1911 Hammer drop (with video)
- Thread starter MrMcnasty
- Start date
I agree with 44 AMP. If you are getting hammer drop under some conditions, I wouldn't dream of using the gun for self defense. That's all you need ... for the gun to go full auto in a self defense situation 
. The DA would have a field day with that one.
IMO, a second opinion is in order.
Tuner,
Increasing the sear spring tension might do the trick, but (and I'm no 1911 expert), if the gunsmith in question was nothing more than a hack with a dremel, won't that just be like putting a band aid on a broken leg? If the gunsmith removed too much metal, won't there eventually be a failure as 44 AMP describes?
. The DA would have a field day with that one.IMO, a second opinion is in order.
Tuner,
Increasing the sear spring tension might do the trick, but (and I'm no 1911 expert), if the gunsmith in question was nothing more than a hack with a dremel, won't that just be like putting a band aid on a broken leg? If the gunsmith removed too much metal, won't there eventually be a failure as 44 AMP describes?
Mike_Fontenot
New member
James_K said:
Some of us just LIKE shooting with light triggers, for ALL our shooting (whether at the range OR in an actual self-defense situation).
I had my (full-time-carry) 10mm 1911's trigger set at about 2-1/2lb, and it worked fine, until I increased the recoil spring from the standard 18.5lb to 20lb (to reduce the battering I was seeing from the full-spec 10mm ammo). With the stiffer recoil spring, the slide slams home harder when a first round is chambered, and I got a hammer-follow (down to the half-cock) once during practice. Normally this is prevented by my technique (staying off the grip lever during first-round chambering), but in this one case, I apparently inadvertently compressed the grip lever very slightly (and it doesn't take much to unblock the trigger on my particular gun).
So, to make sure that my gun was safe (especially for other shooters who don't use my handling techniques) I had to increase the trigger to about 3lb. I don't like it nearly as much as the 2-1/2lb that I had previously, but that's just the price I have to pay for the fact that EVERYTHING is inter-related on a 1911. On my S&W69 .44mag revolver, the trigger is at 2-1/2lb (and feels even lighter than the previous 2-1/2lb trigger on my 1911), and that causes no problems at all, because the trigger pull is essentially unrelated to other functioning of the revolver ... nicest trigger of any gun that I have.
I hadn't heard before about the technique of pulling the trigger before releasing the slide on a new mag, to prevent hammer-follow. I can see why that would work, because the trigger/disconnector won't be reset when the slide slams home. (That's also why I never got any doubling when actually firing with my previous 2-1/2lb trigger). But the order IS critical: pull trigger THEN release slide, NOT the other way!
As to the argument that a 7 lb trigger (minimum) is necessary to prevent inadvertent trigger-pulls under stress, it has been shown that in a startle response, the trigger finger can exert MUCH more than 7 lb (perhaps as much as 50 lb or so). So the idea that a 7 lb trigger will protect you against inadvertent discharges is probably false security. I think that if all of your training is always based on "keeping the finger out of the trigger guard until ready to shoot", that a light trigger is perfectly reasonable in a self-defense gun (provided the gun/holster/handling-techique is safe during all non-firing operations).
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marine6680
New member
If the trigger has reached the point that its exhibiting hammer follow...
It is no longer acceptable as a defensive pistol... carry or nightstand.
While opinions are mixed on whether or not hammer follow when dropping the slide on an empty chamber, when the trigger has been lightened for target/competition uses, is acceptable...
Such behavior is not good on a defensive pistol... it means the trigger pull is too light as well. Whether you keep it condition 3 or not when it is sitting on the night stand.
Many say that 5.5lb is a minimum for a 1911 trigger to be used for defense, and that is for well practiced shooters.
Light triggers can be seen as a liability. While pistols with trigger jobs with reasonable weight trigger pulls are not likely to be a problem... A very light target trigger may bring up questions.
It is no longer acceptable as a defensive pistol... carry or nightstand.
While opinions are mixed on whether or not hammer follow when dropping the slide on an empty chamber, when the trigger has been lightened for target/competition uses, is acceptable...
Such behavior is not good on a defensive pistol... it means the trigger pull is too light as well. Whether you keep it condition 3 or not when it is sitting on the night stand.
Many say that 5.5lb is a minimum for a 1911 trigger to be used for defense, and that is for well practiced shooters.
Light triggers can be seen as a liability. While pistols with trigger jobs with reasonable weight trigger pulls are not likely to be a problem... A very light target trigger may bring up questions.
I had a couple of 1911's modified down to 2.5 -3.0 lbs trigger pull. I really liked the light trigger but after several thousand rounds through each of those guns, things started to happen that I didn't like. After having my gunsmith do some further work with me and running a bunch of experiments, I discovered that 3.75 to 4.25 pounds worked great for me and I had all my 1911's retuned that way. I have had no further glitches or strange things happen and I always slingshot the slide...never release it with the slide stop.
In case you're wondering what strange things started to happen, the most common was the grip safety was taken out of the equation and the guns would shoot without gripping the grip safety. Another thing that started to happen is that every once in awhile, the gun would fire off and cycle two or more rounds with a single pull of the trigger. Never want to have that in a gun you are going to use as a carry gun or home defense gun.
In case you're wondering what strange things started to happen, the most common was the grip safety was taken out of the equation and the guns would shoot without gripping the grip safety. Another thing that started to happen is that every once in awhile, the gun would fire off and cycle two or more rounds with a single pull of the trigger. Never want to have that in a gun you are going to use as a carry gun or home defense gun.
Sounds like you got a target trigger job, normal was to hold the trigger back so the hammer won't follow, holding the trigger back also protects the sear edge to prevent damage. A very light pull has no business on a carry or defense gun.
A negligent discharge is a lot more likely with a 2 Lb trigger than a 5 lb trigger. I don't lighten a trigger on a carry gun for this reason. 4 to 4-1/2 lb is plenty light and a lot safer.
My 2 cents.
A negligent discharge is a lot more likely with a 2 Lb trigger than a 5 lb trigger. I don't lighten a trigger on a carry gun for this reason. 4 to 4-1/2 lb is plenty light and a lot safer.
My 2 cents.
Mike_Fontenot
New member
45Gunner said:
So either the grip-lever was no longer blocking the trigger (maybe due to wear of the grip-lever, or perhaps the grip-lever leg of the sear spring had gotten so weak that nothing was holding the grip lever in its aft position), or else the hammer was being released even though the trigger wasn't pressing on the sear ... if so, perhaps the sear-leg of the sear spring had gotten so light that a jar to the gun could rotate the sear off the hammer.
When I got that hammer-follow while chambering a first round at the range (which was not prevented, as it usually would have been, by my normal procedure of staying off the grip lever during first-round chambering ... I must have inadvertently compressed the lever a bit), I checked my trigger pull when I got home, and found that it had decreased 1/4lb, down to about 2-1/4lb ... apparently the disconnector/trigger leg of the sear spring had weakened over time. But even with this 2-1/4lb trigger, I NEVER had any doubling when I was actually firing ... I think that's because I never "slap" the trigger like some shooters do (presumably in order to get a quicker reset and faster follow-up shots) ... I always fully pull the trigger to the rear stop, and hold it there until after the slide slams home ... that keeps the trigger from resetting, and it isn't connected to the sear. (That's also why some of the bulls-eye shooters hold the trigger back while releasing the slide ... same effect).45Gunner said:
I doubt that I'll adopt that bulls-eye technique as a way to prevent hammer-follows when I chamber a first round ... it is inconsistent with the whole philosophy of keeping the finger out of the trigger guard until ready to fire. Instead, I'm going to ALWAYS grip the gun completely below the bottom of the grip-lever whenever I chamber a first round, to insure that the trigger stays blocked. Also, on my Kimber, my firing-pin is also blocked during that operation, which insures that the gun won't fire even if the sear somehow gets jiggled off the hammer ledge.
I'm also going to keep my trigger at the current 3 lbs, even though I much preferred it when it was lighter. And I'm going to monitor the trigger pull (with my gauge) fairly often, to insure that the sear spring isn't getting weaker with time. (And, if I ever decide that I need a stronger-still recoil spring, I'll need to increase the trigger pull some more, and test it with dummy rounds to insure that it doesn't hammer-follow).
My perfect trigger will have to be limited to my S&W69 .44mag (2-1/2 lbs, but feels like nothing ... don't TOUCH it until ready to fire). I maintain that even that trigger is safe for carry, provided that it is treated like "a switch" that must not be touched until ready to fire.
A trigger pull of 2 1/2 to 2 3/4 pounds is normal on an S&W revolver, but you only get that pull after manually cocking the hammer. I would not enter a potentially questionable situation with a revolver hammer cocked, and I would not enter the same situation with the hammer of an SA pistol cocked and safety off with the same pull weight.
Now I will admit, for the record, that I have never been in a gun fight; I have never shot anyone or even fired at anyone, nor have I ever been fired at by anyone. But when I carried a badge, I was in a few situations where I thought that might change in one or more aspects, and I would not have wanted to be carrying a gun with a trigger pull so light that a brush on my clothing could have fired a shot.
We all, I think, tend to believe that if we are ever in a crisis situation, we will be calm, cool and collected, just like on the range. Perfect stance, perfect sight picture, perfect trigger control. As I said, my experience has been limited and I am sure others posting on here have been in dozens of gunfights (or claim to have been), but I was pretty stressed out by even the possibility of bullets flying around. I don't think a super light target pull on a pistol (or having the hammer cocked on a revolver against regulations) would have done much toward reducing stress.
Jim
Now I will admit, for the record, that I have never been in a gun fight; I have never shot anyone or even fired at anyone, nor have I ever been fired at by anyone. But when I carried a badge, I was in a few situations where I thought that might change in one or more aspects, and I would not have wanted to be carrying a gun with a trigger pull so light that a brush on my clothing could have fired a shot.
We all, I think, tend to believe that if we are ever in a crisis situation, we will be calm, cool and collected, just like on the range. Perfect stance, perfect sight picture, perfect trigger control. As I said, my experience has been limited and I am sure others posting on here have been in dozens of gunfights (or claim to have been), but I was pretty stressed out by even the possibility of bullets flying around. I don't think a super light target pull on a pistol (or having the hammer cocked on a revolver against regulations) would have done much toward reducing stress.
Jim
While it is not often easy to get a fine trigger pull it can be done, and done without dangerously light weight.
Light weight can mask "flaws" in the trigger pull, and so seems better but a good trigger of 4-7lbs is just as good a trigger and safer. I marvel at the fellow who can tell the difference between a 2.5lb and a 3lb pull. when all else is the same. I cannot.
There is a point, with a semi auto where the trigger simply can be too light for safety. Even the jar of the mechanism working can trip it, and that is simply TOO LIGHT!
No, it doesn't have to be a 14lb long stagey, gritty trigger with a half mile of take up and a quarter mile of overtravel, but a <3lb trigger on a 1911 pattern gun is just courting trouble, IMHO.
YOU aren't the only thing that can pull the trigger, and a pull weight close to, or less than the weight of the gun is a risky business.
Despite the fact that it makes a good target gun, when so fitted, the 1911A1 wasn't designed as one, it was designed as a service weapon, so there is a limit to what one can, and should do to the trigger, otherwise, "you're off the map, lad, there be dragons here!!"
Light weight can mask "flaws" in the trigger pull, and so seems better but a good trigger of 4-7lbs is just as good a trigger and safer. I marvel at the fellow who can tell the difference between a 2.5lb and a 3lb pull. when all else is the same. I cannot.
There is a point, with a semi auto where the trigger simply can be too light for safety. Even the jar of the mechanism working can trip it, and that is simply TOO LIGHT!
No, it doesn't have to be a 14lb long stagey, gritty trigger with a half mile of take up and a quarter mile of overtravel, but a <3lb trigger on a 1911 pattern gun is just courting trouble, IMHO.
YOU aren't the only thing that can pull the trigger, and a pull weight close to, or less than the weight of the gun is a risky business.
Despite the fact that it makes a good target gun, when so fitted, the 1911A1 wasn't designed as one, it was designed as a service weapon, so there is a limit to what one can, and should do to the trigger, otherwise, "you're off the map, lad, there be dragons here!!"
If the hammer drops without the trigger being pulled, it is a DANGEROUS firearm.
The M1911A1 is not supposed to do that. Get it fixed (probably not by the guy who broke it).
I had that same issue, because I tweaked the sear spring during a detail strip/reassembly. The next time at the range, the hammer followed the slide once or twice on loading (within about 200rds). The third time the hammer followed the slide, it did so with enough force to fire the round in the chamber! (Thankfully, following the 4 Rules includes muzzle discipline, and the round hit somewhere 50-110yds downrange.)
The trigger was reset to 3.5lbs, from the 2.5lbs I had it set to. That fixed the issue.
The M1911A1 is not supposed to do that. Get it fixed (probably not by the guy who broke it).
I had that same issue, because I tweaked the sear spring during a detail strip/reassembly. The next time at the range, the hammer followed the slide once or twice on loading (within about 200rds). The third time the hammer followed the slide, it did so with enough force to fire the round in the chamber! (Thankfully, following the 4 Rules includes muzzle discipline, and the round hit somewhere 50-110yds downrange.)
The trigger was reset to 3.5lbs, from the 2.5lbs I had it set to. That fixed the issue.
Mike_Fontenot
New member
James_K said:
I agree. But I don't cock my 69, and I don't switch off the two safeties of my 1911, until I'm coming onto target and nearly ready to shoot.
Mike_Fontenot
New member
44_AMP said:
When the only thing that is preventing my 1911 from firing is the trigger not being pulled, I am on or very nearly on target, almost ready to shoot. During that brief time, I don't regard a very light trigger as inappropriate. At all other times, my 1911 has several other features that are preventing firing ... thumb safety blocks sear and hammer, grip-lever blocks trigger and firing-pin ... it's not going to fire even if something does exert a force on the trigger.
Mike_Fontenot
New member
raimius said:
I did the same, except that 3 lb was enough to solve the hammer-follow problem. I primarily did it to protect other people who might shoot my gun. My handling procedures protect me from hammer-follow, regardless of the lightness of the trigger: whenever I am not on or nearly on target, my thumb safety is ON, and I'm staying off the grip-lever. When I'm forced to have the thumb safety off, when I'm not on or nearly on target (like when chambering the first round, or when ejecting a live round), I keep my grip completely below the bottom of the grip lever so that I can't inadvertently compress it even a little bit, to insure that my trigger AND firing-pin are blocked.