1911's for LEO's

[cougar gt-e]

Guys I'm not a LEO but I am military. This is actually a very simple answer if you think about. How many of today's public are actually active in shooting sports? Think about it. The average "shooter" by today's standards can not maintain constant control and accuracy of the .45ACP. Why you think the 9mm is so popular? With proper grip training, just about anyone can shoot a .45ACP. Like most federal and local agencies, most don't want to fork over the extra expense of the larger caliber. How many LEO's of past years would still carry a .357mag (brand of their choosing) over semi-automatic? Times have changed. It's now a common occurrence to run into someone middle-aged and never shot any form of firearm. I came up in the 80's and everyone I every came in contact with has fired a firearm of some sort at least once in their life. I mean do the Boy Scouts even still offer firearm training?

Agree completely. As recoil goes up, accuracy goes down for the vast bulk of casual shooters.

On boy scouts, the still have bow and arrow, pellet rifle, .22 rifle, shotgun and 22 pistol at camp. And those are popular! (Wisconsin).

 

[44 AMP]

Do the guns go bang every time at the range after 6 months of everyday IWB carry? Can they handle the constant exposure to the elements that comes with belt carry?

World War I
World War II
Korea
Viet Nam

And everything in between, and some since. IF there were a problem, or an "issue" with the reliability of the 1911 design, don't you think we would have heard about it by now?

Well, actually we have. and we have since they were first deployed. The 1911's ability to operate flawlessly under all possible conditions is, and always has been a myth. Even in its bone stock GI condition with GI 230grFMJ ammo.

The real truth is never good enough for some people, EVERYTHING gets blown out of proportion (sometimes to the point of not being congruent with reality), and turned into myth and legend.

If you search a bit, you can find combat reports of the 1911 jamming in combat. Everything (even guns designed by JM Browning) does, when conditions are "just right". And, while I haven't seen any combat reports, I believe that it can happen to guns designed by G. Glock, as well. I had a Glock jam on me at a range, so I feel fairly confident it could happen in combat as well, despite their ad slogan of "Perfection" they are not infallible, either.

Consider, over a century of use, by the military AND law enforcement (and law enforcement IN the military) is a tough record to dismiss arbitrarily.

I saw an incident recently, where 3 officers arrested a guy, and he had a revolver . They carefully put it on the hood of their cruiser while they waited for the shift Sgt to arrive, because NONE OF THEM knew how to UNLOAD IT!! (pardon my old fashioned ideas, but I consider any police officer who does not know the basics of how to unload and make safe the weapons he is likely to encounter of the street (which still includes revolvers) is, in my opinion, grossly undertrained.)

It is NOT the gun, it is the level of training and expertise of the user that matters. I rather sneer at the people who claim the 1911A1 is too "complicated" to learn to use correctly. I mean, gee, lets see, there is an ignition switch, gearshift, gas pedal, brake pedal, and..oh, wait, sorry, that's something "simple" a car....

The LEO (or anyone else) who only shoots at yearly qualification is like the student driver who has just passed their road test. They have been taught, and they can operate, but they don't KNOW their gun.

And to try and dispel another widely held myth, the military does not train its pistol users to any high level, either. I think it likely the general pistol carrier in the military gets even LESS training than the general LEO.

And, as far as I can tell, they never have trained GIs to even a fraction of that, unless their job description calls for it (MPs, etc.)

One of the better discussions of the 1911A1 for LEO use I ever read was ages ago, by Mas Ayoob. The main point that has stuck with me is how he felt that the DA auto was better suited for police work. Not that the 1911 was unsuited, but that the DA auto was better. And the main point was because of HOW police officers use their weapons.

The police officer often holds suspects at gunpoint, ready to shoot, if needed.
The soldier seldom does. In general, if they aim at the enemy, they shoot.

The DA auto reduces the chances of accidental discharge in that situation. Not in the hands of a competent individual, but the overall risk to the department.

I'm fine with the 1911 as a police arm, provided the police are competently trained. That, however seems to be the exception, rather than the general rule.

 

[45Gunner]

I carried a 1911 in Vietnam. It, and the M-16 I carried got cleaned every day without fail. On those days that my squad were involved in a firefight, the weapons were cleaned after we were certain we were secure which usually meant an extraction back to the base camp.

Immediately after being discharged from the Army, I purchased my first Colt 1911. Over the years I purchased many 1911's but settled on the Kimber Stainless Steel Pro Carry which has been my EDC gun for years and years. It gets fired several times a month, gets cleaned immediately after returning home from the range. If a goes a week without getting fired, it gets cleaned.

About 20 years ago I worked for a Government Agency and the duty weapon issued was a H&K .40 LEM. Magazines were high capacity. I enjoyed shooting that gun but soon found that off duty I went back to carrying my Kimber 1911.

A friend of mine is still working as a detective for a local Law Enforcement Agency. He carries a 1911 for his primary and a Colt .357 revolver as a backup.

My son is a deputy sheriff. When he graduated from the Police Academy, I gave him a highly customized 1911. He loves that gun but uses it only when he shoots recreationally. His duty weapon is a Glock .40 and uses a smaller Glock .40 as a backup (interchangeable magazines - the smaller gun will accept magazines from the larger gun.)

In summary, the 1911 is a reliable weapon and can be used successfully for those that understand how the gun functions. Then there are those that prefer the higher capacity guns. It boils down to a matter of personal choice for some and what the department dictates for others.

 

[Tucker 1371]

I don't believe that the 1911 is wholly unacceptable choice for an LEO, however, an agency deciding to issue 1911s MUST enact a strict regular maintenance schedule for all it's officers' weapons. Springs and extractors are the 1911s worst enemies. I would recommend no less than once a year (on a duty weapon mind you) replacing every spring in the gun and all of the magazines, inspecting the extractors for proper tuning and cleaning the extractor channel.

I would also issue officers two sets of magazines, one set for practice and one for duty, and make it policy to only load or unload duty magazines as necessary. When I was a new 1911 owner/carrier I used to load and unload my gun at the end of every day. Then I found that the springs in my Wilson magazines were wearing out much faster than they should have been and causing my Colt to fail to return to battery. Now I leave my 1911 and it's magazines loaded unless I have no other choice.

 

[Polinese]

Sincere question. How are the springs in a 1911 or its magazine more susceptible to wear than any other pistol?

And to 44amp. When I went through my most recent academy and we were practicing taking guns off suspects I made the point to the instructor that they weren't teaching us to clear the weapons at any point. His response... "Well are you gonna know how to clear every weapon you come across?" and he walked away...

When we did an active shooter scenario I was picking up the pistols and simulating clearing them, or in some cases actually clearing them depending on which prop it was. I went back after picking up magazines and such and they were baffled as to where they came from and why I would do that.

 

[Nanuk]

I have carried 1911's on and off for the last 35 years in the military and LE. Aside from a Colt Officers Model I have not had as many malfunctions as I have had with Glocks.

 

[Tucker 1371]

Sincere question. How are the springs in a 1911 or its magazine more susceptible to wear than any other pistol?

Maybe not all of the springs but certainly the magazines. For whatever reason 1911 magazine springs just don't hold up to frequent loading and unloading like other handgun magazines do.

 

[Polinese]

I've heard of that problem with the Wilson magazines but not 1911 magazines in general. I haven't had any problems with my Ruger or Mecgar mags yet and they see a fair bit of use.

 

[tipoc]

Maybe not all of the springs but certainly the magazines. For whatever reason 1911 magazine springs just don't hold up to frequent loading and unloading like other handgun magazines do.

Where did you receive this information?

I don't believe it's correct. Well, let me revise, it's incorrect information.

tipoc

 

[Doc Intrepid]

Ignorance is not bliss

IMHO, after having discussed this at length with a variety of LEOs from New Mexico (Albuquerque PD and NM State Patrol officers) it comes down to a baseline that a majority of LEOs in most agencies are simply not gun guys. They have little interest in guns (say, no more than they have interest in their flashlights), they don't shoot regularly, and they don't give much thought to guns at all. They rarely if ever use them for anything.

I was told stories about senior LLEA management who carried revolvers: in one case a Major talked about "6 is all I need to solve the problem" when he was carrying a S&W J-frame. Apparently he was unaware it only held 5. In another case, the senior officer did not know the caliber of the rounds that fit his revolver. He admitted that he'd never bought rounds for it himself - it still held the original rounds he was issued.

When you have this level of ignorance at senior LLEA mgt levels, it isn't surprising that the rank and file are (generally) equally ignorant. Obviously not the gun guys, but that's the point - the gun guys are a tiny minority.

1911's are awesome weapons, however, they're perceived by the ignorant as less safe when carried cocked and locked, and this includes LEOs. A senior APD cop told of a senior officer from Florida Agency invited to come to NM to perform a 'pre-audit' for safety - it uncovered issues that could be resolved without penalty to APD. This senior FL officer, seeing that the APD cop wore a 1911 asked: "What type of gun is that?" Upon being told it was a 1911 (a term the Florida officer was unfamiliar with,) the FL officer said it looked like the gun was cocked in the holster, and he felt this was a violation of department policy regarding gun safety.

-- This is a senior auditor;
-- From another well known Florida LLEA;
-- Who has never even seen a 1911 carried on duty and did not recognize a 1911, but thought it "looked dangerous carried cocked".

When you are dealing with this level of ignorance at the management levels it's appearing at, it isn't surprising you find it everywhere else as well.

The problem is that the 1911 is perceived as "more dangerous" by cops themselves, nevermind the public. This could be reversed if more cops were "gun guys", however, it appears that a majority of the new breed of cops are not gun guys at all - which contributes to the perception problem.

Just tales from the locker room. YMMV.

 

[tipoc]

What are the honest opinions of 1911 owners when it comes to their suitability as law enforcement duty weapons?

This issue is often discussed. It's partner question is if the 1911 is still suitable for military use.

If we are honest with ourselves and are observant, we see that the issue has already been resolved and the question answered in life.

In the U.S.:

When law enforcement made the transition from revolvers to semis overwhelmingly the choice was to da/sa guns. With a few exceptions the 1911 and the Browning Hi-Power were bypassed.

But why? was it because the 1911 was unreliable? Or prone to accidents? Nope, had nothing to do with that. Law enforcement wanted more rounds in their guns than the 1911 carried. The belief was also that da/sa pistols would be more suited to law enforcement use because of what the mechanism brought to the table. The da/sa guns proved to be so popular in law enforcement that they are still widely in use more than 30 years after they rose to dominance in law enforcement.

Another key factor in the rise of the da/sa guns was that the costs of regular maintenance and upkeep of these guns was less to police depts. than the costs of upkeep on 1911s. Colt could not promise the parts replacement, and support that S&W could and did.

In the 90s the rise of the polymer framed guns closed the door on any hopes the 1911 would experience widespread use among leos. The reliability of the guns, the ease of maintenance, the lower costs of maintenance and the extremely low costs to buy them for police departments made polymer framed guns a winner in law enforcement.

So those issues were settled in life.

But, wherever a department lets folks carry the sidearm of their choice there will be and are 1911s. In SWAT squads and special squads across the country it's there. It's not going to go away. Why? Because they are strong, reliable and accurate guns and easy to shoot well.

tipoc

 

[rock185]

It's certainly true that the vast majority of police officers are not gun guys or girls. I think Doc Intrepid is correct comparing most officers' interest in their firearm to their flashlight. Just a fact of life. Just a comment on on the maintenance apparently required of the 911 type guns, especially the requirement to replace springs,etc. I carried SIGs full time for several years, then the Glocks, and lastly the Colts. I guess I was doing something wrong because the Colts did not require any more effort to maintain that the other pistols. Folks seem to be real proud of not having to do any maintenance on their Glocks. I was one of the armorers at my agency. Once a year all the guns come through the Armory for inspection and PM. I always encouraged the officers to clean and maintain the firearms, mostly Glocks, SIGs, Remington 870s and ARs, in accordance with the factory owners manuals between PMs. The vast majority of firearms came through very powder fouled, dry, some with rust, with no evidence of cleaning or maintenance whatsoever. I'm very glad those Glock, and other forearms mentioned, are so reliable with little to no maintenance.

BTW, in the police academy recruits are given a relatively brief overview of various types of firearms, action types,etc. So yes, most officers know little about, and may not know how to safely clear, firearms other than the type they've been issued, trained with,etc. Another fact of life........