1911's for LEO's

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wmg1299

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Every few years an article will appear on a police website about how the 1911 should be used by more Law Enforcement Agencies, or about how no officer should ever carry a 1911 on duty. My problem with these articles is that they are always written by cops for cops. Many articles mention that the reliability of the 1911 is a problem, but I don’t know if the authors have actually experienced problems, or if they are just repeating what they’ve heard from others.

I wanted some input from users who have actually carried the 1911 for an extended period. Do the guns go bang every time at the range after 6 months of everyday IWB carry? Can they handle the constant exposure to the elements that comes with belt carry?

I am not concerned with other issues like cost, capacity or recoil. While many Glocks have twice the magazine capacity, this may be the reason you see things like NYPD firing 84 rounds in a gunfight with a single suspect or one bad guy being shot 17 times by an officer. Most departments will admit that the cost of losing one excessive force lawsuit for perceived “overkill” would be greater than the cost of issuing a 1911 to each officer. As far as recoil, many companies offer 1911’s in 9mm for shooters who cannot handle a 45.

What are the honest opinions of 1911 owners when it comes to their suitability as law enforcement duty weapons?
 
My brother in law is a police officer and from the early 80's to the mid 90's alternated between a full size Government Model Series 70 Colt 1911 and a S&W Model 19. He or his department had no problem with either gun. He eventually went to the Glock 22 simply because of the weight difference in his case.
 
the 1911 requires more familiarity than the casual range session for qualifications most police officers engage in.

cocked and locked, grip safety, not friendly to poor gripping.... all contribute to the necessity of a true gun enthusiast's attention. this is not a wide spread thing in L.E. today.

of the two agencies I've worked for, I can attest that more than 2/3 of the sworn personnel never fired their gun for any reason than range qualifications.
 
I carried a 1943ish Remington Rand 1911 on duty for awhile. That firearm is currently on another hip, and it has withstood the test of time. In between the two of us, it has been 100%. I shot it quite often, this other officer, just the once a year as required. Zero issues.

This is of course a WWII military spec firearm. And thus it might not reflect on the semi custom, custom jobs folks are sporting today.
 
Hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of America's military members over the last 100+ years can attest to the fact that the 1911 doesn't require anymore training than any other handgun. There is nothing inherently special, evil, or difficult about them. As long as they're kept clean and properly maintained they work.

I carried a 1911 on and off duty for years, I'm recently retired from LE but still carry 1911s. Never had any issues with my guns, I took care of them and they always functioned exactly as they should have.

The average patrolman manages to learn how to drive a cruiser, operate the radio, radar, GPS, computer, lights, siren, etc. all while talking/texting/surfing the web on their phone and drinking a cup of coffee, in the first couple of months out of the academy. The idea that being able to operate the thumb safety on a 1911 is beyond their capabilities is selling them short.
 
It's not so much the pistol that is the issue. It's the .45 calibre. Most of which is the misperceptions about the .45 ACP. Like how one shot anywhere on the body will instantly incapacitate the shootee.
In some cases a 1911 is just too big for small hands. For a lot of jurisdictions, a .45 isn't allowed. However, primarily the whole thing is about money and how good Glock's marketing is.
"...simply because of the weight difference..." Yep. Carried much. Shot little.
"...things like NYPD firing 84 rounds in a gunfight with a single suspect..." That's caused by a lack of training. The lack of training is caused by a lack of money and a certain amount of disinterest on the part of the trainees. Most cops do not shoot recreationally or EVER shoot their service piece except for annual qualifications.
 
The 1911 was designed as a military weapon 110 years ago and was state of the art then. It was never accepted by LE even in it's prime. Even the military wanted to ditch both the 1911 and the 45 ACP after WW-2 in favor of newer more modern designs and after observations and testing at the time showed no real difference between 9mm and 45 ACP. In fact 9mm proved to be much better at barrier penetration.

Both the 1911 and 45 ACP found a niche after the war as top choices in some of the shooting games made popular by Jeff Cooper. The 1911 and 45 dominated primarily because the rules of the game pretty much eliminated any other options. How much, if any of that translated into real world shooting is questionable. But many shooters used 1911's in the games and felt confident in the guns they were shooting in competition. This is where the legend of the 1911 and 45 ACP were born, not on the battlefield where neither were particularly liked during both world wars. By the time Vietnam came around many had bought into the legend. Many never did, that is why both 45 and the 1911 are so controversial.

In my experience a good 1911 is as reliable as anything, and the 45 round works. Just no better than any other common round including 9mm. The problem is that most 1911's are purchased as range toys, not as fighting weapons and manufacturers build them with that in mind. More modern guns are at least as reliable and it is a lot cheaper to build one that works right. If nostalgia and aesthetics are more important then a 1911 can be an effective tool even today. I have 2, and enjoy shooting them, but performance is more important than nostalgia to me.
 
WMG1299 said:
I wanted some input from users who have actually carried the 1911 for an extended period. Do the guns go bang every time at the range after 6 months of everyday IWB carry? Can they handle the constant exposure to the elements that comes with belt carry?
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I have carried 1911s for about 15 years. If I weren't 100 percent certain they would fire when called upon, I wouldn't carry them

Current carry rotation includes a Para Slim Hawg, a Colt M1991A1 Compact, and a Colt 1991 Commander. All three always work, all the time. Once I have a couple of spare mags for it and enough rounds through it to prove reliability, a fourth 1911 will join the rotation: a Para-Ordnance CCO (which was not a Para model, but something I created by mixing and matching Para parts).

I don't carry IWB -- I'm not shaped for it. I carry OWB in a Horseshoe Leather scabbard. I don't what this "exposure to the elements" you're talking about is. The pistol is concealed, meaning it's covered by clothing. It's not exposed to weather.
 
T. O'Heir said:
In some cases a 1911 is just too big for small hands. For a lot of jurisdictions, a .45 isn't allowed.
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Respectfully, that's just nonsense. A 1911 has a very thin grip, and the circumference is smaller than a lot of the current, plastic double stacks. It isn't 1911s that are too big for small hands -- it's the Glock double stack in .45 Auto (sorry, don't have Glock model numbers memorized) that's too big for small hands. That's why Glock developed the .45 GAP cartridge -- so they could offer a .45 caliber pistol with a smaller grip circumference.
 
My experience with 1911 type duty guns pretty much mirrors WC145's. I carried Colt Government,Gold Cup or Commanders off duty years ago. That was back when only revolvers were authorized for on duty carry at the large department where I was employed. Many years later, at a smaller department, Series '80 Colts were authorized. I took advantage of the opportunity to carry a 1911 type pistol on duty for the first time. The Colts were my duty pistols for about my last decade of full time LE work, and now for the last several years as a reserve. I've experienced excellent all around performance from my Series '80 Colts. I attribute a good portion of the reliability to that new "dimple" type barrel throat that Colt began using about 15 years ago. I was initially suspicious of that, but now think it is a very good thing for Colt reliability. By far, the mot reliability issues I've witnessed with 1911 type pistols in general was due to incompetent gunsmithing and tinkering, crap reloads and/or use of the cheapest, of unknown origin, "good deal" gun show magazines. Reliability was much less certain with the quite a few Series '70 Colts I owned back in the day. More often than not, those Series '70 Governments and Gold Cups I had required barrel throating, feed ramp polishing, extractor tunnig, etc. to achieve functional reliability. I'm glad those original Series '70s are so collectible now because, within my humble experience, a lot of them were not really very good guns for actual use at all. For actual use, I trust the new Colts much more than the original '70 Series to actually function reliably.

BTW, I never considered the 1911 types to be complicated or confusing to use. Yes, during qualification and training I am constantly reloading my 7-round magazines while the officers carrying Glocks don't have too. And, I do sometimes look around and see others with their plastic pistols, and a few SIGs, as they address issues with those super reliable non-1911 pistols too;-)
 
I'm not LE, but I can tell you I would never trust my life to a 1911 pistol (although I have carried one). I formerly owned 3 higher end 1911 pistols for many years and found their reliability less than ideal, particularly when I deviated from the standard 230 grain ammunition.

I've been told I'm too picky, but when I take a $1700 pistol to the range and it jams even one time with factory ammo, I consider it unacceptable. Since I switched platforms for the 45 auto I can't recall a single malfunction of any kind, although I still practice malfunction recoveries in my drills.
 
I think the problem with the high dollar ones is they mess with the tolerances too much trying to tighten them up to do whatever... 1911's should rattle. My ruger rattles, never a hiccup. I don't own an RIA 1911 but hear similar things. My sig 1911 on the other hand is extremely tight and has occasional hiccups, quite a few if using any HP ammo.
 
I think the problem with the high dollar ones is they mess with the tolerances too much trying to tighten them up to do whatever... 1911's should rattle. My ruger rattles, never a hiccup. I don't own an RIA 1911 but hear similar things. My sig 1911 on the other hand is extremely tight and has occasional hiccups, quite a few if using any HP ammo.
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I think the argument for "high dollar ones" should refer to mass-production 1911s which are made with close tolerances (Kimber, Sig, etc.). A lot of expensive, hand-fit 1911s will run well if you can make sure you put 500-1000 rounds of JHP ammo through without a hiccup.

If I was in the market for a low-end 1911, I'd choose a Colt or Ruger since the quality is there but the manufactures are not making crazy attempts to tighten the gun.

Top notch "tight" 1911s such as the Springfield Professional are hand-fit to avoid the kind of bad tolerances which will lead to failures. They're still crazy tight new! Most folks can't even rack the slide back without pushing the gun against a table. A lot of folks on the HRT for the FBI use the Professional and I doubt they would use a 1911 that would malfunction.
 
Guys I'm not a LEO but I am military. This is actually a very simple answer if you think about. How many of today's public are actually active in shooting sports? Think about it. The average "shooter" by today's standards can not maintain constant control and accuracy of the .45ACP. Why you think the 9mm is so popular? With proper grip training, just about anyone can shoot a .45ACP. Like most federal and local agencies, most don't want to fork over the extra expense of the larger caliber. How many LEO's of past years would still carry a .357mag (brand of their choosing) over semi-automatic? Times have changed. It's now a common occurrence to run into someone middle-aged and never shot any form of firearm. I came up in the 80's and everyone I every came in contact with has fired a firearm of some sort at least once in their life. I mean do the Boy Scouts even still offer firearm training?
 
The 1911 is fine for LE work, given the right officer/owner/user. For work, I must carry a Glock 17 Gen4. Off-duty, I'm often carrying a 1911.

The 1911 can take more of my time to maintain, especially if it's shot often. Not every LEO shoots a lot, however. In my department, I have little doubt an officer can qualify with the Glock; clean and leave it in the holster; wear it daily; never clean it until after qualifying again 6 months later with no problems.

How reliable will a 1911 be after wearing everyday for 6 months without maintenance depends on the 1911. I'd probably clean the pistol every month or two, but that's just me. I field strip & clean after every range outing. I hear not everybody does this.

In no particular order:

PROs,
-I'm more accurate with the 1911, i.e., it's easier for me to be accurate shooting my 1911 pistols
-relatively easy to field or detail strip
-several sources and brands for various parts

CONs,
-my 1911 pistols are relatively higher cost & maintenance vs. Glock or my other favorite, SIG P-series.
-more maintenance for a given round count
-heavy, although there are lighter weight models available, but my 1911s have the heavier steel frames
-relatively low capacity
 
Fairbairn, writing 75 years ago, addressed just about all of these complaints about the .45 auto, which was still his first choice for policemen and by the standards frequently expressed here, those policemen were barely trained. That of course quickly leads to the belief that a .45 auto is "for experts."

The rest of us amateurs obviously should stick to a 9mm Glock, which requires no training. Everybody knows how to use one of them.
 
My 25 year old LW Commander, as far as I remember, has never jammed. When I bought it, flying ashtrays were popular and the short bullet fed fine. Usually I only clean my shooters when I have to. In the Commander's case when the slide wouldn't close during use it was time to clean. While fishing on the Wild Horse knocked the head off a forest grouse one handed at 20 yds, not to mention the scores of ground squirrels. The 1911 seems to be timeless and given a choice of all auto loaders, I'd pick some sort of 1911.
 
WC145, you mentioned several things that most cops do everyday, except train with their sidearm.
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My obvious point was that if they are capable of learning to do all of those other tasks concurrently they can certainly learn to operate a 1911. It's a gun, shooting it and maintaining it is not rocket science. Like I said, if generations of soldiers, Marines, sailors, and airmen can learn to use it effectively and maintain it with the minimalist training most were given then so can today's police officer. People need to stop putting the 1911 on a pedestal like it's some sort of super gun that only the chosen few can carry and/or operate. It is the original auto for the masses, battle proven in the hands of GI Joe Average.
 
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mxsailor803 said:
Guys I'm not a LEO but I am military. This is actually a very simple answer if you think about. How many of today's public are actually active in shooting sports? Think about it. The average "shooter" by today's standards can not maintain constant control and accuracy of the .45ACP. Why you think the 9mm is so popular? With proper grip training, just about anyone can shoot a .45ACP. Like most federal and local agencies, most don't want to fork over the extra expense of the larger caliber. How many LEO's of past years would still carry a .357mag (brand of their choosing) over semi-automatic? Times have changed. It's now a common occurrence to run into someone middle-aged and never shot any form of firearm. I came up in the 80's and everyone I every came in contact with has fired a firearm of some sort at least once in their life. I mean do the Boy Scouts even still offer firearm training?
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A 45acp is not hard to handle in a 1911 that weighs almost 40oz..A Glock19 is harder to handle in my opinion..
 
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