1911 Condition 2 carry ..Good idea, bad idea, luke warm idea.

T

tree

New member
I imagine that this has been covered many of times, but I am curious.

Often times, folks are hung up on condition one C&L carry on a 1911. While I understand it is perfectly safe with existing safeties designed, it still is a mental thing for many. (Don't tell anyone but I kinda feel weird about it)
If immediate harm was perceived, I would carry this way. However, I am not in law enforcement or military, and I do not hang out in BAD places. Yes I do recognize crime can occur anywhere at any time.

When I go afield with my Para P-12, I do so in fanny pack in condition 3. I just feel I'll most often have time to unholster & jack a round. This is how I train at the range.

However there is the possibility of carrying in condition 2.
I know a police chief that carries his duty 1911 like this. He is no flunkie, and is infact a reputable firearms instructor.

So Please let me know how you feel about carrying in condition 2. What are the pros & cons? I think I know them, but I would appreciate this subject being flushed out.

Thanks.
 
The 1911 was designed and produced to be carried in Condition 1. It is safer to carry it cocked and locked than it is to lower the hammer on a loaded chamber.
 
Rob96,

I felt the same way. It didn't feel safe carrying a c&l 1911. But, when you think about it, c&l is safer than a chambered Glock or Sig with no external safety. I sold my Glock because I felt unsafe carrying it without an external safety. After shooting only 1911s for the past year, I'm now comfortable with condition 1. The manual of arms becomes instinctive and c&l starts to feel comfortable. In a real encounter fractions of seconds will count. Fumbling with racking a slide and hoping that the bullet will feed can cost you. At least with c&l you KNOW that there's a bullet in the chamber ready to go. In the WORST case feeding scenario you'll get one shot off.

One of the problems I see is that some people who regularly shoot different kinds of guns never get totally comfortable with just one. It's not a problem if your main goal is range fun, but if it's concealed carry your instincts and muscle memory will play an important part in a stress situation.
 
If you are uncomfortable with a cocked and locked 1911 you should switch to another type of firearm action that you are comfortable with.Cocked and locked is the most effective way to carry a 1911.My 1911s are cocked and locked 24/7.BILLG
 
I'll join the chorus, bad idea. I carry my Colt Mustang Pocketlite C&L (condition 1). If I felt the need to carry something with the hammer down, I'd buy another gun. I don't often carry my 1911's, but C&L is the only way when I do.
 
Little Confused

Hey guys, I know very littly about handguns.. Starting to pick up more and more on this site though, Man I love this place.. Anyways.. Tell me if if I am right?

Condition Three, Empty Chamer
Condtion Two, Loaded Chamber, Hammder down
Condition One, Loaded Chamber, Cocked and locked.

IS this right? If not could someone offer an explanation? This is where I am confused. I don't know mucha about 1911's but, How can Conditon one be safer than condtion two? It doesn't make sense to me. I wish the search was working. Thanks for your help guys.

-Jared
 
Pvt Joker,

You have the conditions correct.

The reason condition 2 is inherently less safe than condition 1 is the manual lowering of the hammer (without the aid of a de-cocker) over a live chambered round. The process to condition 2 requires that you achieve condition 1 (without the safety being engaged) and then intentionally pull the trigger while manually controlling the hammer. This introduces the very real opportunity for a negligent discharge. Then you have to cock the rather small hammer if you want to shoot, which introduces yet another opportunity for discharge and a real opportunity to get youself killed by the threat that caused you to draw. C2 is the WORST of the three carry modes for a 1911.

Condition 3, while slower than condition 1, is an acceptable alternative if you ALWAYS practice that way. The Israeli Military uses C3 as a standard carry mode (or so I've read). Jacking the slide must become reflex for this method to be even remotely usable.

C1 is the way the 1911 is designed and built to be carried and, like others have said, if it makes someone nervous then they have simply chosen the wrong tool for their task.

tree,

Not to cast doubt on someone else's ability but, as an instructor myself, I would be reluctant to consider another instructor who carried his own 1911 in C2 to be reputable in the good sense of the word. He ought to be packing a Beretta! If you look hard enough you will find "so-called" instructors who will profess just about anything. Be careful...

Mikey
 
further questions

So condition 2 is principally bad because of the need to drop a hammer "in a controlled" fashion so as to not discharge the pistol.

If this dangerous event is negotiated sucessfully, is there any other further danger?

If there is, what is it?

Is there a chance the bullet could be discharged if the hammer accidently moves forward as if it was impacted ie by dropping on the ground?

Is there further danger ie: in an attempt to pull back the hammer and it slips and falls against the firing pin?
Or is there a half cock safety on the 1911's?


As I noted above, I would carry condition 1 if I was in a position where I felt I needed that imediate deployment.
But in as much as I carry in condition 3, and train at the range deploying and loading from my fanny pack, I feel quite comfortable with that carry method. The obvious disadvantage to condition 3 is you need two hands, a bit more time, and your movements are more readily observable.

I was always just curious about condition 2. I thank you for your information.

I might consider another pistol, its just that a 1911 is what I carried in service, and its what I know and like to shoot.
 
If I had a 1911, I would carry it in condition one. In fact, I had my Glock 26 modified to emulate a 1911 in condition one. In anticipation of the question, I had the 3.5lb connector, and reduced power trigger spring installed. That, plus a polish job on the internals, yielded a pistol that is as close to the 1911 W/O being one, as a Glock gets. In anticipation of yet another question, no I do not like 1911's.
 
tree,

you ask:

Is there a chance the bullet could be discharged if the hammer accidently moves forward as if it was impacted ie by dropping on the ground?

No. The 1911 has an inertia (shorter than the housing) firing pin and would have to be struck with force from it's natural rearward position to overcome spring tension.

Is there further danger ie: in an attempt to pull back the hammer and it slips and falls against the firing pin?

Yes. If, in the heat of the moment (under attack), you happened to have your finger on the trigger at the time. Like racking the slide, this manuver would usually require two hands as well.

Or is there a half cock safety on the 1911's?

Yes there is. It will only protect against an accidental hammer fall when the trigger is not involved, like a dropped gun while off safe. If the trigger is pulled (as when lowering hammer for C2) the gun WILL fire if the hammer slips and contacts the firing pin.

Mikey
 
I don't like condition 2 carry. Besides getting the hammer down on a loaded chamber safely, with the hammer down it is easier to have an AD by dropping the gun or having a blow to the hammer than in condition 1. Why, well in condition 1, the firing pin has to gain enough inertia to over come the firing pin spring to ignite the primer. In condtion 2, a good forward blow to the hammer could drive the hammer to the pin and AD. This is applicable to non-80 series guns only.

I like condition 1 or 3. 3 is very safe and I bet about the same speed as condition 2. Plus, over condition 2 condition 3 requires the gross motor skills of racking the slide back vs. the fine motor skill of thumbing the hammer.

Condition 1 is safe for the 1911 with PROPER GUN HANDLEING and a good holster.

If you really like the hammer down for carry, consider a USP 45 Compact. 1911 safety plus DA, 8 rounds, good grip size, polymer lightness and supreme reliability.
 
I have a CZ75 that I carry sometimes. I'll let the hammer down on a live round because I can fire the first round double action. I'll practice letting the hammer down on an empty chamber so I feel comfortable enough to do it before attempting letting the hammer down on a live round. I keep the gun pointed in a safe direction and the hammer has not slipped yet. But there is always the possibility.

The CZ can be carried cock and lock like the 1911, but I don't feel comfortable with this without the addition of a grip safety. It would have been nicer to have bought a decocker model, but that is in hindsight.

I like my CZ as it has never malfunctioned once since I bought it with different loads and bullet weights.
 
Condition 2 is a very bad idea. You have to use both hands to cock the hammer safely, and the hammer resting on a loaded chamber bypasses every safety system built into the 1911.
 
I have a CZ75 that I carry sometimes. I'll let the hammer down on a live round because I can fire the first round double action. I'll practice letting the hammer down on an empty chamber so I feel comfortable enough to do it before attempting letting the hammer down on a live round. I keep the gun pointed in a safe direction and the hammer has not slipped yet. But there is always the possibility.

The CZ can be carried cock and lock like the 1911, but I don't feel comfortable with this without the addition of a grip safety. It would have been nicer to have bought a decocker model, but that is in hindsight.

I like my CZ as it has never malfunctioned once since I bought it with different loads and bullet weights.
 
Pvt Joker asked,

Anyways.. Tell me if if I am right?

Condition Three, Empty Chamer
Condtion Two, Loaded Chamber, Hammder down
Condition One, Loaded Chamber, Cocked and locked.

Actually, as I recall back in the old days, cocked and locked was referred to as Condition 1-A. Condition 1 was cocked and unlocked.

FWIW, I always carry my Detonics in Condition 1 BUT always in a thumb-break holster with the safety strap between the hammer and firing pin.
 
Thanks for your assistance.
I'll stick with condition 3 unless I feel the need to move to condition 1.

I'll leave condition 2 to other pistols adequately equipped with decocker or double actions.

Tree
 
psp, in Condition 2 the hammer is in contact with the firing pin. The danger is not a blow from the rear, but dropping the gun on its muzzle in such a way (or from such a height), that the firing pin overcomes the FP spring and contacts the primer with enough force to fire the gun. This is what the S80 safety is supposed to prevent. That's also why keeping the gun on half-cock is so bad; the hammer can be struck in such a way as to fire the gun (not the case in either C1 or C2), and you still have to manually cock the hammer to fire. I can't cock a 1911 when I have the gun in a firing grip, so one must draw, cock, then acquire your firing grip, all under the worst (potentially) possible conditions. Tests by the military, and an independent test of which I'm aware, proved that the gun must land directly on its muzzle to fire, that it must be dropped from a height much higher than a drop from the hand to the ground, and that the 1911 rarely lands on its muzzle if dropped.
 
Browning design

Politically Incorrect,
I understand your hesitancy to not carry without the grip safety, but as an interesting note, Browning didn't design the 1911 to have a grip safety, that was added at the Army's request. If a single safety was good enough for Browning--well you know the rest.
 
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