1911 draw by Chic Gaylord

[ClarkEMyers]

More useful than repeating other threads on cocked and locked

More useful than repeating other threads on cocked and locked is noticing that Sergeant Loughnan is NOT Mr. Gaylord's ideal for using the 1911 but rather an example of an individual under orders overcoming the handicap of a bad policy when he can't change it.

The story goes that Sergeant Loughnan was shot once when he was not able to do anything with an empty chamber and determined that would not happen again. Under orders to carry an empty pistol there was no option for cocked and locked or loaded and hammer down so loading in a hurry was his choice.

Bill Jordan was not a fan of the 1911 in his book No Second Place Winner and I don't think anybody ever mocked Mr. Jordan for putting his finger on the trigger of his revolver early in his fast draw - almost certainly not to his face. Similarly there is no reason to expect today's consensus behavior from other folks 50 years ago.

Doubtless today Sergeant Loughnan would follow the modern technique of holding the pistol sideways

 

[Archie]

Holsters or Technique?

There are some who think Chic Gaylord advanced the art of holstermaking.

"Advanced"? In what manner? From what I know, Gaylord's main contribution was double stitching and construction methods. Bell Charter Oak Holsters offer "Chic Gaylord Brand Holsters" and claim Gaylord invented the thumb break retainer. If that's true, he did well. However, his designs were never what I would consider to be 'advanced'; even for the time. Take a look at http://www.bellcharteroakholsters.com and check out the duty holsters presented as designed by Gaylord. Several of them do not allow the pistol to be properly gripped prior to removal from the holster (no space under the trigger guard). I will note the first time I say Gaylord's book was in the early '70s and many, many people (including me) still carried revolvers.

I think the designs of Tom Threepersons, S. D. Myres, and George Lawrence surpass Gaylord’s designs. But that can be a matter of individual taste. I know what I want a holster to do and not do.

As I admitted, I've never seen a Gaylord holster in the flesh, so they might be somewhat different than the various pictures and internet reproductions. I'm willing to look at one or six and then alter my opinion. However, as I said in my original post, Gaylord was a holster maker of some renown. It is his ‘gunfighting’ information I find lacking.

Another example of his dismal lack of knowledge shows in his discussion of carrying a automatic with a round chambered, in the form of a 1911 Government Model. Gaylord presents, as ‘…the way to do it…’ a reverse twist holster which mandates the user pass the muzzle of the gun past his own body, as he is cocking the hammer. Okay, in those days few men carried a 45 auto cocked and locked – and from Gaylord’s devotion to revolvers, I’m sure he would have had fits at the mere suggestion – it does not take much thought to prefer a straight draw holster which does not cross the user’s body. Even in the ‘50s we knew about that sort of thing.

 

[Archie]

The Devil is in the Details, isn't it?

While it certainly is dated technique wise. Chic was the real deal! He taught me to crouch and point shoot (Fairbarn method used by OSS ect.) with that High Standard when I was 14 or so!

A .22 long rifle revolver is an excellent training device. Such a handgun can be most useful as a small game gun. It is certainly better than a wishful thought as a home defense tool. However, using such a firearm while attempting to pass as a ‘gunfighter’ is just plain silly. The ‘Gunhawk’ holster he built to do his quick draw or fast draw (I never can remember which is which) is not useful for any other purpose. Making a loud noise with a .22 blank drawn from a specific holster in a short period of time may impress folks; but it’s not much of a useful real world skill.

…his description of a New York police detective's personal revolver; a Colt New Service in .45 ACP; shooting a reload of a huge bullet, near 300 grains of lead SWC at over 900 feet per second.

I don't know about the bullet, it IS possible as I get 800+ fps with a 286 cast .45 AR load in my new Services.

One of the ‘problems’ (giving me some hilarity) from the book was the description of the load changed from text to caption. The other was Gaylord’s claim about how much stronger Colt revolvers were than S&Ws. Frankly, any load at a pressure level dangerous in any reputable firearm made from the ‘30s on is dangerous in any other.

Just for correspondence sake, my load for 45 AR, shot out of a S&W 1917 revolver changed into a ‘Fitz’ style snubby is a 250 lead SWC at somewhere in the low 800s. I used to use a dose of Unique, but I’m going to have to rework the load for WW231. It prints nice clean big holes and regulates to the sights out to about 25-30 yards. It’s not a maximum pressure load either, so it’s not hard on the revolver as well as fairly fast to recover for multiple targets.

… NYPD detective was my Uncle Gil … he left me his Real Fitz New Service … (complete with lead weighted butt)…

Wow! Was that a real FitzGerald gun? If so, that is a nice piece of history. I don’t recall Gaylord’s book mentioning the lead weighted butt, but it makes sense from a control standpoint. From a carrying standpoint it’s a bit of a negative, but one can’t have everything.
Yes, the name “Gil” rings a bell. I must confess it’s been several years since I read the book last. If your uncle lived long enough to retire and give you his revolver, he must have done something right. Don’t transfer my amusement at Gaylord's expense to your honored uncle.

I really think the couple Gaylord, signed, holster I STILL have since the early 60's are VERY comparable to anything available today.

I’m sure the holster is worthwhile as a historical and collectable artifact. I collect holsters, after a fashion; especially those with a law enforcement intent. What guns do these holsters fit, and are they belt holsters or concealment rigs? And, just out of curiosity, Gordo, what do you do for a living?

 

[tipoc]

On the origins of the 1911 and how it was carried see see Bady's work "Colt Automatic Pistols", Ezell " Handguns of the World", and Smith and Smith "Small Arms of the World". The calvary had the dominant say in the piece in it's developmental stages. Jeff Cooper has also written quite a bit on early modes of carry and training.

Hammer down on an empty chamber was and is today the preferred method of carrying a SAA by Colt or a clone of Colt.

Gaylord was well respected by his contemporaires both as a holster designer, gunsmith and shootist. There is a great deal to learn from his book.

An inexperienced and arrogant phycisist these days might read Einstein and think "What a bunch of dated and obviously humorous crap". He'd be wrong. So someone reading Gaylord today might say the same. They'd be wrong also.

Colt revolvers are still considered today as being stronger than S&Ws in their lock up. But they have always been harder to work on and more prone to going out of time and once out of time harder to repair. In decades past more smiths knew how to repair them as well. Nowdays most gunsmiths are entirely unfamiliar with Colt wheelguns.

Read John Taffin or Mike Venturino on .45 Colt loads at 300 grains at 900 fsp. This is do able. 250 grains at 900 fps is common.

By 1946 the U.S. military began looking for a DA auto to replace the 1911 in part due to accidents in it's handling. GIs carried it a number of ways. Hammer down on an empty chamber, hammer down on a loaded chamber, on the half cock notch, etc. Rarely cocked and locked. For the military this was a problem.

These methods of carrying the 1911 wern't and are not "tricks" they are techniques. Some better than others. The 1911 man learns his piece.

Gaylord did not like autos much. Neither did Elmer Keith or Bill Jordan. Neither did most Americans till the late '70s and 80s.

tipoc

 

[gordo b.]

Archie: I think I am beginning to see your perspective, and it is reasonable. The Design of Gaylord holsters was only remarkable in the concealment designs , which were very close to what Alessi sells today. The executuin was VERY good, but not as godd as Milt's nor Nelson's , Bell Charter Oak stuff is not quite as well made as a Gaylord/Seventrees.
The Lead Weighted Butt was to slap people in the skull,according to my LONG departed uncle. Maybe that's why the cylinder wouldn't close without aligning it carefully!
Listen; Chick Gaylord's time was the 50's-EARLY 60's. When I went plainclothes while still in the military in 1970-he was history, and his stuff dated. When I was a genuine Gubbamint Agency sworn agent in 1975 his little scabbard for a Colt Cobra he made me in early 60's still was field a couple years though!
Since 1983 I have only been a reserve officer for a local agency . My business, that I own, is Diesel Fuel Injection service it's a strange world!

 

[Jack Malloy]

If you have ever handled an original model 1911 as opposed to the a-1, you will find that the thumb safety is almost impossible to use, as its very, very small, not at all like even the standard "mil spec" safeties of today which are huge in comparison. The original was flat against the slide and only had a minor tab sticking out towards the end, and not very far at that. its even harder to use than the old style Browning High Power safety...
You also find that the original 1911 had a super wide hammer, roughly the same size as a Smith N frame target hammer and a smaller grip safety tang.

Basically the rest of what you said was true. It was designed for cavalrymen to carry in a flap rig hammer down on a LOADED chamber. The grip safety was an add on. That was in the field. Around base the gun was traditionally carried hammer down on an empty chamber.
Up till the 70s actually, many 1911 fanciers carried hammer down on a live round in the chamber and even hammmer on half cock over a loaded chamber, which is why colt changed the half cock notch to an intercept.

Bill Jordon was not necissarily anti-auto. He discusses autos in No Second Place Winner and he points out that the autos of his day were not reliable with lead bullets and that FMJ ammo didnt have enough stopping power for law enforcement use.
Jordon noted (and had a photo of his own) the 1911 could be had with bigger sights, a custom extended thumb safety and the grip safety tied down and that it could be modified to handle hollowpoints and lead bullets but that the expense of doing all that to each gun made it too cost prohibitive for most departments.

I read Handgunners Guide last summer. Gaylord points out that the 1911 commes into it's own as a gun for clearing dark alleys as you can lay down a volley of fire and reload rapidly.
While some of what is in both books is outdated today, there is still much valuable information you can glean from them and they are well worth reading especialy if you are a revolver man.

Something to remember. We had high capacity autos and assault rifles in the 50s and 60s. Its just nobody in Hollywood new about these "high tech weapons of death."
So movies and tv shows generally featured .38s and riot guns.

And cops trained for real life contingencies. Like pulling over a speeder and winding up in a shootout. Or handling a prowl call and getting shot at by a sniper.
In those REAL LIFE situations being able to draw and fire and hit what you aimed at RAPIDLY was much more conducive to officer safety than the idea of having to fire 46 round in less than a minute.
In the late sixties there were concerns about types we would call Terorrists today carrying machine guns and machine pistols and being "outgunned" with the then standard .38. Speedloaders came along along with the popularity of Magnum rounds and you did not hear too much concern about being "outgunned" for some time afterwords.
(It can be downright educational to read old Gun books from the seventies).
Some departments did experiment with 1911s, High Powers and the then new S&W 59s. But the revolver stayed pretty much in the running till the early to mid 80s.....
What happened?

Movies like Lethal Weapon and Die Hard and tv shows like Miami Vice seem to have been the predominant factor in the switchover from autos to revolvers as then and now, most real life gunfights are over after three rounds have been fired and take place at a distance of ten feet or less.



Jack the Literary Critic for The Firing Line....

LOL...


>>>he gun was designed for mounted calvary troops and meant to carried in a full flap military holster and carried hammer down on an empty chamber. When drawn the slide was racked and the safety put on till you needed to fire. Once done firing the safety was put back on.<<<

 

[ClarkEMyers]

Yes indeed there are those who speak well of Mr. Gaylord

There was a real famous guy in the sixties named Chic Gaylord. As some of his customers say, he had the hands of a craftsman, the eye of an aartist and the mind of a scientist. He majored in art in college and after graduation worked as a cartoonist for the famous Peter Arne[ sic actually Arno I think], dean of American cartoonists. He finally went on his own and in his shop on West 47nth St NYC he began to develope the finest holsters for law enforcement people. He never advertised as his fame came from word of mouth. He also became known in those days to be the top man in combat shootng. He made holsters for every type situation and all type pistols. He once put on a demo with 17 weapons concealed on his body. I had the pleasure of meeting him a number of times when a friend in law enforcement asked me to go.
..........................

Austin Behlert
Pistolsmith, retired.[deceased]

Gaylod was quite a guy. I remember talking to him a few times on the phone when I was playing around making holsters for myself, and a few cop friends.
He spent a lot of time talking about design, the benefits of heavy thread for stitching, and properly molding a gun to a holster.
In those days, he used real guns to mold the holsters. Today, it's just not possible with all the different manufacturers, models, and variations of the same model available.

Not many people realize it, but Chic passed away about 10 years ago. He was in a nursing home until his death. One of his good friends, Lefty Lewis, a retired NYPD Detective, and holster maker, used to visit him regularly.

Chic certainly was the father of the concealment holster as we know it today.

Lou
_________________
Alessi Holsters, Inc.
You'll never know it's there, until you need it..

.....I can't take credit for the originality of that design. It's actually an old Chic Gaylord design that he called 'The Dragoon', and was intended as a cross draw holster worn on the belt with large heavy guns.
I adapted it to a shoulder rig back in the mid seventies, and it has been a popular hunting rig for many of our customers for almost 30 years now. We've made minor changes over the years, but essentially it is the basic Gaylord design..
........

Lou
_________________
Alessi Holsters, Inc.
You'll never know it's there, until you need it..

......Actually Chic Gaylord was the first holster maker to use a pull through snap on his holsters. Later, Paris Theodore also used it frequently on many of his designs.
I believe I was the first maker to design a shoulder rig with the pull through snap in the trigger guard though. That was in the early 70's.
....

[emphasis added]

Lou
_________________
Alessi Holsters, Inc.
You'll never know it's there, until you need it..

I'm not going to quote some of the folks who have been a little bit less in the public eye - though as an exercise for the reader there are quite public endorsements by truly well qualified people who carried a gun in odd places for Uncle Sam and from some of the early IPSC people - in some cases the same people.

If anybody really thinks I'm fabricating these quotes PM me. If you're not impressed by Luigi and Austin and their work we have nothing much to say to each other. They may be mistaken but they really are primary sources.

 

[ClarkEMyers]

Another example of his dismal lack of knowledge shows in his discussion of carrying a automatic with a round chambered, in the form of a 1911 Government Model. Gaylord presents, as ‘…the way to do it…’ a reverse twist holster which mandates the user pass the muzzle of the gun past his own body, as he is cocking the hammer. Okay, in those days few men carried a 45 auto cocked and locked – and from Gaylord’s devotion to revolvers, I’m sure he would have had fits at the mere suggestion – it does not take much thought to prefer a straight draw holster which does not cross the user’s body. Even in the ‘50s we knew about that sort of thing.

I can't speak for how many but there have always been some who carried a 1911 cocked and even unlocked depending on time and place.

I myself was no doubt much too influenced by Mr. Gaylord as I have been known long ago and far away to carry a 1911 cavalry draw - in my limited experience if I'm frex in the back of a restaurant booth with a loose table shoved into my admittedly loose gut so I need to present if at all from such a cramped seated position and can't just dive under the table a cavalry draw allows both a better seated draw and a better weak hand draw than my current more relaxed carry of an Alessi GWH (weak hand draw behind the back and I'll be waving the muzzle all over there is no Utopia). Fortunately for all concerned I never had to do it but I did agree with Mr. Gaylord as to the utility from awkward positions. Today I'd need a special accomodation to present from a belted-in position in a typical small car - I'm impressed by the Horseshoe velcro model for special situations myself. Again today a contingency unlikely to arise but quite different from an upright uniformed Sam Brown belt carry or a Jordan Holster or.......

I'm by no means defending the book - which today is a curiosity piece - but I was impressed by a few things and my betters who started out smarter than I ever was were more impressed by more things.

On the historical use of the 1911 I suggest inter alia the 1940 edition of FM23-35 Automatic Pistol, Caliber 45....... available for easy viewing at http://www.sightm1911.com/manual/manual.htm

 

[Doug.38PR]

Why wasn't cocked and locked considered good practice back in the 50s and 60s? I mean what did people back then figure the lock switch was for?

 

[Jack Malloy]

In the fifties and sixties the revolver was considered to be the nea plus ultra of combat handguns....


There are a couple of factors.
One is that law enforcement officers were more concerned with speed of the draw on the first shot. And of course the handle of a revolver sticks out and makes for a faster draw than an auto draw, and there was no safety to fumble with.
Secondly the revolver was considered more reliable. Remember, the shooters of the 50s and 60s grew up with IMPORTED military surpluss autoloaders, many of which were produced by slaves in wartime conditions against their will, and were not as reliable as the pre-war autos from the same makers were.
So a lot of .32s and .9mms from German controlled countries were prone to malfs and breakages. Some people just assumed that this meant that all autos were that way. They did not stop and think, "Hey, this gun was made by a captive in a plant against his will."
Also, in an era of the DA revolver the idea of a gun with a cocked hammer in the holster would have given a lot of people the willies.

Remember, in the teens and 20s a lot of cops carried autopistols for awhile. Some like the Colt model 1903 pocket models had no exposed hammer and to be ready for action you had little choice but cocked and locked.
At that time LE was still getting used to revolvers that cocked themselves so an autoloader was not that big of a deal.

 

[tipoc]

Jack, I may have stretched a point saying that Gaylord, Jordan, Keith etc. "didn't like autos much" it would have been more accurate had I said that they preferred wheelguns (though Jordan referred to autos as "ammo burners", "jamamatics", etc.). Gaylord and Keith considered them specialized weapons for either concealment (Gaylord, the Walther PPK) or as Keith did, praise the accuracy of the Luger but considere the 9mm ball ammo available at the time as good only for a battlefield and not so good for hunting or self defense.

We should say that these were the opinions of experienced shooters from a particular generation who were familiar with both U.S. made and imported guns. Among the broader population there was a general impression that autos were less reliable than revolvers. They were also specialized. Pocket guns like the Colt M1903, hideout pieces like the Browning .25s and .32s. But for serious work a wheelgun was preferred.

For the first half of the last century leverguns were the American rifle of choice. The popularity of bolt action rifles was slow to grow and only took off in the period tween the wars and in the 50s. Semi auto rifles for hunting and sport have only come into the picture the the last 30 years or so. There were exceptions to this (the BAR and Remington) but in general they were few.

"back then what did people think the lock was for?"

It was used the same then as today only probably more so. Think of how you use the safety other than for carrying in a good holster cocked and locked. Same.

Firearm tactics have evolved over the last century a good deal. From the gunfighters of the old west (and East who had their techniques too) to McGivern, to Fairbain and Sykes, The OSS and the FBI, to Jeff Cooper (who popularized carrying cocked and locked) and popularized two handed combat shooting, to these days. Along the way old techniques are sometimes forgotten or rediscovered.

Reding the old texts is always rediscovering our past and is useful.

tipoc