1911 Methods of Carry

If you want the gun instantly available, then cocked and locked is what you want.

If your uncomfortable with that, then one of the other methods, or maybe even a different gun, would be a better choice.
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If one is uncomfortable with that, yeah, probably what you want is a different gun.

There's no requirement that the CZ75 hammer be lowered, and there's the same possibility for screwing it up if/when you do.
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CZ75 has a firing pin block, right?

Decock the same way you might with a revolver. One thumb goes in front of the hammer. The other holds the hammer. Pull the trigger to release the hammer, then take your finger out of the trigger guard. Lower the hammer, removing the thumb from in front of the hammer when necessary.

Finger is off the trigger, so firing pin block safety is active.

Condition 2= hammer down on a live round. Although historically a popular way to carry, it dosent make any sense to me. You have to hold the hammer as you pull the trigger on a loaded gun and EASE the hammer down over the live round. Sound like a recipe for a ND
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I have read ("on the InterWebz, so you know its true") that that is how the old Detonics compacts were intended to be carried. Cock it when you need it. That big notch was out of the back of the slide to make that easier.
 
lee n. field mentions the CZ 75.
Many of the CZ 75-type models are DA/SA without a hammer decocker and the only way to use the DA is to put the hammer down on a live round.

Add to that the Browning Hi Power. While the manual advises it's best to keep an empty chamber with the hammer down, it also has a 7-point instruction on
just how to lower the hammer on a live round. The current manual is, of course, for the newer models with firing pin blocks.

I think of the Glock striker fired type guns as essentially "single action" with a squishy trigger. And while some of these guns have thumb safeties or the option to have them, most do not.
 
Dropping the hammer on a live round in a 1911 is never recommended, and your Remington manual (you should seriously read those) will tell you "DON'T DO IT". While I hear soldiers in WWII and Vietnam were trained to carry hammer down and empty chamber (Condition Three) this is mostly been eschewed for cocked and locked. Condition One is completely safe and my 1911s are kept this way if loaded. After all, it's not "loaded" if the chamber is empty.
 
While the U.S. Army manual may have prescribed against carrying a 1911 "cocked & locked", the genius gun designer John Moses Browning stated (according to gun historians) that it was the safest way to carry the firearm.

Gun historians also state that Browning did not add the "thumb safety" until the U.S. Army insisted on it. It was Browning's position that the "back strap" safety was sufficient.

To each their own, but my 1911's will always be carried "cocked & locked".
 
While the U.S. Army manual may have prescribed against carrying a 1911 "cocked & locked", the genius gun designer John Moses Browning stated (according to gun historians) that it was the safest way to carry the firearm.

Gun historians also state that Browning did not add the "thumb safety" until the U.S. Army insisted on it. It was Browning's position that the "back strap" safety was sufficient.
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Uh, no. Impossible to carry "cocked and locked without a thumb safety. It was the grip safety Browning added at the insistence of the Army. I would also be interested in who these "gun historians" are who say Browning thought cocked and locked was the safest way to carry. It simply cannot be true. Unloaded is safest, rounds in mag but none in chamber is the next safest way.

Moreover, the direct predecessors of the 1911 did not have a thumb safety at all (so no way to carry cocked and locked). The Model 1900 was a .38 caliber gun and originally had a "sight" safety -- the rear sight folded down and blocked the firing pin. This was later changed and the gun came with no manual safety. The Model 1905 was developed around a new .45 caliber round and also lacked a thumb safety. It only had a half-cock "safety." The 1905 is the direct predecessor of the 1911 adopted by the Army.

http://unblinkingeye.com/Guns/1905ACP/1905acp.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_M1900
 
I'd argue that the Model of 1910 was the direct predecessor of the Model of 1911.
There was not the 1905, then six years later, springing out of Browning's head complete and refined, the 1911. There were many prototypes in between. Some had exposed hammers, some had internal hammers like the pocket "hammerless" models. Some had grips almost perpendicular to the slide while others had angled grips. It was a long process.
The M1911 was essentially a M1910 with a thumb safety added. Some people will say, "The original 1911, or 'the prototype 1911' didn't have a thumb safety", and while some prototypes didn't, every single M1911 made, from serial number 1, have thumb safeties.
It's no surprise that the U.S. military advised against carrying the gun with a loaded chamber, but it's also no surprise that enterprising soldiers figured out, probably some time in 1911, that the gun can be put into action quickly if it's carried loaded rather than unloaded!
 
There's been a heck of a lot of folk that have had there thumb slip when lowering it on a lever action rifle too, especially when hands are cold or slippery. Cocked and locked on the 1911 is pretty much the only way to carry it., practice.
 
OP has a good understanding of the issue with 1911s and poses a good question. M1911s are great pistols. They aren't for everyone and unless you understand the manual of arms and don't practice with it, you are likely to make mistakes under stress or simply handling the pistol.

The 1911 has a manual of arms which allows you to chamber and lower the hammer on a round. My advice is to avoid that. You are making the pistol half ready and to return it to ready requires a step of cocking the hammer that is not necessary or desirable for a defensive pistol, due to initial single action operation. IMO defensive pistols should require no more than a sweep of safety lever and trigger pull or trigger pull only ( given, you may have to disengage grip safeties of both types SA/DA along the way).

If you choose to keep a loaded magazine in the 1911 with an empty chamber that is fine as well. But my advice is that if you aren't in need of the weapon, unload it completely and lock it up.

I have always followed the first rule of gun safely literally. First rule = ALL guns ARE loaded. IME and house, all guns are loaded and ready to fire when the user disengages their applicable safeties as required by specific manual of arms OR they are physically locked in the safe. There are no 'condition 1 or 2' weapons out and about or on my person. They are either ready to engage the BG or locked up. I also avoid press checks, half racks, and other tacticool or ingrained bad habits.
 
Although I don't agree with this way of thinking, there are alot of people that feel the number of steps are the same whether it's thumbing the safety off or cocking the hammer, so what's the difference.
 
Water-man you helped me with the issue and distilling it to two simple issues.

The first problem is dropping the hammer on a round - the OPs original issue.

The second, related to manual of arms, is consistent muscle memory and motions/control of the pistol, depending on the pistol. Under duress, do I want to think about the need to cock the hammer, potentially causing me to change my grip in presentation from the holster, or do I simply want to sweep the safety and squeeze.

I guess it is all in what you are used to. Hell I probably sweep the non existent safety on my Sigs. But I never cock them on the draw. More thoughts for the next day at the range.
 
I wonder when we lost the manual dexterity our forefather had?...

I KNOW why no one will recommend lowering the hammer on a live round, its because too many people today simply won't accept the consequences of their actions. If they screw up doing what you recommend, they will blame YOU, not themselves. Courts are full of that crap.

I've been handling 1911s for over 40 years. I have lowered the hammer tens, if not hundreds of thousands of times, and never had it get away from me.

Still, I don't do it on a live round. Nor will I recommend doing it on a live round. While I am confident of my own ability, YOU, I don't know at all. AND, there is really no point to doing it.

You gain NOTHING in the way of safety in condition two. Cocked and locked (condition 1) requires 3 separate things to happen in order to fire.
1) the gun must be held in a firing grip (grip safety disengaged)
2) the safety lock (thumb safety) must be disengaged
3) the trigger must be pulled

Condition 2 also requires three things to happen in order to fire
1) the gun must be held in a firing grip (grip safety disengaged)
2) the hammer must be cocked
3) the trigger must be pulled

Condition 3 also requires three actions to fire
1) the gun must be held in a firing grip (grip safety disengaged)
2) the slide must be racked, chambering a round
3) the trigger must be pulled

And, please, don't bother pointing out how the military requires condition 3 for "safety". They do, but the safety they are concerned with is the safety of the service, NOT the individual trooper.

Military handgun training is the bare basics so you have at least a chance of hitting an enemy at close range, and if you follow the rule, (hopefully) will not shoot yourself or someone you don't intend to shoot.

But the young men that have been issued 1911s, soldiers, sailors, marines, and even airmen are not noted for always following the rules. Even officers.

And, as to the safety lock (thumb safety), It was added to the prototype at the request of the Army, specifically, the Cavalry. The concern was that a trooper had to reholster the gun with one hand (the other hand held the reins, or possibly a saber), and since the trooper was holding the gun in a shooting grip (other than finger on the trigger) when holstering one handed, the grip safety alone wasn't enough.

While Browning left nothing we know of detailing his personal opinions on the matter, based on his earlier designs, it appears that he felt that as long as the gun had some kind of safety, it was good enough.

JM Browning, was a genius, but he wasn't a cavalryman.
 
If they banned and confiscated pistols with exposed hammers, I wouldn't even care. Too many morons play with them and put a hole in stuff and people.

Take them away Feinstein.........
 
Bad Monkey! (spank! spank! :D)

You might not care, now, but if you don't speak for the trade-unionists, who will speak when they come for you?

Essentially if you give them the authority to ban the thing(s) you don't like, or care about, you are also giving them that power over the things you do like and care about.

I note that
Too many morons play with them and put a hole in stuff and people.
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happens with hammerless pistols too.

The "too many morons play with them" is the reason the military requires empty chambers for on duty carry, and frequently requires guns to be carried completely unloaded (outside of combat zones) and even possession of ammo is generally not allowed, other than for specific duty requirements.
 
You might not care, now, but if you don't speak for the trade-unionists, who will speak when they come for you?
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I know, I know.....

I was just messing around. I don't want Feinstein to come after anybody.

But an exposed hammer will increase ND's. New shooters, old timers, doesn't matter. People gotta play with it for some reason and sooner or later, pop goes the weasel.
 
But an exposed hammer will increase ND's. New shooters, old timers, doesn't matter. People gotta play with it for some reason and sooner or later, pop goes the weasel.
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You're right, it does happen.

Now balance this against the people who have had ND/AD "answering" their GLock in the middle of the night, or some other accident.

NOTHING is fool proof, and if you think it is, you just haven't met the right fool...yet.


You might not have been around to be aware of it, but when the "safe action" trigger was a newish thing, there were a LOT of accidental/unintended discharges, including more than a few involving people who did "know better".

Personally, I WANT a gun with a hammer. To me, its nice to be able to see (or in the dark, feel) if the gun is cocked. A little bitty cocking indicator does do this, but a hammer is much more obvious. I don't want a gun with the safety on the trigger. If you do, get it, and use it safely, and be happy. I'm fine with that, too.
 
An old discussion but...

the 1911 was designed and built with a half cock safety notch to make the lowering of the hammer on a live round safe. Or safer. It was also built with a hammer that made both cocking and decocking easy. Both the 1911 and the BHP have this feature. As do many other single action firearms and da/sa guns. Should the thumb (or thumb and finger) slip the half cock notch prevents the hammer from reaching the firing pin.

You don't "drop the hammer" you lower it.

You don't do it when distracted, flustered, or excited.

The 1911 was even built so that it could be decocked one handed, using only the strong hand. Though two hands is safer by far.

Single action revolvers have the same feature. It's expected that in order to fire them you have to cock and eventually decock a Ruger or Colt.

The same is true of lever action rifles. Though for them a hammer rebound was later added to make the action even safer.

It is also true of shot guns with external hammers.

Also true of double action revolvers.

Holy samoly! The world is full of danger and decocking horror! At every turn we are confronted with routine manual tasks!

With a number of da/sa guns (Walther PPK, Beretta 92, Sigs line, etc.) an external manual decocker is added. This is supposed to make the decocking safer and can be if you trust it. I don't see any reason to do that and have long manually decocked those as well.

I trust my own hands to decock a revolver or semi rather demand that a device be installed at the factory to do it for me.

Folks should at least know how to do this safely. It is safe to do. Follow the 4 rules.

tipoc
 
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