1911 Full Length Guide Rods

Perhaps you feel the guide rod adds rigidity to the process; perhaps it does, but that would seem to be a characteristic that has little or nothing to do with how well the gun runs or how well it hits what you're trying to hit.

As I wrote earlier, my 1911 feeds and functions just fine with the FLGR or the standard length. But with the FLGR it feels and sounds smoother, so I use one. Maybe it's a false sense of security, but any added benefit is a good thing, even if it's all in my head. There's a thing call "The Zen of Shooting" and if you feel confidence in your head, you just might shoot better. Correct? If it doesn't work for you, then don't do it. But it works for me, so why all the negativity?

As for my custom 1911 that came from the pistolsmith with a FLGR installed, who am I, or who is anyone else to question a gentleman that is a member of the American Pistolsmith's Guild? He was sent a bone stock Colt MKIV Serise 70 pistol and was told to make it Bullseye accurate. It came back shooting. 2.5 inch groups at 50 yards and I'll be damned if I'm going to change perfection. Can anyone build a more accurate 1911 using a standard guide rod? Then build one and get back with me.
 
The rod is not anchored to anything at its base (head), so it's not reducing the movement or improving the alignment of any associated parts, it's just along for the ride.
I'll agree that there's no reason to mess with success, I just doubt that the guide rod is contributing anything to your gun's accuracy or reliability.
 
From the book “The Colt .45 Automatic, A Shop Manual” --- Jerry Kuhnhausen.

Page 153

“ Full-Length Recoil Spring Guides.”

“When the stem of the recoil spring guide is extended to full length, the recoil spring then has full middle support. This allows even compression of the spring coils as the slide moves to the rear. The stem holds the spring on centerline, preventing bind and making the absorption of recoil energy more uniform. This thrust centering makes slide cycling consistent and helps feeding and extraction.”

Also see Figure 203 page 153

“…This system, [full length guide rod] when used with a recoil shock buffer and with the correct weight recoil spring, makes slide cycling much more consistent.”

We all know that consistency equals accuracy, that, and I’m not about to argue with anything Jerry Kuhnhausen puts in print. So there we have it. FLGR, shock buffers, and the correct weight recoil spring adds up to a more accurate M1911.
 
The rod is not anchored to anything at its base (head),

I’m well aware of that. I’ve built two M1911s from the ground up. Also own the custom Colt mentioned earlier.

so it's not reducing the movement or improving the alignment of any associated parts, it's just along for the ride.

I disagree, see my post #23.….and we will have to agree to disagree.
 
Jerry Kuhnhausen wrote wonderful books about M1911's
But, John Moses Browning invented them and he did design M1911's with
a short recoil spring guide rod.
John Moses Browning 1 Jerry Kuhnhausen 0
 
Mike38:

That's an interesting set of observations on Kuhnhausen's part. Others here can (and have) cited a number of things that Kuhnhausen got wrong. While he is clearly an expert on 1911s, it might be argued that he's not infallible, and in writing his manual he was NOT speaking Ex Cathedra on all matter technnical and practical regarding the 1911. More importantly, his comments and observations, are not evidence that his comments are correct.

I'd like to see some proof of performance improvements when using a FLGR. Kuhnhausen was an expert who retired almost 30 years ago, is dead and no longer around to talk about new discoveries, new recommendations, or to share his possibly updated thinking on the matter; his book hasn't been updated since 1990.

Kuhnhausen also appears to consider the FLGR as just part of a "system" that should also include a shock buffer. Do you use a shock buffer, as well? I wonder why this Kuhnhausen recommendations seems to be ignored by so many otherwise savvy 1911 shooters and pistol makers? Most do ignore it, you know -- including many very successful competitors in the gun games and Bullseye.

If a shooter using a FLGR can't point to performance improvements, it seems to be a bit like that same shooter wearing the same underwear or socks for every match -- a practice that hurts nothing and possibly improves the shooter's state of mind going into the match. I'd like to see more in the way of verifiable evidence or data...

A Ransom Rest test could put this argument/discussion to rest.

Anybody here have the necessary equipment? That would show us whether the FLGR is a meaningful enhancement or just another superstition. This might be something that one of the GUN mags could undertake... I'm surprised it hasn't been done, already. Perhaps it has, but I can find no evidence of anyone having done it and sharing the results. Such evidence would convince me.
 
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Walt, yes I do use shock buffers in my 1911's. And the Ransom Rest idea is a great one. If someone out there is willing to give this a test it would be great.
 
Auila Blanca Post #15

I will just put two cents in here and then stand way back from the recoil.
With a very soft recoil spring, let say 11 or 12 lbs, might this be a condition
for some binding in the open area of the first illustration of post #15.




Maybe!!!
 
I have one 1911 that came with a flgr, it is a royal pain in the butt to take down. As posted don't waste your money!
 
stand way back from the recoil.
My good man, myths aside the recoil spring can not bind or kink.
The recoil or more accurately return spring's function is to return the slide to
battery,it will do this regardless of weight.Because the M1911 was designed to fire 230gn .45 caliber ball cartridges a 16lb weight spring is the nominally
balanced weight,remember that more initial resistance will result in a harder
return impact and viceversa.If your GC is running good don't fix it,M1911'are
by heritage military weapons and for the most part accuracy is in the hands of
the beholder.
 
A Ransom Rest test could put this argument/discussion to rest.
Walt,it was done in July 2000 by Charles Petty of American Handgunner.
He actually found the standard setup to be a bit more accurate but given all
variables it should practically be a wash.The article can be found on line if
you dig,it is copywrighted so I am hesitant to paste it.
And even that will not put this to sleep,once folks spend money on something
come hell or high tide it had better be the best thing they ever did,I know this
because personally I don't make no mistakes neither.
 
Jerry Kuhnhausen wrote wonderful books about M1911's
But, John Moses Browning invented them and he did design M1911's with
a short recoil spring guide rod.
John Moses Browning 1 Jerry Kuhnhausen 0

As much as I respect John Moses Browning and the 1911 pistol he designed, from first hand experience I'll have to give this one to Jerry Kuhnhausen.

As for the analogy that JMB design the 1911 with a short spring guide so that's what should be used, how about beavertail grip safeties, all the different slide lock (thumb safeties) including the tear drop 1911A1, arched mainspring housings and the many other features found on guns labeled as 1911's.
Seeing that JMB did not design the 1911 with those parts should we not use those parts?

Now about the Full Length Guide Rod versus the Short Spring Guide, I'll go on record saying I could care less about which of the two anyone chooses to use in their pistol.

However, from my experience the FLGR can and will improve the accuracy in some 1911 style pistols, the degree of accuracy gain will depend solely on the barrel fit and loose tolerances of the pistol.
On a very loose fit barrel the FLGR will force the barrel into a more consistent lock up because of the front and rear support of the rod under spring pressure.

Will this make a pistol with a loose fit barrel cut X's at the 25 or 50 yard line, no I've never seen that happen, but I have seen group size reduced.

If you have a pistol with a hard fit barrel you will be hard pressed to see any accuracy gain using a FLGR even from a mechanical rest.

Can a FLGR smooth out the cycling of a 1911 style pistol?
From my experience yes it can and most often does, do not construe this to mean you have to have one in your pistol.

There's also the benefit of added weight the FLGR will give a pistol, if that's what you are seeking.

Do I use a FLGR in my 1911 style guns, game guns I do, in my carry 1911 style guns I don't, I don't need the added weight.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com
 
My first 1911 was a somewhat "improved" nickel-plated Norinco built by a 1911 gunsmith, George Stringer, who participated here for some years, before a severe health problem forced his retirement and ended his participation in discussions. That gun came with a FLGR installed. I shot it for a year or two, and it was a great gun. I later got interested in another gun, and that 1911 was traded away.

I think a recoil spring CAN bind or kink, but I also think that's only a problem when the metal of the spring has been damaged or has begun to fail. Then the kink becomes more extreme and things go haywire. I think I had THAT happen with the Norinco, with the FLGR installed. It stopped running, and it was a bear to disassemble -- but that was probably as much due to my unfamiliarity with FLGRs as anything else.

What's different about how a recoil spring functions in a gun with the FLGR installed? If the slide/dustcover does it's job, the spring, even if it seems to "want" to kink, has only a limited space in which to do it. The length of the unsupported spring is quite small, as can be seen in the following animation. (I tried to find an x-ray version of this same activity showing an actual gun being fired, but couldn't find one. One was once available, but the link no longer works. You can argue, rightly, that this is an animation -- and it reflects an artists interpretation.)

I noticed, too, that one of the 1911 animation showed that the barrel and slide didn't move until AFTER the round had exited the barrel. These sort of animations are sometimes scary. The one below is very fast, but the barrel and slide begin move very quickly.

http://www.m1911.org/images/full_anim.gif

If the spring material ISN'T failing, I don't really understand how the spring material can kink or bind that much -- as it's movement is too constrained. Notice in the illustration above that there is only a short space where the recoil spring COULD bind or kink. If the springs are consistently binding or kinking, I think you'd be able to see changes to the spring (through deformation) visible when the spring is removed and laid on a flat surface. There should also be obvious wear marks on the barrel or inside the gun's slide or frame, as well.

I mentioned my 1911 failure above. Perhaps I should have replaced that unknown recoil spring when I first got the gun, but it seemed to be working properly -- and I've always believed in the adage, "if it's not broke don't fix it." It came to me in good working order from a well-regarded 1911 gunsmith. It did not come with a shock buffer (which Mike38 might argue is part of the problem.) I probably only put a 350-400 rounds through the Norinco while I had it. The gun I got in it's place was a SIG P-210-6, a beauty of a different sort and VERY accurate. (It did have a FLGR...:))

I'm looking forward to Ransom Rest results. I hope we can find someone able to do them for us.

That said, I did find some results. I also found this:http://www.shootingillustrated.com/index.php/17812/why-full-length-guide-rod-why/ The author, in the cited article, wrote this:

A few years back, an in-depth study of the full-length guide rod was undertaken. Guns were fired from a Ransom Rest with and without the part. It was clearly shown the full-length guide rod had nothing to do with a particular pistol’s accuracy or reliability.​

Bill Wilson's gun site http://www.wilsoncombat.com/faq_handgun.htm says the following:

Does a full-length guide rod improve accuracy?

Full-length guide rods were designed to improve cycling and to keep the recoil spring from binding up. Although, increasing accuracy is not the intention, it could slightly improve accuracy by helping slide lock up.

No mention of buffers, but he does sell them.

Still another link, using a Wilson Combat full-length guide rode in Ransom Rest tests, did show improvements, virtually halving group sizes. That particular gun apparently needed all the help it could get, and it got it:

http://www.ammoland.com/2011/07/group-gripper-1911-parts/#axzz3JLL6bg2G

Here's another site that did Ransom Rest tests. They noticed an improvement when a bad recoil spring was used with a FLGR (but only in cycling smoothness.) http://www.frfrogspad.com/miscelln.htm#guide%20rods
Q. What is the advantage of the full length spring guide rods I see on many current .45 autos?

A. Not much. While proponents claim it improves the smoothness of operation that doesn't hold up under testing. A friend used an electronic instrumentation set-up to look in detail at the claims made by FLGR fans. Two of the test guns were ancient military clunkers, three were el-cheapo 1911 knock-offs, two were Wilsons, three were Kimbers, two were Colts, and there was one Les Baer.

Each gun was set-up on the bench with accelerometer sensors, and slide motion instrumentation. A high-speed laboratory camera recorded super-slow-motion imagery of the firing sequence. Each gun had two full magazines put through it, the first with a standard short spring guide and the second with a stainless steel FLGR

With FLGR installed in no case did the FLGR make any significant difference that could be measured with instrumentation. None of the guns equipped with instrumentation to measure force linearity during recoil and tested with and without FLGRs showed any measurable difference in smoothness during actual firing.

However, when a horribly bent and kinked spring was installed, there were smoothness differences detectable both by hand and with the instrumentation, but ONLY when the slide was being retracted MANUALLY-- not when the gun was being fired. The forces generated during firing recoil and imparted to the mass of the slide vastly overwhelmed any small roughness from the kinked spring.

Keep in mind that with a standard (short) spring guide, that the spring is fully contained on the guide when the slide is retracted.

As to claims that the FLGRs add weight and reduce muzzle climb, consider how much they weigh. I don't think so.

And... they negate one of the advantages of the 1911 design--the ability to completely disassemble the pistol without any tools (a problem further exacerbated by the current fad of using Torx-head or Allen-head screws and other parts that deviate from the original specs. The original design was such that the lip on the sear spring could be used as a screw driver to remove the grips and the magazine catch, the shaft of the safety as a punch to remove the mainspring housing, and the hammer strut could be used as a pin punch (something you can't do with the current square struts).

Out of all of these discussions, only the Wilson GROUP GRIPPER seemed to add something in terms of accuracy, and the Wilson part is a slightly different variation of the typical FLGR design. There were no mentions of shock buffers being used with any of the FLGRs, including the Wilson version. Wonder if the shock buffer would have improved things even more -- according to Kuhnhausen, they're both part of the system.

It would appear that Ransom Rest tests aren't always definitive.

.
 
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Seeing that JMB did not design the 1911 with those parts should we not use those parts?
You should use anything you want.This discussion however is about whether the
full length guide rod is worth the metal it's made of.
And my point there was that Browning designed the guide rod dimensions based
on functionality,whereas Kuhnhausen wrote an opinion based on his business model.Again and again it has been shown that the full length rod does not add
to the pistols functionality,J M Browning got it right.
 
Any additional smoothness or lower recoil is because of the extra weight of the FLGR. The 1911 is heavy enough for me so if I do buy a 1911 with a FLGR, it gets a standard guide rod and plug before I even shoot it.
 
Well I've shot 1911 .45's for quite some time, reload for them and enjoy them very much. I was pretty confident I knew how they worked and then this thread sometime back humbled me.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=547404

It's about 'how 'Series 80 Colts have the "quarter-cock shelf" in place of the captive half-cock notch.' (Rickb and others set me straight on this.)

So while I know a bunch I realize there's a lot, LOT more I don't know. I've followed these FLGR discussions in the past and this one has a lot of information and has remained civil and informative.

Thanks to polyphemus, mike38, walt, rickb-in fact everybody that has contributed-IMhO this is what makes TFL such a great place to visit.
 
Hunter Customs said:
However, from my experience the FLGR can and will improve the accuracy in some 1911 style pistols, the degree of accuracy gain will depend solely on the barrel fit and loose tolerances of the pistol.
On a very loose fit barrel the FLGR will force the barrel into a more consistent lock up because of the front and rear support of the rod under spring pressure.

I'm not disputing what you've observed -- just trying to understand HOW it might come about.

One of the links I posted also said that if a gun was poorly fit, the full length guide rod might force a slightly better alignment. Seems as though THAT could simply be a serendipitous event, only working with SOME GUNS if that FLGR helps the barrel and slide to somehow CONSISTENTLY zig where it had previously consistently ZAGGED when in battery or moving into battery. Isn't it only when the slide and barrel are in battery and during the first 1/10th of an inch of slide and barrel travel that any of this really matters with regard to accuracy?

I will accept on its face that you've seen some improvements with some guns when a FLGR is used. Perhaps I don't understand what you mean when you say that the FLGR is offering front and rear support.

I'm not a 1911 expert -- had a few -- but do try hard to understand what's going on. As the gun is fired, the barrel is somewhat locked down at the front end by the barrel bushing, while the rear of the guide rod -- whichever one is used, is being pressed by the recoil spring against the recevier. Until the barrel and slide have moved only a fraction of an inch, the front and rear support is essentially the same regardless of the type of guide rod used. After that fraction of an inch, the bullet has left the gun...

Maybe its simply more consistent lockup with a poorly fit gun? It would seem to be of questionable value in a high-dollar custom gun. And for the poor fit gun, it seems as though a slightly heavier recoil spring might do as much, as long as it's not so heavy as to impair proper function.
 
I've had two with full length rods and still have one. I'm not crazy about it but I probably wont change it anytime soon. I won't ever have one with a buffer tho.
 
Even the experts seem to disagree. Mr. Hunter thinks a FLGR can improve accuracy (and I certainly cannot debate him). Ed Brown doesn't think so:
Do guide rods increase accuracy? Do any of your handguns come with a guide rod?

Our Classic Custom pistols are furnished with two-piece guide rods. They smooth out the cycling slightly, add a bit of weight to the muzzle, and may increase the life of the recoil spring. They do not enhance the accuracy or reliability of the gun, therefore we do not include one with the Executive series or Kobra series. If you would like to have a guide rod, they are a simple part to install as they drop right in. The two piece design is recommended, because it is so easy to disassemble and reassemble.
http://www.edbrown.com/FAQ.htm#aas

Most of my 1911s have standard guide rods and I prefer them. But I have three that have FLGRs (both one and two-piece guide rods). I don't press check so it is truly not that big a deal to me. The guns with the FLGRs are slightly slower to field strip and re-assemble but I've never bothered to replace the guide rods on any of my pistols.
 
Until the barrel and slide have moved only a fraction of an inch, the front and rear support is essentially the same regardless of the type of guide rod used. After that fraction of an inch, the bullet has left the gun...

Walt, I'll try to explain a little better why the FLGR can reduce group size in some 1911 style guns.

You mentioned the Wilson Group Gripper, for those unaware of how it worked it worked off the principle of forcing the rear of a loose fit barrel into a more consistent lockup and a FLGR does the same, however the FLGR does not require a special notched barrel link or a tab on the recoil shield (head as some call it) of the spring guide to maintain a more consistent lockup at the rear of the barrel.

In your statement above you think the Short Spring Guide and the FLGR have the same front and rear support, they do not.
The recoil shield of both guides is in contact with the lower lug of the barrel, however the front of the Short Spring Guide not having any support allows the spring guide to tilt, therefore the recoil shield of the spring guide does not keep the same contact and pressure each time the gun is cycled, this will allow for inconsistent lockup of a loose fit barrel.

Now the FLGR does have front support and can not tilt, because of this the spring pressure from the recoil spring along with the front and rear support of the FLGR force the rear of the barrel into a more consistent lockup every time the gun is cycled.

Now for all reading this please do not confuse your thinking that the more consistent lockup will give you match grade accuracy in a loose fit gun, it does not, but the more consistent lockup can and does improve the accuracy to some degree of such gun.

There's other things in play here when discussing spring guides, look at the recoil shield of the Short Spring Guide versus the FLGR, in general the recoil shield of the FLGR is larger then the Short Spring Guide therefore allowing more contact surface with the barrel lug.

Another thing about FLGR's the recoil shield should have an apposing angle milled on the back side of the shield to allow for better contact with the lower lug of the barrel, I seen many guns with FLGR's that do not have this and this may be why some have not seen any accuracy results when testing both.


KyJim, I can understand why Ed Brown does not believe that a FLGR will be any benefit in the accuracy of his guns, I would agree with him whole heartedly.
I already stated one would be hard pressed to see any accuracy gain in a gun with a hard fit barrel, with the close tolerances that Ed builds his guns I would consider the barrel fit of his guns to be hard fit.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com
 
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