look at or other obvious marks? Any historical forums that could help also?

Thanks!
 
Based on the Standard Catalog of Luger (Davis 2007) what you have is a 1908 Military, Dated. (meaning there is a date on the chamber)

approx. 18,000 were made by DWM, 12,000 by Erfurt in 1913. The toggle marking is the key. DWM (scrolled logo) or a "crown" with Erfurt below it.

Proper mag is tinned body, wood base, ser# and proof marked to match the gun.

Listed value for guns in EXCELLENT condition in 2007 was $1400. Today? I have no idea. Guns in "good condition" were $650.
 
Great thank you. Any other way to tell besides the toggle marking who made it? All the proof marks are gothic letters with crowns, an eagle over a small triangle. Shame the only real wear is on the toggle
 
The serial number (9454 plus a single letter suffix) on the front of the frame above the trigger guard should tell you if it's DWM or Erfurt. The Luger Forums could help you out with that. Also a strong LED light might reveal traces of the toggle logo. Another possible difference, I believe DWMs are finished nicer than Erfurts.

I have a mixed numbers 1913 DWM which does have a shoulder stock lug but I believe early 1913 models didn't have it. Since mine has mixed numbers I've shot thousands of rounds with it since I bought it in 1975. Only one part has broken, which fortunately was an easy fix, only adding another mixed number.

Congratulations on inheriting a fine piece of history!
 
thank you. It does not have a suffix letter in the serial number. it does have the last 2 numbers stamped all through out.

PICS











 
Oh and forgot to mention i have a trophy of war "certificate" to go with dated 1945 giving him permission to retain the pistol and bring it back to the US.



 
Thank you sir. My luger knowledge is minimal and hoping to find out more about this ones history and value. My wifes papa brought it back and has not been shot since the 70's, dry work with inert rounds it seems so far so good. Would love to take my father in law shooting with it after i do my homework
 
Thanks for the nice pictures and what a great P08! The capture papers definitely make it more interesting and valuable but I'd keep it in the family forever. It sure looks like someone intentionally removed the logo on the toggle - why I have no idea.

While it's possible to not have an alpha suffix it's way more likely to find one on the front of the frame - not the barrel which you pictured.

I would post the same questions and photos at the Luger Forums as you'll get way more comments from experts and people who live and breathe Luger! Thanks for posting here though, there are Luger people here, too.

As far as shooting it now, you'd be taking a chance of breaking a numbered part which would be sad. My 1913 DWM was mismatched when I bought it in 1975 so I've shot it a lot over the decades with just one broken part (the big toggle axle pin to the rear). The main reliability problem I've had is weak springs in the original magazines (which you don't want to replace due to historic value) and poor aftermarket mags. With Mec-Gar mags and Federal Champion FMJ my P08 is very reliable and fun to shoot.

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If your father-in-law is healthy enough to go out and shoot it, I'd definitely do it. Just have it checked for safety first. What a great memory, to shoot it with the man who brought it back! Definitely take lots of pictures of that and keep prints with the bring back papers! What an honor to shoot it with him!
 
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Ok I will double check the front for a suffix letter but don't remember one. I thought the same thing curious why the manufacturer mark looks like it was intentionally removed. Most of the tolerances in the springs and gun seem very well (I am only an armorer to modern stuff) but seems good. He is healthy and still working, retired Navy Capt and now a contractor. The family member was a german immigrant who ended up fighting for the US in WW2 so there is history in this for the family and its not going anywhere just more of a want to know basis.
 
It sounds like it's safe to fire and the pictures indicate it's in good shape. Before and after a range session I carefully inspect the barrel while cleaning. The Luger is a very strong design but the steel of 1913 wasn't as good as that of WWII or today. For that reason lot of Luger experts prefer shooting a WWII Mauser instead of an older DWM or Erfurt.

If it has feeding problems it's almost certainly the old magazines. Otherwise all the springs and parts in my 1913 seem fine. A range session usually is 50-100 rounds and since I got the Mec-Gar magazines there's rarely a malfunction. I take it out once or twice a year. Yours probably is too valuable to shoot much but I'd want to shoot it at least once with your father-in-law. I'm sure yours is as strong as mine, which looks like a beater cosmetically but is in great condition functionally. I have a 1941 byf that's near pristine that I'd never shoot - guess which one is more fun!
 
The gun is probably safe to fire, but it has problems as a collectible. The main one being that the toggle and sideplate are not original. Somehow, the gun had a toggle with the wrong number, and someone (in the U.S., not in the German army) decided to remove the non-matching number and put on the matching one (54). Grinding off the number left a dished area, so he ground the rest of the toggle down, thus removing the manufacturer's marking. (With some research, it could probably be determined, but that is not worth the time.)

Note that the "4" is a closed top figure, where the original numbers on the receiver are of the German open top style. The sideplate was also ground down and renumbered. Since there is no photo of the front of the receiver, the "legal" serial number cannot be determined.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but you have a "shooter" Luger, not a collectible pistol with all matching numbers.

Now please, SD_Chop or others, if you disagree, fine, but then explain the problems I mentioned. There is no need to use extreme language or threats, or suggest that I be barred from the site for questioning "experts".

Edited to add: On closer inspection, the toggle "4" does appear to be the open type, and I erred in saying that it is closed; bit the toggle number still appears to be the wrong size/font and not original.

Jim
 
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I'll get a pic of the front of the reciever. The gun has not been touched since 75 I do know that. I'm the 3rd owner behind 2 family members father in law had never touched it
 
Numbers look close though. The 4 is not exactly the same in any 2 places and has different proof letters so not the same person stamped all the 4s.
 
James K probably is right that the toggle logo was removed and the two digit serial number restruck. I can't think of any other reason to grind down the top of the toggle.

Here is what a DWM toggle with 54 should look like. No way to know if it's a 1913 but the vintage is close. Ignore that it is in a WWII barreled receiver.

BTW, I'm certainly not an expert, just a guy who has two Lugers and loves them!

luger_barrel_receiver_toggle_top.jpg
 
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there is also a proof mark on the toggle and side plate just letter and crown. No suffix letter on any serial number anywhere. Could it be an Erfurt? I see their toggles have a similar proof mark on the toggle
 
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