I ought to admit here that I have pretty weak hands cause all I do is pound a keyboard (also with my head sometimes), which is why I don't shoot anything more powerful than a .45 auto. After all, Elmer Keith said that the .357 was good for someone with weak hands and so I have one of those, too.
1911 grip and safety release
- Thread starter Osageshooter
- Start date
For one handed shooting, I agree, but I think we're making the issue too complicated.
Maybe this would work:
While the thumbs down (fist) grip is stronger, the thumbs up is plenty strong enough when two hands are used and actually gives better control for some, while others prefer the thumbs down. For some thumbs down means one thumb horizontal and the other in a fist. For some, it means both "down" in a horizontal position which gives no more strength than thumbs up.
Real strength only comes from strong hand thumb down in a FIST and is useful or necessary for hard recoiling pistols.
For one handed shooting, there's no question that thumbs down controls recoil better, but that isn't to say that a one handed thumbs up grip isn't sufficient to control moderate recoil. Certainly 9mm and probably .40 and .45 as well. Since I'm going to be shooting today, I intend to shoot thumb up one handed instead of my normal thumb down. That will settle that issue for me and I can sit back and eat popcorn while watching others argue about it. Yes, I can be sinister in my old age.
AND, if the thread isn't locked up by then, I'll even give a brief report.
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Was able to get out to shoot.
No trouble at all controlling Sprgf. Champ with xtra thin grips, or P220 (CT Lasergrip) one handed thumbs up.
Also shot .44 Special and it started to thump me pretty good before long, so I went thumbs up, not because I prefer to shoot that way with a revolver, but because it let the palm of the hand absorb the recoil and give the web between thumb and forefinger a break.
No trouble at all controlling Sprgf. Champ with xtra thin grips, or P220 (CT Lasergrip) one handed thumbs up.
Also shot .44 Special and it started to thump me pretty good before long, so I went thumbs up, not because I prefer to shoot that way with a revolver, but because it let the palm of the hand absorb the recoil and give the web between thumb and forefinger a break.
The reasoning behind my choice of shooting style is not about recoil control. I have no doubt that the thumbs high method works to control recoil, allow for fast target acquisition, and fast follow up shots for many, many shooters. If it didn't it wouldn't dominate the shooting games. HOWEVER, control on the range is different from control in other situations such as in a close quarters fight (gun in hand), during contact shots, or when using the butt of your weapon as a striking surface, etc. And, regardless of how you might move to make gun take-aways more difficult, if you carry a gun for protection you may very well run into situations where having a strong grip can make all the difference. The moment you find yourself in that situation is not the time to need to make changes to how you're holding onto your gun.
I'm not saying that my old fashioned methodology and reasoning is the all that ends all, but neither is the thumbs high style. I am saying that, IMO, the old thumbs down "fist grip" is stronger and more practical in self defense/combat application than the thumbs high, which grew out of gun gaming where retention is not such an issue. There, the fastest way is the best way and grip strength doesn't really come into play, no one is trying to take your gun away and kill you with it.
Well, maybe the misunderstanding with regards to controlling the gun had to do with weapon retention--more so than during firing. I think that's what you're getting at.
However, here's my point:
If I can draw and shoot two handed thumbs up, which I do, and I can draw and shoot one handed thumb down (which I also do), and I can do either without the least bit of confusion,--- then it seems to me that if someone were trying to disarm me and murder me with my own gun, that reverting to a thumbs down more secure grip could be accomplished just as easily.
Now, admittedly, I'm not in LE and have no experience in weapon retention, but until convinced otherwise, I have confidence in my above statement. I also realize there's more to weapon retention than just a good grip.
A good grip can't hurt...
... and I won't argue that it will.
I also have not yet had to defend my weapon against an actual BG, intent on taking it from me.
But I do practice retention and takeaways with training shapes (wooden or rubber pistols, knives, clubs; PVC pipe, etc) on average probably at least once a week. (Schedule and opportunities allow for about three mat sessions per week, the last few years)
Grip falls way behind several other factors:
1) Awareness
2) Ma'ai (relative position and distance between self and attacker)
3) Kizushi (own body position and balance)
Given enough awareness to respond to what's happening, then the things that are really going to affect ma'ai and kizushi are your feet and your hips. Trying to do too much with hands or upper body strength when somebody rushes you is a pretty good way to ensure the faster and/or stronger guy wins the confrontation.
OTOH, moving off the line, and knowing how to pivot while maintaining your own balance, will enable you to negate an awful lot of attacks.
Let's say you have a good, strong grip, but you're off balance. The gun may not leave your hand, but is your wrist strong enough to resist both the other guy's hands? Odds are, no.
But if you pivot in a way that moves your body partially between the attacker and your pistol, you make him sacrifice his own balance to make the grab.
Without meaning to introduce too much veer, here, if you look at melee weapons as opposed to firearms, some takeaways/takedowns actually work better if the armed person keeps a grip - because the weapon then gets rotated to lock him up.
With training pistol shapes that have trigger guards, one of the things we have to be very careful of is not breaking the trigger finger of the guy holding the shape.
If you are really concerned that you might find yourself in a weapon retention scenario, I very strongly suggest you find a place that offers hand-to-hand training with an emphasis on weapon retention, and find out for yourself what does and doesn't work.
Talking about it, or reading about it, isn't the same as running hundreds or thousands of repetitions. We're all shooters, and should all understand the importance of muscle memory (and balance, and movement, and awareness).
Regards,
M
... and I won't argue that it will.
I also have not yet had to defend my weapon against an actual BG, intent on taking it from me.
But I do practice retention and takeaways with training shapes (wooden or rubber pistols, knives, clubs; PVC pipe, etc) on average probably at least once a week. (Schedule and opportunities allow for about three mat sessions per week, the last few years)
Grip falls way behind several other factors:
1) Awareness
2) Ma'ai (relative position and distance between self and attacker)
3) Kizushi (own body position and balance)
Given enough awareness to respond to what's happening, then the things that are really going to affect ma'ai and kizushi are your feet and your hips. Trying to do too much with hands or upper body strength when somebody rushes you is a pretty good way to ensure the faster and/or stronger guy wins the confrontation.
OTOH, moving off the line, and knowing how to pivot while maintaining your own balance, will enable you to negate an awful lot of attacks.
Let's say you have a good, strong grip, but you're off balance. The gun may not leave your hand, but is your wrist strong enough to resist both the other guy's hands? Odds are, no.
But if you pivot in a way that moves your body partially between the attacker and your pistol, you make him sacrifice his own balance to make the grab.
Without meaning to introduce too much veer, here, if you look at melee weapons as opposed to firearms, some takeaways/takedowns actually work better if the armed person keeps a grip - because the weapon then gets rotated to lock him up.
With training pistol shapes that have trigger guards, one of the things we have to be very careful of is not breaking the trigger finger of the guy holding the shape.
If you are really concerned that you might find yourself in a weapon retention scenario, I very strongly suggest you find a place that offers hand-to-hand training with an emphasis on weapon retention, and find out for yourself what does and doesn't work.
Talking about it, or reading about it, isn't the same as running hundreds or thousands of repetitions. We're all shooters, and should all understand the importance of muscle memory (and balance, and movement, and awareness).
Regards,
M
This is a very interesting discussion ... let me throw a bit of info in here ...
I recall reading a magazine article discussing the 60-40 issue being debated ... the author, whose name I can't recall, advocated (for a righty) holding the gun firmly in the right hand and then using the left hand to apply most of the pressure to control the gun when firing ... I don't remember if 60-40 was the breakdown, simply that more of the energy used to control the gun would come from the off hand through the left grip and the weak hand fingers over the strong, not the strong hand. I've tried it, and it seems to work, tho I don't use it when shooting.
The grip technique I like better is the push-pull system, where you push the gun forward with the strong hand and pull back with the weak ... when I use this technique, the sights are far easier to line up and keep lined up than if I'm holding the gun in a normal grip. It also seems to work to control recoil better.
As for the original question, I have average size hands and I never use the thumb-on-safety grip; it just feels awkward to me. I was taught to have my thumbs touching along the frame and pointed towards the target, and that's what works for me. I find that putting my thumb on the safety turns it into a lever if I use any pressure, throwing off my aim ...
The keys words above are "works for me." If putting your thumb on the safety works for you, use it. That's what practice is for; to find techniques that make you a better shooter.
As for the sword grip debate, a TV show a while back focused on knife fighting and suggested the knife was easier to control in a variety of attack angles with the thumb on top, pressing about where the blade meets the grip. The guy doing the demonstrating didn't say it was the best in all situations, simply that it was good in many and a great place to start if trying to defend yourself using a knife.
I recall reading a magazine article discussing the 60-40 issue being debated ... the author, whose name I can't recall, advocated (for a righty) holding the gun firmly in the right hand and then using the left hand to apply most of the pressure to control the gun when firing ... I don't remember if 60-40 was the breakdown, simply that more of the energy used to control the gun would come from the off hand through the left grip and the weak hand fingers over the strong, not the strong hand. I've tried it, and it seems to work, tho I don't use it when shooting.
The grip technique I like better is the push-pull system, where you push the gun forward with the strong hand and pull back with the weak ... when I use this technique, the sights are far easier to line up and keep lined up than if I'm holding the gun in a normal grip. It also seems to work to control recoil better.
As for the original question, I have average size hands and I never use the thumb-on-safety grip; it just feels awkward to me. I was taught to have my thumbs touching along the frame and pointed towards the target, and that's what works for me. I find that putting my thumb on the safety turns it into a lever if I use any pressure, throwing off my aim ...
The keys words above are "works for me." If putting your thumb on the safety works for you, use it. That's what practice is for; to find techniques that make you a better shooter.
As for the sword grip debate, a TV show a while back focused on knife fighting and suggested the knife was easier to control in a variety of attack angles with the thumb on top, pressing about where the blade meets the grip. The guy doing the demonstrating didn't say it was the best in all situations, simply that it was good in many and a great place to start if trying to defend yourself using a knife.
I don't think sword techniques carry over into knife techniques. It may sound like something foolish and irrelevant but people still kill one another with swords, which is not to say there are many sword fights.
Likewise, there are a lot more shootings than there are gunfights, too. But I think that not too much will carry over from competitive shooting into "real" gunfighting. I say that knowing that some well known gunfighters of the past were also excellent competitive shooters, so there must be something there. Here I am think of the Askins and of Jordan, all of whom, coincidentally were with the Border Patrol. All the same, others with just as much experience cautioned against confusing competitive target shooting with combat shooting. It starts to become a little bewildering to an ordinary simple minded person like me. I think some of that starts when one person takes another person's technique and builds on it while ignoring the reasons behind the other person's technique. Pretty soon the technique gets written in stone and who dares dispute the writing on the stone tablets?
Likewise, there are a lot more shootings than there are gunfights, too. But I think that not too much will carry over from competitive shooting into "real" gunfighting. I say that knowing that some well known gunfighters of the past were also excellent competitive shooters, so there must be something there. Here I am think of the Askins and of Jordan, all of whom, coincidentally were with the Border Patrol. All the same, others with just as much experience cautioned against confusing competitive target shooting with combat shooting. It starts to become a little bewildering to an ordinary simple minded person like me. I think some of that starts when one person takes another person's technique and builds on it while ignoring the reasons behind the other person's technique. Pretty soon the technique gets written in stone and who dares dispute the writing on the stone tablets?
I think everyone overthinks the issue.
I had to go outside to shoot to see what I do.
I found that I leave my thumb down, have never bumped the safety on. I can transition between one hand and two hand shooting without adjusting my grip. In general my position is that once the safety comes off it stays off until I reload and holster the pistol. (I do keep the trigger finger off the trigger as the threat diminishes).
I don't have a 1911 - mine is a 1991 Officer Model.
You'd be a lot better off practicing on the range than "over thinking."
I had to go outside to shoot to see what I do.
I found that I leave my thumb down, have never bumped the safety on. I can transition between one hand and two hand shooting without adjusting my grip. In general my position is that once the safety comes off it stays off until I reload and holster the pistol. (I do keep the trigger finger off the trigger as the threat diminishes).
I don't have a 1911 - mine is a 1991 Officer Model.
You'd be a lot better off practicing on the range than "over thinking."
Nobby said:
Yes, you can make that move with your thumb after the initial, split-second when you realize someone just grabbed for your firearm.
Unfortunately, that initial split second is the decisive moment.
If you are already holding the gun as firmly as possible, with the "thumb gate closed" (thumb curled down), you have a brief extra window that you would not otherwise have. If you habitually hold the firearm with the thumb gate open, that moment of initial contact becomes much stronger for the assailant and much weaker for you.
Too bad we can't go out & try this in person. It's easy to show with a blue gun, difficult to describe using words only. But mark me down as agreeing with WC145 -- curling the thumbs down as in a fist creates a very strong, sure grip that works extremely well for gun retention but provides no impediment to shooting well.
pax
A good grip is a plus...
... and that's fine by me.
But instead of worrying about grip, if somebody is trying to take my weapon, odds are I'm shifting my right foot clockwise away from them (assuming they're in front of me, and the gun is drawn - which it would have to be for a discussion of grip), pulling my gun hand back against my right hip, and punching them in the face with my left.
If they were grabbing from the rear, then the right foot and hip would swing counter-clockwise; the gun hand would stay near my hip but possibly punch slightly down and forward (away from the assailant), and I'd be setting up for a knee-stop kick with my left foot or a back left elbow strike.
The thing is, they can focus on the weapon. It's a tool. I'm the threat. It doesn't pay for me to lose sight of that.
The other thing is, I train these reflexes on a regular basis. Also, in the styles I practice, blocks are not standalone movements; they are usually secondary results of strikes.
Every so often, a "Why study MA when I have a gun?" thread pops up. This is why - you want to be able to retain your weapon, or achieve the draw, in order for the fact that you have the gun to do you any good.
So we can debate grips, but it's really a good idea to learn basic evasion/attack movement.
... and that's fine by me.
But instead of worrying about grip, if somebody is trying to take my weapon, odds are I'm shifting my right foot clockwise away from them (assuming they're in front of me, and the gun is drawn - which it would have to be for a discussion of grip), pulling my gun hand back against my right hip, and punching them in the face with my left.
If they were grabbing from the rear, then the right foot and hip would swing counter-clockwise; the gun hand would stay near my hip but possibly punch slightly down and forward (away from the assailant), and I'd be setting up for a knee-stop kick with my left foot or a back left elbow strike.
The thing is, they can focus on the weapon. It's a tool. I'm the threat. It doesn't pay for me to lose sight of that.
The other thing is, I train these reflexes on a regular basis. Also, in the styles I practice, blocks are not standalone movements; they are usually secondary results of strikes.
Every so often, a "Why study MA when I have a gun?" thread pops up. This is why - you want to be able to retain your weapon, or achieve the draw, in order for the fact that you have the gun to do you any good.
So we can debate grips, but it's really a good idea to learn basic evasion/attack movement.
MLeake,
No argument there.
Again, however, it's not about what you plan to do "if someone grabs for the gun." It's about what you will already be doing at the moment you are blindsided.
Yeah, I know: online, nobody ever gets blindsided. We all see it coming and avoid it. We can't get surprised by anything the BG does, ever.
Real life isn't quite that simple. In real life, people (even good guys!) get surprised sometimes. Your habitual grip can make a difference in those circumstances, allowing you to hold onto the gun during the split second it takes for you to realize someone is grabbing for your gun.
The solid grip gives you the time you need to work your well-trained retention technique. But it will probably make no difference at all if you don't have a retention technique or haven't regularly practiced it. It's not a question of "doing this instead of doing that." It's simply making a habit of holding the firearm in a manner that allows you to shoot well and is also most likely to work well for retention.
pax
No argument there.
Again, however, it's not about what you plan to do "if someone grabs for the gun." It's about what you will already be doing at the moment you are blindsided.
Yeah, I know: online, nobody ever gets blindsided. We all see it coming and avoid it. We can't get surprised by anything the BG does, ever.
Real life isn't quite that simple. In real life, people (even good guys!) get surprised sometimes. Your habitual grip can make a difference in those circumstances, allowing you to hold onto the gun during the split second it takes for you to realize someone is grabbing for your gun.
The solid grip gives you the time you need to work your well-trained retention technique. But it will probably make no difference at all if you don't have a retention technique or haven't regularly practiced it. It's not a question of "doing this instead of doing that." It's simply making a habit of holding the firearm in a manner that allows you to shoot well and is also most likely to work well for retention.
pax
Pax...
... for what it's worth, it's entirely possible that when I go to one-hand mode, I shift to thumb under, but if so I haven't noticed. Next time I can get to a range with a 1911, I'll check it out.
That'll be a while though, because I work defense contract stuff in theater, and my company issues S&W M&P9's.
Probably won't get to test to see what I do, when I am not thinking about it, until November.
As far as getting blindsided goes, I agree with you that it's a possibility that's always there - which is why I won't argue with the benefits of a stronger grip; it's exactly why I argue that some reflexes need to be trained to a (near) unconscious level.
As far as strength goes, my primary grip strength comes from my little finger, as a result of aikido open hand and sword practice (from little finger to base of thumb; softer grip by each finger as you get closer to index finger). I don't notice much difference in grip strength when I hold somebody's wrist or forearm if I move my thumb a bit either way, so in my case I doubt it makes much difference whether my thumb is high or low on the pistol.
But I will definitely put the question to the test in November.
Regards,
M
... for what it's worth, it's entirely possible that when I go to one-hand mode, I shift to thumb under, but if so I haven't noticed. Next time I can get to a range with a 1911, I'll check it out.
That'll be a while though, because I work defense contract stuff in theater, and my company issues S&W M&P9's.
Probably won't get to test to see what I do, when I am not thinking about it, until November.
As far as getting blindsided goes, I agree with you that it's a possibility that's always there - which is why I won't argue with the benefits of a stronger grip; it's exactly why I argue that some reflexes need to be trained to a (near) unconscious level.
As far as strength goes, my primary grip strength comes from my little finger, as a result of aikido open hand and sword practice (from little finger to base of thumb; softer grip by each finger as you get closer to index finger). I don't notice much difference in grip strength when I hold somebody's wrist or forearm if I move my thumb a bit either way, so in my case I doubt it makes much difference whether my thumb is high or low on the pistol.
But I will definitely put the question to the test in November.
Regards,
M
I understand the points MLeake is making about martial arts practice and application. Like I said before, I didn't just fall off the turnip truck. I've been teaching kempo and training boxers and kickboxers since 1992, I have extensive experience in karate, jujitsu, wing chun, and escrima and spent a few years in the ring kickboxing. I have military and law enforcement experience (military long ago, currently a LEO). I'm sure that he would agree with what I have found over the years - what works in the dojo does not always work outside it. That doesn't negate the training and certainly you're better off with it than without, but it isn't always possible to make those things happen in a real fight.
If I'm dealing with someone while on duty things can go from calm and controlled to OH S**T in the blink of an eye, if I have my gun in hand the first stage of retention, before any of the movements, techniques, counters, etc, is my grip. And keep in mind that retention is not necessarily an issue of someone trying to take my weapon, it could likely be an issue of me maintaining control of it while fighting and trying to put it into use or, at the very least, trying to not drop it. Under those circumstances might I use my gun as a blunt instrument? Possibly. Are contact shots a viable option? Possibly. Might I have to shoot one handed under such circumstances? Probably. If I'm able to disengage and bring my gun to bear, will that strong "fist grip" be important to me when I'm trying to shoot my attacker and I'm breathing hard and all pumped up with adrenaline? Definitely. Do I train to do these things? Yes, I do.
I use a modified Weaver stance because it closely replicates the body and hand positioning for interviewing, fighting (my style anyway), and shooting - long guns and handguns. I use the "fist grip" and support with my off hand because it is strong and works with both pistols and revolvers (my duty gun is a 1911, my BUG is a snubby). By having one basic way for everything I never have to think about it, it is all second nature.
I know this is all rather old school simple and not particularly sophisticated, and probably not quite as fast on the range as "thumbs high", but IMO, simple is better and the KISS principle helps to keep Mr. Murphy at bay.
If I'm dealing with someone while on duty things can go from calm and controlled to OH S**T in the blink of an eye, if I have my gun in hand the first stage of retention, before any of the movements, techniques, counters, etc, is my grip. And keep in mind that retention is not necessarily an issue of someone trying to take my weapon, it could likely be an issue of me maintaining control of it while fighting and trying to put it into use or, at the very least, trying to not drop it. Under those circumstances might I use my gun as a blunt instrument? Possibly. Are contact shots a viable option? Possibly. Might I have to shoot one handed under such circumstances? Probably. If I'm able to disengage and bring my gun to bear, will that strong "fist grip" be important to me when I'm trying to shoot my attacker and I'm breathing hard and all pumped up with adrenaline? Definitely. Do I train to do these things? Yes, I do.
I use a modified Weaver stance because it closely replicates the body and hand positioning for interviewing, fighting (my style anyway), and shooting - long guns and handguns. I use the "fist grip" and support with my off hand because it is strong and works with both pistols and revolvers (my duty gun is a 1911, my BUG is a snubby). By having one basic way for everything I never have to think about it, it is all second nature.
I know this is all rather old school simple and not particularly sophisticated, and probably not quite as fast on the range as "thumbs high", but IMO, simple is better and the KISS principle helps to keep Mr. Murphy at bay.
Dojo and street
WC145, I agree entirely, no battle plan survives initial engagement.
But you also are well aware of "train like we fight." We can't train for every possibility out there, but building solid foundations and reflexes, and training a couple of default options, can go a long way toward adapting to whatever may come.
I also use a Weaver stance. Partly because it's what the Gunny taught when I was temporarily attached to a Navy security department while in between phases of flight training, and partly because the basic posture is pretty much a front stance, which I grew comfortable with when I did some kempo in the early 90's.
I also use the push-pull, but with thumbs higher and parallel. Thumb down in a fist feels awkward for me when using the push-pull.
When I get home, I'll play around with the one-handed and let you know what I find myself defaulting to.
WC145, I agree entirely, no battle plan survives initial engagement.
But you also are well aware of "train like we fight." We can't train for every possibility out there, but building solid foundations and reflexes, and training a couple of default options, can go a long way toward adapting to whatever may come.
I also use a Weaver stance. Partly because it's what the Gunny taught when I was temporarily attached to a Navy security department while in between phases of flight training, and partly because the basic posture is pretty much a front stance, which I grew comfortable with when I did some kempo in the early 90's.
I also use the push-pull, but with thumbs higher and parallel. Thumb down in a fist feels awkward for me when using the push-pull.
When I get home, I'll play around with the one-handed and let you know what I find myself defaulting to.