1911 IWB carry "cocked & locked"

S

Shmacky

Inactive
What are the best holsters (names + models) for 1911 IWB carry? I am concerned about the thumb safety moving to the fire position during holstering & unholstering. Some leather holsters have an elongated flap to protect the thumb safety from moving. I think that I would prefer a "kydex" IWB holster because they are THINNER and lighter.

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Anybody else concerned about carrying a 1911 cocked & locked? I would prefer to carry chamber loaded with the hammer in the down position. If I have to draw 1911 I can thumb cock hammer while drawing weapon with same hand.

Is a 1911 safe chamber loaded & hammer down? Is there any chance of firing accidentally in this configuration?
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I feel the Para-Ordnance 1911's are the best 1911's. Anybody else feel that way?
 
Cocked and locked is the only efficient way of carrying a 1911. It is considered safe, as long as you are trained to keep your finger outside the trigger guard until you are ready to fire. Of course, this actually goes for ANY firearm.
I would never attempt to thumb cock a 1911. This would seem to slow and awkward, especially in a stress situation. If for some reason I had to carry with the hammer down, I would rather rack the slide on an empty chamber than to thumb cock it. Also, I don't know how you could lower the hammer on a loaded chamber safely. I would never lower the hammer down while a round is chamber. One slip of the finger, and you will have an negligent discharge.
I strongly advise good training to learn how to handle cocked and locked carry. If you are really worried about this, then a double action pistol may be better for you.


[This message has been edited by shamster (edited March 27, 2000).]
 
Shmacky-If you decide to carry the 1911, I would suggest getting some more training on that particular firearm. Chamber loaded/hammer down is the most dangerous way to carry this piece. I always carry cocked and locked and feel safe in knowing that I am ready to go expediently and have the security that I know how to use my Caspian effectively. I prefer any quality leather IWB holster. I have not tried the Kydex or non-leather IWB's and cannot comment on these.
 
Hola Shmacky,

I use a Kramer #2 IWB for my 1911. It is light, secure, fast and tough. Also, it has a molded in place for the thumb safety so it is impossible for the thumb safety to move to "off". I would also suggest a high quality gunbelt(I use a 1 1/4" Sparks contoured belt).

Dave
 
Cocked and locked is the ONLY way to carry a 1911. If you must carry hammer down, do so on an empty chamber. Now do not take offense, but if you question carrying cocked and locked, you may need to reconsider what you are carrying.

For IWB holsters for a 1911 (or anything else for that matter) here is my short list:

Alessi Holsters
Louis Alessi www.rfholsters.com/rfholsters
Talon Plus and Hard Shell Talon

Milt Sparks Holsters
Tom Kanaley www.miltsparks.com
Summer Special, Heritage, Executive companion. My Kimber Stainless Classic is riding in a Heritage right now.

M/D Enterprises
Mark A. Decoveny www.customholsters.com

Prices are reasonable. They are not cheap, but you most definitly get what you pay for here and then some more.

Johnboy
 
A 1911 should be carried cocked and locked only. Trying to thumb cock the gun under stress quickly is a accident waiting to happen.

As for holsters I would recommend-

Leather-

Lou Alessi-Great guy and great holsters
Matt DelFatti-Seen quite a few and the work was excellent
Andy Arratoonian-His deserves his reputation

Kydex-

David Elderton/Ky-Tac- Probably the best kydex rigs I have seen, and I've seen them all.

Brian
 
I gotta agree with everybody else. Cocked and locked is the only way to carry a 1911.
My IWB holster is a Don Hume that I picked up at a gunshow at a very reasonable price. I usually use Milt Sparks, but at the time they were backed up about 2 1/2 months. So when I came across the Don Hume at about half the price I bought it. No complaints, so far its been an excellent holster.
 
Cocked and locked with the 1911?? Of course, that's the way to carry it?? Holster?? The John Bobbett Special, of course.
 
I have to agree with everyone else-cocked & locked. Condition 3 is the safest way, but painfully slow(maybe fatally slow) and you need two hands to chamber a round.
I carry my Commander in a Galco NSA (IWB) holster. I have an Ed Brown tactical thumb safety installed, and in 4 years of daily carry, have never had my safety accidently move.
I have to agree with johnboy, if you are uncomfortable with the idea of condition 1, maybe you should consider something else. Do not take offense, but some folks just aren't comfortable with the idea. I have a friend who was not comfortable with the cocked & locked method, and insisted on carrying his Officer's Model with the hammer down and a round in the chamber (IWB holster). Upon putting his gun in his holster, he pushed the slide back enough to cock the hammer. Not knowing he did this, later in the day, he took out his cocked & UNlocked gun and put a round through his kitchen floor into the basement, narrowly missing his right leg. I assume he broke the rules and put his finger on the trigger, however, had it been cocked & locked, this never would have happened. Just something to think about.
 
Cocked and locked. Just to prove the point, get a shot timer and try to:

a)present the weapon from the holster, release the safety, and fire a single shot at center mass at 7 yards

b)present from the holster, release safety, rack slide, fire a single shot at center of mass at 7 yards

c) present from the holster, cock the hammer, and fire a single shot at center mass at 7 yards.

I think that "c" is inherently unsafe, and beleive that even with practice the times will be vastly different. If you keep in mind that if you take a hit in a gun fight, you are either, dead, damaged, or dying; I think you'll go with "a." Further, unless you can hit in the neurological zone around the eyes, a hit at center mass only produces a blood pressure loss initially, and the BG has about 15 seconds before the brain is sufficienly deprived of oxygen to stop voluntary movement. Try counting that down on the shot timer...

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It is far better to dare mighty things, though riddled with failure, than to live in the dull grey of mediocrity.
 
I've had similar concerns Schmacky but there are other things to consider.
1) Even if the thumb safety moves, the gripsafety must still be depressed before the gun can fire. As long as you keep your finger off the trigger (and the triggerfuard is covered by the holster), you should be ok.
2) I'm still trying to find one (and maybe someone can help us out here) but it seems to me that an IWB w/ a retention strap could be used with the retention strap between the hammer and the firing pin so that even if the trigger was pulled, the hammer would come down harmlessly onto the strap and not fire.
 
Here is an idea I read of a short time ago. Take your .45 and WITHOUT the mag in the gun, cock and lock the gun. Insert the magazine. Carry the weapon this way until you are comfortable and realize the safety only will come off when you take it. I realize this makes the weapon a bit difficult if the "balloon" goes up but it is intended for short time cumfort training only.
 
Having a holster with a "safety strap" between the hammer & slide is a great idea!

Carrying "cocked & locked" on an empty chamber is also a great idea for training/confidence.

Why is it dangerous to carry hammer down on a live chamber? If a 1911 is dropped the beaver tail "grip safety" should not let the pistol fire , correct?

Why will the 1911 AD with the "hammer in the down position" over a live round?

As a test one could get an empty shell/round with a live primer in it. Hit the back of the hammer in the down position with a mallad just to see how much force it would require to ignite the primer. These would tell the fail-safe factor and degree of safety available in a "hammer down on a live round configuration".

Cocking the hammer with the same hand/thumb which is withdrawing the 1911 from it's holster as you are "raising" the weapon on-line towards the BG would require minimal effort/skill. The only danger factor would be dropping the hammer on a live round after racking the slide initially.
 
Shmacky,

I agree with the others, hammer down is a bad idea unless it's a double action. You said minimal effort/skill, etc. Remember, if you have to use the weapon there are both Somatic and Autonomic nervous system reactions to danger (the fight or flight response). One of the first things to go, is fine motor coordination and the only thing enhanced are gross motor movements. In order to cock the weapon you would need to break the firing grip, which everyone I know teaches, is the first thing (moving concealing clothing, aside) that you acquire when presenting the weapon. This leads to an insecure grip in a stressful situation, and the probability of either dropping the weapon or negligently discharging it. If you cocked the weapon in the holster and then presented it, maybe, but to break the firing grip and attempt it during the draw is dangerous. A little safe dry fire practise should convince you of it. I carried a HK USP 9 for almost two years before I felt comfortable enough to carry it, cocked and locked. If this is you first time carrying, I'd recommend, as others have done,
1. Get good training.
2. Carry a DA/SA for a while.

If you've been carrying a while, and want to carry a 1911, get some more training. The 1911 was only meant to be carried in Condition 1, except for the Israeli's, who think they know everything about gunfighting because they invented the UZI :)

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The reason for the AD possibility with the hammer down, is that the older 1911's and the Kimber's (from what I've read) don't have a firing pin lock or block or something like that. In any case the only thing that keeps the firing pin from moving is the firing pin spring, which is easily overcome by inertia. Thus if you drop the weapon, the impact could overcome the resistance of the spring and fire the weapon. Is that about right, everybody?

Chuck
 
Shmacky, Cocked and Locked is a great way to carry a 1911. You'll find that after you shoot yourself in the leg a few times it doesn't hurt anymore. J/k, cocked and locked is the best way to carry and actuallly it is very safe if you follow basic safety rules.
The beaver tail safety only blocks the trigger from moving rearward, not the hammer from moving forward. However with my tests I have found the following on my Springfield 1911-A1...
With the hammer down resting on the firing pin stop the firing pin does not protrude past the firing pin hole in the breechface and doesn not contact the primer. Beating on the hammer with a mallet and a piece of wood did not push the hammer any further forward than it is at rest nor can push the firing pin past the firing pin stop and therefore did not set off the primer, nor left any marks showing it had even contacted the primer. Therefore it seems to me that hammer down on a live round isn't dangerous in my gun at least. However lowering the hammer on a live round IS dangerous and may discharge the gun and hurt you when the slide comes back and breaks your thumb backwards.
Carrying cocked and locked with an empty chamber will be good for you to get comfortable carrying.
Yep Chuck, that's pretty right. Dropping the gun can cause the inertia of the firing pin to fire the gun or can jostle the sear enough to fire the gun. The firing pin block in the 80's series Colts prevents such accidents. I don't know of any other 1911s using a firing pin vlock safety, there may be some.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>With the hammer down resting on the firing pin stop the firing pin does not protrude past the firing pin hole in
the breechface and doesn not contact the primer. Beating on the hammer with a mallet and a piece of wood
did not push the hammer any further forward than it is at rest nor can push the firing pin past the firing pin
stop and therefore did not set off the primer, nor left any marks showing it had even contacted the primer.
Therefore it seems to me that hammer down on a live round isn't dangerous in my gun at least.[/quote]

10-4 so the hammer does not move forward any more than it's down position will let it and you did not have any primer strikes/ignites? That's great news!

Besides lowering the hammer on a live round the only thing I seem to have to be worried about is dropping the 1911 and having "inertia" overpower the firing pin spring to the point of discharging a round (via inertia)? The Colts 80 series are the only 1911's with a firing pin safety block to prevent inertia from overpowering the firing pin spring? Well , its going to a Colt 1911 for me then.

What the 1911's need is a "decocker". I really wanted a "Para Ordnance" eventually down the road , but it might have to be a safer Colt 80 series?

With an empty round loaded with a live primer you could slam the 1911 muzzle first into a 2x4 just to see if the inertia will overpower the firing pin spring and exactly how much force/inertia it would require to ignite a primer? Then you could slam the 1911 tail/butt first into a 2x4 to see if rearward inertia might ignite just the primer?
 
There have been tests of the 1911 and its inertia firing pin. I believe the Navy conducted a series of tests and found the pistol had to be dropped something like 21 feet and have it land on the muzzle before it would pop a primer from inertia. Conduct a search of TFL, there has been a long discussion of this in the past.

BTW, I have carried a C&L 1911 for over 30 years and to this date I have not had the thumb safety wipe off while the pistol has been carried. Lou Alessi offers several holsters for the 1911 that use a "pull thru" safety strap. The two halves of the strap meet, centered over the rear of the pistol, blocking the firingpin and are secured by a strong snap.

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Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
"If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"
 
The Para Ordnances I've seen have the Colt Series 80-type firing pin safety. It's a good system, IMHO.

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Be mentally deliberate but muscularly fast. Aim for just above the belt buckle Wyatt Earp
45 ACP: Give 'em a new navel! BigG
"It is error alone that needs government support; truth can stand by itself." Tom Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1785
 
Shmacky: Trust me, and everyone else on this, you should be more concerned with an ND while lowering the hammer on a live round than an ND from accidentally wiping off the fafety while carrying cocked and locked. The 1911 is a very safe weapon when carried in that condition. Heck, the 80 series guns have 3 SAFETIES! It seems ludicrus to me, to negate all 3 safeties to lower the hammer on a live round to make it SAFE. I dont have 1/3 the experience some of the guys who have posted when it comes to carrying a 1911, but I have carried a few in my time, and I personally know of no one whose had an ND from carrying a PROPERLY cocked and locked 1911. But I do know a few who've had an ND from trying to lower the hammer on a live round. Having said that, HOLSTERS: I really like the M/D Enterprises Deep South IWB, and Lou Alessi also makes some incredible holsters. Instead of walking around with a chamber empty/cocked and locked 1911 when you go out and might need it, I'd suggest carrying it unloaded/ cocked and locked around the house on your days off until you gain the confidence you need to carry it in condition 1. Also, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!
P.S.- Ive found thumbstraps on IWB's to make the holster more bulky, thus harder to conceal. FWIW

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"To die as a warrior means to have crossed swords and either won or lost without any consideration for winning or loosing. There is just not enough time and generally not enough strength in the resolve of any man to do otherwise"-Miyamoto Musashi
 
C&L for 30 some years, no NDs,and I can't recall ever having the safety click off accidently.Note, I don't use extended safeties.

Current is an out of production Galco, stiff and rigid,works fine for me.
 
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